WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command. Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» James Bickley, Isandlwana survivor
Today at 3:26 am by Frank Allewell

» Norman Lister Black. NNC
Yesterday at 7:11 pm by Chas

»  Isandlwana cultural centre
Yesterday at 3:08 pm by xhosa2000

» The death of His Royal Highness Prince Shange (1936-2017)
Yesterday at 3:00 pm by xhosa2000

» Zulu 'flag' at Khambula
Yesterday at 7:56 am by littlehand

» Coghill and Melvill issue
Yesterday at 5:47 am by SRB1965

» Adding to the Library
Wed May 24, 2017 4:52 pm by xhosa2000

» Lt. A. Mynor's Gravesite at Ft Pearson Cemetery
Wed May 24, 2017 2:53 pm by 90th

» Lieut-Gen Sir Edward Hopton , K.C.B., J.P., D.L
Wed May 24, 2017 10:09 am by John Young

» EDWARD HOARE REEVES
Wed May 24, 2017 12:01 am by littlehand

» Capt. A. Gardner 14th Hussars (Staff Officer No.3 Column)
Tue May 23, 2017 1:16 pm by littlehand

» Thinking of my Home Town
Tue May 23, 2017 10:24 am by rusteze

» Lt. A. Mynors 3rd Btn 60th Rifles.
Tue May 23, 2017 9:31 am by ADMIN

» RYLEY John Rutherford
Tue May 23, 2017 5:09 am by 90th

» Frontier Light Horse Kambula Camp Col. Wood’s Column Zulu Land South Africa
Tue May 23, 2017 12:08 am by littlehand

Captain Lord E.F. Gifford, VC
Pursuit of Cetshwayo [Mac & Shad] (Isandula Collection)
The Origin and Rise of the Zulu Nation
Our Favourite Web Links
Legacy of the Rorke’s Drift Heroes Kings Own. The Wardrobe. The National Army Museum. The Anglo Zulu War Museum. The Zulu War 1879. Soldiers Of The Queen. Zulu War Historical Society. John Dunn Foundation The Martini-Henry Rifle. Ian Knight's Website. Zulu War Author & Historian. All About the Martini Henry. Neil Aspinshaws new website. The Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh (Brecon) Swords From The USA.
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
 
littlehand
 
Frank Allewell
 
ADMIN
 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
 
John
 
Mr M. Cooper
 
impi
 
1879graves
 
tasker224
 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share | 
 

 The Fortification of Rorkes Drift

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6288
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:36 am

The Fortification of Rorke’s Drift

At around three in the afternoon various refugees from the battle of iSandlwana started to appear at the mission buildings manned by B Company 2/24th Regiment under the command of lt Gonville Bromhead. At A similar time two other fugitives arrived on the banks of the river opposite the workings of lt John Chard RE.
Lt Chard rode to the camp to find that activities to fortify were already under way. As senior officer present he concurred with the decisions taken and after taking precautions at the punts proceeded to assist in those presentations.
When the NNC abandoned the small command Chard ordered the splitting of the ‘fort’ into two with a cross wall.

So history tells us began the defence of Rorke’s Drift an action that was to go down in the annals of history as a great British Victory, albeit on the heels of a great British defeat.
Historians have since extolled the contributions of Acting Commissary James Langley Dalton generally at the expense of Gonville Bromhead the man labelled as an ‘unconquerable indolent’ and ‘capital at everything except soldiering’.
From these descriptions of him by Francis Clery history has tended to put his contributions to the battle preparations as secondary.
However this from the manuscript of Penn Symons tends to obviate those descriptions:

“Lieutenant Bromhead stated to me that on the 10th January when he and his company to their intense disappointment were ordered to remain behind and occupy and guard Rorke’s Drift Commissariat Store and Base Hospital, he twice asked permission to place the post in a state of defence, but that sanction was refused him by Lord Chelmsford’s Staff. Afterwards when the Column had moved on, he became so persuaded of the sick and danger of inaction that he made up his mind what to do if occasion should arrive. Hence followed on the sudden alarm, the promptness and correctness of his preparations, which had the warm approval of lieutenant Chard, an Officer of the Royal Engineers.”

Penn Symons goes onto describe the preparation and give measurements of the distances involved and then carries on with:

“(Lt Chard)………made the best of his way back to where Lieutenant Bromhead and Acting Commissariat Officer Dalton were doing their utmost to make the post defensible.”

Chard and Bourne’s sketches of ‘the fort’ show two wagons in the rear wall Penn Symons describes it as three with their wheels interlocked and below sacks of grain and boxes packed. I mention this to show that just because it’s written down in history doesn’t necessarily show its correctness. Caution always has to be taken.

It seems History has treated Gonville Bromhead, in spite of a VC, with a touch or hardness.

Frank Allewell
Cape Town
2016/08/11
Back to top Go down
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2090
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:58 pm

It is interesting that "Historical Records of 24th" (jointly edited by Penn Symons) relies on Chard's official despatch to describe events at RD. In the light of what we now read from PS it is possible to see that Chard in fact gives a "nod" to Bromhead's active roll in organising the defence.

Having ridden up to the camp from the ponts, Chard says  "Lt. Bromhead was most actively engaged in barricading the store buildings and hospital, and connecting the defence of the two buildings by walls of mealie-bags and two waggons that were on the ground." He goes on to say that Dalton was "superintending" the works of defence". Penn Symons manuscript lets us better understand that while Dalton was "superintending",  Bromhead was directing the defence to a much greater degree than history has recognised.

Useful insight.

Steve
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6288
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:05 pm

That's my reading as well Steve. Interesting that Bromhead had already worked things out in advance, crucial considering the timing but just surprising he wasn't given more credit instead of being written of as a bit of a dozy character.
Back to top Go down
nthornton1979

avatar

Posts : 137
Join date : 2011-01-18
Age : 37
Location : Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:25 pm


Hi Frank,

I fully agree that Bromhead has had a bit of a raw deal. It is often assumed that, before Dalton stepped up and asserted they should stay put, Bromhead had made up his mind to abandon RD in favour of moving back to Helpmekaar. Excuse the plug but I cover this in my book and point out that there is not one single [known] source showing that Bromhead ever gave such an order. What we do have is a number of confused and contradictory sources which state things like 'the general feeling' was to retire. This is a far cry from Gonny giving any order, or deciding to do so.

Another angle to consider is the fact that it is highly unlikely that Bromhead would have made any definitive decision without first consulting with Chard.

On top of this I have found a further source from an eye witness [apologies for being vague here] which describes the moment that Bromhead heard the news of the disaster. This too makes no suggestion that he flapped or wanted to retire. In fact, it goes on to say that, when Bromhead found out, he shouted for the men to 'Stand to Arms' before spreading them out in skirminsh order by the hospital. Shortly after this, Dalton walked across and put his idea forward that they fortify the position.

I'm totally with you that he's been hard done to. That's why I devote an Appendix to this very issue. Hopefully this will become more widely accepted.

On another note - whilst mulling over PS's comments about Bromhead requesting permission to fortify the post - I assume that the 'reinforcements' were G Company, who were due to guard the ponts. I wondered if Bromhead, when requesting to 'fortify the post' actually meant to fortify the high ground by the ponts, the mission station, or both? Whatever the case, it is clear that the security of the 'post' was an immediate concern as soon as he was informed that he'd be staying behind. Obviously he wasn't as stupid as some would have us believe.

Neil

Neil
Back to top Go down
nthornton1979

avatar

Posts : 137
Join date : 2011-01-18
Age : 37
Location : Runcorn, Cheshire, UK

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:28 pm


Frank,

email inbound ...

Neil
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6288
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:21 pm

Thanks Neil
Got the e mail and responded. I would find it hard to disagree with your comments, looking forward to the book arriving.

Regards
Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1879
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:37 am

Bonjour,
Two remarks:

Clery:
Clery has been also very critical about Glyn although he seemed to defend him during the blame game. The question of his hidden motivations is open. I think he defended in reality his own reputation.

About the fortification of RD;
There is this intriguing comment by Harford in"Zulu war journal" (p.16): " On the 11th january the 3rd column crossed the buffalo into Zululand... a little abovethe main drift, known as RD after the Dutchman Jim Rorke, whose house and farm buildings were occupied by us as Fort, after being entrenched."
Cheers
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Kenny



Posts : 276
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:29 am

When I first saw copies of the sketches/watercolours undertaken by WW Lloyd of the camp at Helpmekaar, these did suggest that attempts had been to fortify this camp prior to 22 January. My conclusion was that similar defensive preparations must have been made at RD prior to 22 January. These were then reinforced and improved on 22 January once the possible Zulu attack was more certain.
Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1879
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:35 am

Always about Clery, there is a parallel between his harsh comments towards Bromhead and Gardner. Ultimately, Gardner did not get the VC and Clery is partly responsible. In these conditions, its comments about the personality of Bromhead (and Chard) must be assessed with a pinch of salt. It's just an opinion.
Regards
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1879
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:42 am

Read in the same direction, the comments from Wolseley about Chard and Bromhead (and Jones, R.E. / about Chard): jealousy.
The Queen Victoria, who has twice received Chard (from memory) enjoyed obviously the personality of Chard
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6288
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:02 am

With a touch of insider knowledge, Im sure that Neil explores those issues Frederic in his new book.

Regards
Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1879
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:12 am

My friend,
Do you touch a premium for each book sold by Neil? (it's a joke of course).
Regards.
I.E: Gary wrote on this forum a similar comment about Neil's book
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6288
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:31 am

Morning Frederic
But of course, he pays me a fortune. Very Happy

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6288
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:32 am

Actually Frederic we were discussing this exact thing last night, that's how I know.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1879
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:36 am

Frank,
you are alredy a "rewarding" man for all the members of this forum (I'm not sure that this makes sense in English).
I.E: After reflection, I think I understood the meaning of your previous message. Sorry for Neil.
Regards
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1879
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:49 am

I hope that this night discussion between you and Neil has inflected your opinion about Clery ( I.E: the dogma of his moral honesty and integity)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6288
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:07 am

Ha ha, you already know my opinion of Clery. Fine upstanding professor. Suspect

Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1879
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:29 am

Oh, oh!
In the past the subject (about Clery) was approached through several threats.
when I attend a course of my Professor, I always listen carrefully what he told.
It seems you lose memory!!
Regards.
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6288
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:36 am

A ah so history reverts to attack me.
For the record, I believe that Clery was indeed a fine professor of tactics, a gossip and scandal monger of the first order, but at heart a gentleman of his generation with the loyalties that went with it.
So mon ami, no change of heart Im afraid.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

avatar

Posts : 1879
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : france

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:46 am

Opinion consistent with your previous writings on the subject ...

Regards
frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
xhosa2000

avatar

Posts : 735
Join date : 2015-11-24

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:39 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
littlehand

avatar

Posts : 7089
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 48
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:42 pm

Who's the artist?
Back to top Go down
John Young

avatar

Posts : 1195
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 61
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:22 pm

Littlehand,

That is from a Look and Learn magazine.

Try a search on their staff artists.

I'll have a dig through over the weekend and see if I can find the copy I have.

John Y.


Last edited by John Young on Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:46 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

avatar

Posts : 735
Join date : 2015-11-24

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:58 pm

As usual JY is correct!. the image below is from the 1973 Look and
Learn Annual..printed in 1972. and below it the image purport's to
depict the Battle of Kambula, i include that because it is a strong
image of a little mentioned crucial event in the AZW.

Littlehand, i have no idea who the artist is.. the book gives no
accreditation to any of the artists. just a thank you in passing to the
people who produced the weekly periodical.no names..trust you JY,
how many other people would have known where that image was
from.. i, was not surprised you did.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9142
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: The Fotification Of Rorke's Drift    Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:01 am

Hi Xhosa
I know the caption states Kambula , but to me its more suited to Hlobane ! , as you are aware its very flat around kambula , no boulders to speak of like in this drawing . This could quite easily have been captioned '' The Retreat From Hlobane '' ! Shocked
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6288
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:03 am

The caption could be describing Ulundi, so a pictorial for all seasons. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

avatar

Posts : 735
Join date : 2015-11-24

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:37 am

Morning Frank, 90th.. i agree with you both, i thought the Kambula image
was Hlobane when i first saw it, or even an incident from a later skirmish
like against the Matabele.. yeah Frank, the caption sounded like the
Battle of Ulundi to me!. stirring images all the same i think.
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9142
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: The Fotification Of Rorke's Drift    Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:26 pm

I know what you are saying Frank but the ground doesn't look like that of Ulundi to me . Possibly the skirmish area of the 3rd July at the White Mfolozi could pass for that terrain .
90th Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6288
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:14 pm

Just the caption Gary
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:40 am

Well, if you think that history has given poor old Bromhead a raw deal (which it has), then just think what a lousy deal 'the film' gave to the mainly Englishmen of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment by turning them and their regiment into taffies. And to add insult to injury and rub salt into the open wounds, others, including authors, broadcasters and so called 'historians' who should know better, have gone along with this 'welsh' nonsense by churning out stuff about it being a 'welsh' outfit and further adding to this myth, and therefore conning the gullible public into believing that it was. Baker and the dirty tricks brigade have really dealt a very raw deal to the memory of the brave Englishmen and the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment that defended RD.

In 'the film', Bromhead is portrayed as an upper class twit, while of course Baker portrayed himself as the brains with the guts, the hero behind the defence of RD, Dalton is portrayed as a la di da twonk, and Hook is portrayed as a drunken, ne'er do well wastrel, no wonder his family walked out in disgust. As much as 'the film' has become a 'classic', it is so far from the truth that it is mostly fiction, and it should be remade to give the public a better understanding, and give back the honour and glory of the defence of RD to the mostly Englishmen and their regiment, the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment.
Back to top Go down
Lee Stevenson



Posts : 44
Join date : 2013-10-29

PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:32 pm

"There is a parson here who was at Rorke's Drift battle and he behaved very well from all accounts. Chard is the fellow to whom most praise is due - as Bromhead's idea was to go into the open to fight and of course they would all have been chewed up in 5 minutes..."

Extract from the letters of Major P.R. Anstruther, 94th Regiment, 1879-1880 - National Army Museum
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: The Fortification of Rorkes Drift   

Back to top Go down
 
The Fortification of Rorkes Drift
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: