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  Isandlwana cultural centre

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ChrisM



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:57 am

Has anyone done any research into WHO will be staying in these monstrosities ?
Certainly NOT the locals
Zulu Royalty -- once or twice when it is commemoration time.

Overseas visitors -- most probably ?

Does this mean the end for the all the older more established lodges ( who already suffer from crime and a sense of envy )

This plan must be fought on economic lines
As long as ALL you bunch let it be known that you will NOT be staying there it may bring some financial and economic logic to the table.

BTW ; I see Ken has now been elevated ? Has he been given an honorary Doctorate ?
I have seen him with a huge pile of papers
but
He is playing this one close to the chest .......
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:10 am

Kens doing some sterling work for us Chris. There have been a number of objections lodged from forum members.
Incidentally iSandlawana lodge is on the market, could it would it be a fitting alternate? Just saying.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:16 pm

Dear Frank,

Thank you very much for sending through your comments on the proposed Isandlwana Affirmation Village development. Your comments and objection are noted and will be incorporated into the Final Basic Assessment Report which is to be submitted to the Department of Economic Development, Tourism and Environmental Affairs (DEDTEA) during mid August, for assessment.

Please do not hesitate to contact me should you have any queries.

Kind Regards,

Phillipa Harrison
ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT PRACTITIONER
PhD Geog Sci (UKZN), IAIA, IWMSA




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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:46 pm

Frank,

Obviously a standard response to all objectors.

JY.

Dear John,

Thank you very much for sending through your comments on the proposed
Isandlwana Affirmation Village development. Your comments and objection are
noted and will be incorporated into the Final Basic Assessment Report which
is to be submitted to the Department of Economic Development, Tourism and
Environmental Affairs (DEDTEA) during mid August, for assessment.

Please do not hesitate to contact me should you have any queries.

Kind Regards,

Phillipa Harrison
ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT PRACTITIONER
PhD Geog Sci (UKZN), IAIA, IWMSA
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:10 pm

Spot on John Y, so typical of these type of people, they just send the same response to everyone.

I suppose that 'noted and incorporated' actually means 'chucked in the bin'.

And what the hell is an 'Environmental Assessment Practitioner' when it's at home? scratch
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:21 pm

Hi John
Sure Im under no illusion that I had been singled out for a response. I posted the letter for the forums interest, purely information sharing.
Martin
Take pity on the young lady, she is a professional and is doing what she has been commissioned to do. An EI Study is a requirement on any major development in South Africa, that includes any possible controversial project.

Regards
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:08 am

Hi Springy, no, I am not getting at the lass, I am just wondering if the fancy title of her job is just another way of saying she is another cog in the wheel to some big wig boss further up the ladder, or if it is left up to her to decide the fate of iSandlwana, if it is the latter, then I hope she makes the right decision and stops this, or at least moves it well away from the battlefield.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:23 am

Morning Martin.
Her report will be sent to DEDTEA along with reports from the architects and motivation from the developers. Her report will contain all the objections and the EIA. Where there are issues such as Heritage laws affecting the graves she will have pointed those out. As you can probably guess Ive done quite a few of these in the past in my day time job as a property developer.
We just have to wait and see however if the Heritage committee decide for or against. Hopefully against the development.
A key motivation for the development is going to be the issue of job creation, for the building and also the future running and upkeep. This area of Zulu land is incredibly poor, you really can have no inkling how deprived the area is so any possibility of bring work/income to the village will more than outweigh any argument on aesthetics and history that we can provide. I have however sent in a separate study based on two circumstances; Firstly buying the iSandlwana Lodge and converting that and secondly transposing the proposed development onto the ridge.
Lets wait and see what happens.
Cheers Mate
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N.B.Forrest

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:39 am

Frank Allewell wrote:
The firing line just before the knuckle where a huge slaughter took place and this is where the idiots want to build. There are a lot of ancestors that will be upset about this and I predict a couple of the local Sangomas will be calling up the odd Tokalosh or two. In fact I will bloody well pay there professional fees.

Strange as it may seem, this may be the best bet!
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:27 pm

Hi Frank.

I have no objection whatsoever at the poor people improving their impoverished lives, and would indeed wish them all well.

My concern is that this project could ruin the whole nature of the sacred place, especially if it desecrates the graves of the brave men that fought there.

That is a good idea of yours to buy the lodge and turn that into the cultural centre, it makes more sense than to build a blot on the landscape eyesore which would spoil the whole essence of the battlefield and the area around it.

Cheers mate. Salute
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:42 pm

Hi Martin
The idea came from Ken Gillings, Ive merely reinforced it with some facts and figures.
It makes a lot of sense, and saves a lot of money. Plus gets it away from the battlefield.

Cheers mate
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:55 pm

But it wouldn't Create as many Jobs.
Is there going to be an education section, where the famous battle can be taught to those visiting the centre!
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:47 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Hi Martin
The idea came from Ken Gillings, Ive merely reinforced it with some facts and figures.
It makes a lot of sense, and saves a lot of money. Plus gets it away from the battlefield.

Cheers mate

Hi Frank.

Well mate, you are both helping in that respect, and it is a really good idea. It would give the Lodge a new lease of life and would create a few jobs referbishing the Lodge and perhaps adding an extra building or two to cater for visitors etc.

Don't give up Springy, keep at 'em Marra. agree
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:16 pm

Hi John
I can only compare with the centres at Blood river and Ondini. They employ locals as guides, attendants cleaners etc. I don't recall the exact figures but at a lecture I attended a few years back there was an intimation that one person working in a family supports something in the region of 12 people so 30 people working would make a huge difference. I addition would be the possible 'hotel' and conference centre. As I said earlier I would fully support the concept my only objection is the location.
martin
We can but try.

Cheers
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barry

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PostSubject: Control of battlefields and graves   Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:44 am

Hi  All,
South African heritage sites, (including war graves and battlefields) are all  strictly controlled in South Africa and no changes, in any form to them, are legal unless approved by SAHRA ( S.A. Heritage Resource association). They are the final arbiters on any proposed developments. The office is in Pietermaritzburg and Mrs Ros Devereau is the contact person. She can be contacted on the following email address;  built.envro@amafapmb.co.za
However  SAHRA depends very much on the public input and support, if it is to fight a case. So, contact Ros and lodge your concerns.
Like many others, my belief is that much of the Isandlwana battlefield is very hallowed ground  where there was much blood spilt, by both sides, ie friends and foe on 22/01/79, and the battlefield should be retained in its orginal state, if it is to remain a special place. It is already one of great interest to tourists which naturally gives employment to the local people.
This should not stop the building of a cultural centre however , only that it must be sited with great care, or better still, that existing buildings be converted to that new purpose.

regards

barry
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:46 pm

I was rather lucky this morning and managed to get time on local radio to highlight the development. In view of the furore caused by the Presidents spending at Nkandla ( a few kilometres down the road) it seems to have generated a few comments. Hopefully it will be taken forward next week, I have been invited into the studios for an interview, hopefully they will put me up against the developers.
We can only hope.

Cheers
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Ken Gillings



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:57 pm

Good evening everyone. We're crossing everything that's crossable that there will be a win-win situation with this circus, but I'm afraid the politicians were running rampant with the project.
That said, however, the ANC has been blasted out of the area and the Municipality has been retaken by the IFP in the nationwide municipal elections, so anything can happen. Exciting things are occurring in the "Land of Heaven".
By the way, I'm terribly flattered to read in the document that I have been promoted to a Doctor, but I haven't been informed yet..!
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:02 am

I have a meeting on Monday afternoon with one of the cultural advisors, that KwaCulture have been speaking to.

Should anything come of the meeting I will let the forum know.

John Y.
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Ken Gillings



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:42 am

Thanks John. This was clearly a Zuma special. There is another possibility of a win-win situation but I've been asked to keep it under wraps.
Regards, Ken
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:20 pm

Ken,

I will drop you an e-mail.

John Y.
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:27 pm

EIA for the isandlwana development. It has been approved.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:54 am

Admin,

It is still possible to have your voice heard by appealing against the decision.

I will forward details to you.

I had an all day meeting with kwaCulture on Friday, there are other building plans afoot not too far from the battlefield which I fear maybe far worse. A triumphal arch and shopping mall were mentioned.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:17 am

The moral of the story is for anyone wishing to visit the battlefield do it now rather than later. Durnfords donga has been virtually destroyed by the new stream bridge that is big enough to cross the Thames. The further planned developments plus the service upgrades on the table for the village are not exactly going to improve the ambience that is so apparent there at present.
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Cultural Centre    Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:52 pm

Hi Frank
Spot on mate , that bridge is a monstrosity , I've been here since the 2nd April , yet to see anyone working on it !.
Hopefully the Cultural Centre will take years ! . That will probably appear before Christmas , if anyone is thinking of coming here , do it NOW , while it still looks similar to 1879 .
90th
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:18 pm

I can understand the up-set this is going to course. But from a Zulu point of view what are the benefits to them if they go ahead with the proposed plans. After all they also have a future to consider.
Just a personal observation.
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:00 pm

Actually John you make a very good point!, who will benefit from
these developments.. in theory a cultural centre would seem to
be on the face of it a very good idea... but again i ask what is the
demographic?. just follow the money.. and all will be revealed i
suspect.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:07 am

John,

I have sent an e-mail to Gugu from kwaCulture and asked her for a quote to explain the benefits to the local community that the centre will afford them.

When I have her response I will share it with the forum.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:25 am

I remember the validation for the centre at Blood River, museum, conference centre accomadation etc. Never been used since completion, it gives work to two people, a cashier who doesn't issue a ticket and permanently has no change and a so called guide.
There is just no money in that impoverished community to sustain any form of large shop. The jobs created for building works will be mostly given to imported skilled labour. The minor amount of unskilled jobs will dissipate very quickly.
The villagers need manufacturing, factories etc. Theres a perfect location for that a very short distance away, close to the main road. Even a supermarket there would serve the three other local villages and provide a certain amount of work.
The whole issues is far to political.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:09 am

Surly they will take into account it wasn't just British that died on the Battlefield.
If the tourist visits to the Battlefields stop would this have a large negative effect on the locals, or will the centre out weight what the tourist revenue brings.
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nitro450

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:05 am

A similar thing, without the accommodation and camping ground was built by the National Trust at Culloden where the English and Scots clashed finally in 1746. It was a peaceful little battlefield and now it has been turned into a bit of a circus in my eyes. I asked "Why don't you make it into a musical ?" I'll never go back despite my clan connection to the area. They are charging more to get in but I believe they can't enforce it. A charge is also made to enter the Glenfinnan Monument, which I think is a bit poor. Your aren't charged a fee to enter War Memorial in Austtalia.


This monstrosity as it has been referred to will destroy Isandlwana for all time. Disgraceful:x
Nitro450.

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:46 pm

WW1 Battlefield's are being turned into car parks and shopping centres.
Look we won't stop it. The Bown envelope  is going to the decision makers, who don't give a crap about the British dead or Zulu. They are what they are selfish morons who only think about themselves and what they can make out of it. So I say with passion, May their ears turn to arseholes and crap all over their shoulders.

And yes I feel a lot better than I did a year or so go. Just a little blip in my life circle.

To all the British and Zulu warriors who fell at Isandlwana, I say to you " They know not what they do"
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:44 am

Yeah, agreed, i wont mention ' the c word '..anything to help the locals can
only be beneficial right..?. these developments will of course obliterate for
ever the relatively unspoiled battlefield that we have known so long... i
think the area should be considered sacrosanct, but obviously the people
driving this along have know from the very beginning that their application
would succeed and would come to fruition...shame!. my dream that one day
i would go and stand in isolation and contemplate this battle on the very
ground it was fought is lost to me forever... i hope some of the locals secure
employment going forward i really do.
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Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:26 am

We can count ourselves fortunate that Isandlwana was the only headline battle where the Zulus had a significant victory. Hopefully the many other intact battlefields in South Africa will escape the attention of "developers".
Brett
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:45 am

Its not all doom and gloom. The battlefield itself is sacrosanct, and I hope will always be. The villages on the periphery will continue to grow and civilization will gradually overtake the rural atmosphere. The battlefield and its ambience of early 60,s when I first went there is long gone, but the main area hasn't changed at all. Its still a highly visitable area and I wouldn't for a second discourage visitors.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:16 am

I am going to be a little controversial and say that more than a hint of romanticism is creeping in to all of this. Battlefields are primarily ugly places and while the dead must be properly commemorated the ground itself must be allowed to recover and become productive for the local population. The battlefields of France were seas of mud and desolation but are now returned to the highly productive farms they once were. The cemeteries of the fallen are oases of quiet and solitude. Urban battlefields around the world are eventually returned to places where people can live - should Iraq and Syria be left as they now are just because they are battlefields? I too condemn the greed and corruption that can occur but lets not have some rose tinted view.

Steve
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:27 am

Steve when are you going to drink grown up wine instead of that Rose rubbish?
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:26 pm

Frank, how are you my friend. I find my ability to pontificate on almost anything is much improved by judicious quantities of fermented grape of any hue.

Steve
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Wed May 10, 2017 10:24 am

An update:
Various people have submitted objections to the 'Palace' as its now been revealed. Its no longer intended as a Hotel/Guest House/ Museum but will be for the exclusive use of King Zwelithini and his family.
Ian Knight managed to persuade a reporter friend to do an article in the Sunday Times. A very well written article that has provoked some reaction.
Paul Marais launched a scathing attack, brilliantly worded, in his objection.
Unfortunatly because of Photbuckets vagarities I'm unable to post the article concerned. However attached is a letter from The Cape Times that has evoked a response from the Governments ruling party. For the moment I will keep that under wraps until I can see what will transpire.
The fight goes on.

Cape Times
An open letter to the AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS

Dear Sirs
In 1879 the British Government on the flimsiest of excuses illegally invaded Zululand and the kingdom of Cetshwayo ka Mpande
On the 22nd January at a hill known as iSandlwana 12 miles inside the Kingdoms borders the invading British column under lord Chelmsford felt the full might of Cetshwayo’s impi. A force in the camp of some 1600 men were attacked by 20 000 Zulus under the leadership of Ntshingwayo kaMahole
The Zulu were mown down in their thousands and were about to give up the attack.
A regimental commander ran to the front of the attacking regiments and exhorted them to charge with the words “the little branch of leaves never ordered this”. He was shot dead by the British but the Regiments took heart and charged overwhelming the British. There were few survivors from that army, some 50 souls managed to escape across country through the fugitive’s drift into Natal.
That body of that man the inkosi of the Biyela people, Mkhosana ka Mvundlana and thousands of his men could not be removed and taken away because of the sheer numbers of killed and wounded in that magnificent victory.
The battlefield is still as it was 138 years ago with its desolation its piles of cairns and its ghosts of all those brave men. Once every 5 years or so King Zwelithini of the Zulus visits.
But now he wants to build a palace for his exclusive use at a cost of between twenty and thirty million on the exact spot that Mkhosan kaMvundlan and his men are buried. A palace and cultural center for himself and his friends right in the middle of the battlefield and on top of known graves.
An environmental research farce has been conducted that has ignored objection from historians from all over the world. The palace, if it were needed could be moved a half mile away and still have its views and ambience. This suggestion has again been ignored. Instead the Royal family is going to destroy the ambience that attracts visitors from all over the world, an ambience and setting that has created a strong and viable tourist attraction. New hotels have been discreetly built away from the battlefield on the escarpment and at the close by Rorkes Drift, scene of another famous battle. Guest houses, have opened to handle the flow from Europe from America from the East, Guides from the area have been trained. Tourism is a major benefit to this impoverished part of Kwa Zulu. All this is being put at risk for the whim of one man who will not see reason.
When first muted this structure was put forward as a hotel for visitors and a museum, its since been revealed that it will be exclusively for the Royal Family. The whole surrounding area is owned by the Royal family suggestions were made for various more sympathic placements and building areas, all with views of this world famous battlefield, these were rejected out of hand as were all logical suggestions and objections.
An insider in confidence even opined ‘what the King wants the King will get.’
The ANC and its Zulu leader can stop this desecration of the graves of some of its finest ancestors, brave men who fought and died to defend the old order, brave men who are revered by the local inhabitants. Brave men who deserve to rest in peace not to be part of the foundations of this abomination, this monument to an ego.
Show leadership and stop this insanity that can destroy one of the only sources of income for this wonderful and historic area.
Do it now before it’s too late.
As Mkosana kaMvundlana said: ‘Uhhlamvana ubul’mlilo ubase uMantshonga no uNgqelebana kashonga njalo!’

Frank Allewell

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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Wed May 10, 2017 12:41 pm

Seems the Butelezi are coming home.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Fri May 12, 2017 8:45 am

There are various moves afoot to try and do something about this abortion. One is a growing publicity campaign to generate interest from the ruling party, the ANC.
Various notables have already agreed to write and express their dismay at the development. If any forum members would like to assist then an e mail to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] would help to push things forward.
We all spend time talking about iSandlwana and the brave men from both armies, time to 'stand up' and be counted guys.

Frank Allewell
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Sun May 14, 2017 1:08 am

An indispensable fight which concerns all the Citizens of the world: "not to loose the memory of the past".
Next time, will be the construction of a nightclub in one of the military cemeteries of the Somme or Verdun, who knows?
I keep in mind the project of a supermarket at Auschwitz....

Just an humble opinion of a banal Citizen "of the world".

Frédéric Bomy
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Tue May 16, 2017 8:56 am

Respect.
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Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Tue May 16, 2017 9:35 am

Excellent!

Kind regards
Brett
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Tue May 16, 2017 1:52 pm

Bonjour,
I keep in mind that the "real fight" against the project is made at the moment in South Africa by courageous South Africans. The main thing is that the King abandons the project - and this not yet the case-

Frédéric

I.E: Brett and Frank, thanks for your kind words.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Tue May 16, 2017 3:56 pm

Bravo Frederic. Very nicely put.
Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Tue May 16, 2017 10:40 pm

Thanks Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Wed May 17, 2017 11:33 am

Very nicely put Frederic, I applaud you for your effort in putting your strongly worded views before the public !!!Salute
Nitro450.
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlawan Cultural Centre    Thu May 18, 2017 12:51 pm

Excellently written Frederic , Tres Bien !
90th
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Thu May 18, 2017 11:58 pm

Gary, Nitro Wink
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana cultural centre   Mon May 22, 2017 4:01 pm

Those of us who originally raised our concerns over the proposal of the building of the iSandlwana Cultural Centre have been made aware that the subsequent appeals have been rejected.

The building of the Cultural Centre will proceed but with provisos.  

A buffer-zone of ten metres will be established around the eleven already discovered graves.  

If anyone who would like to read the full findings, please contact me by e-mail.

John Y.
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