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 Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?

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Bromhead1879



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PostSubject: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:30 am

Hello men, I am a new member as of yesterday. This is my second post. I have seen both grass green and bottle green (like early second world war Heer tunic) on 24th of foot tunics. Which is correct? I searched the forums but to no avail. Thank you in advance.
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:50 am

Hi Bromhead1879.. are you familiar with the term ' Willow Green ? '. hope you
enjoy your stay. cheers xhosa
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Bromhead1879



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:43 am

I did a search for Willow green here on the forums. Nothing about tunics.
would this be the lighter shade or darker?
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:36 pm

Well..lighter or darker, the tunic facings as illustrated in the example
below are i believe to be accurate, then you must add in the factor of
wear..on foreign service in Africa the climate played havoc on the
uniforms..you can imagine the state of them after a couple of years
marching over Africa, sweating and dealing with almost daily thunder-
storms. they would have faded quite dramatically..

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Bromhead1879



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:28 pm

Thank you xhosa2000!! I figured there might be some varients but i reenacted WWII German and we had pages of threads dedicated to tunic colors etc. Thanks for the welcome!
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timothylrose



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:13 pm

We use Hainsworth cloth - which is as close as you can get to the original Victorian fabric - a lot of our kit has been worn out in all manners of weather over the last nearly 20 years including being trashed at Isandlwana (in some cases for a number of weeks) the red does dull down and go as described more of a brick red but the green facings don't seem to deteriorate in the same way - if you are seriously interested in sorting out cloth then drop me a pm - atb Tim
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:36 pm

I brought this question up about facing colours on the forum a number of years ago, I did get a few suggestions about the colour, amongst them 'grass green' was mentioned a few times. Later studies have shown that the facing colour of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment was indeed 'grass green', however, looking at some photo's and paintings and also some representations on film, it would appear that the shade of this 'grass green' varies with either the manufacturers of the cloth (dying the cloth), or the shade of green paint used to paint the picture, or the colour tinting of an actual black and white picture, as most of them look to be different shades (lighter or darker), however, out of most of the studies I have made on the colour, 'grass green' is by far the most popular colour mentioned for the facings of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:53 pm

'Grass Green' according to the Regulations (see Taylor, A., British Military Uniforms, p. 62)
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:02 pm

Ah look you, it's the "green green grass of home" isn't it? - cue Mr T Jones and the RD Choir!

Steve
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:20 pm

Your a bad man Steve.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:40 pm

Ah, but that grass green goes back a long way, back to the 2nd Warwickshires...and the green, green grass of England...not a Taff in sight...

Ye Warwickshire lads, and ye lasses,
See what at our Jubilee passes,
Come revel away, rejoice and be glad,
For the lad of all lads, was a Warwickshire lad,
Warwickshire lad,
All be glad,
For the lad of all lads, was a Warwickshire lad.

Be proud of the charms of your county,
Where Nature has lavish'd her bounty,
Where much she has giv'n, and some to be spar'd,
For the bard of all bards, was a Warwickshire bard,
Warwickshire bard,
Never pair'd,
For the bard of all bards, was a Warwickshire bard.

Each shire has its different pleasures,
Each shire has its different treasures:
But to rare Warwickshire all must submit;
For the Wit of all wits, was a Warwickshire Wit;
Warwickshire Wit:
How he writ!
For the Wit of all wits, was a Warwickshire Wit!

Old Ben, Thomas Otway, John Dryden,
And half a score more we take pride in;
Of famous Will Congreve we boast too the skill,
But the Will of all Wills was a Warwickshire Will, and the Will was a Warwickshire Will,
Warwickshire Will!
Matchless still!
For the Will of all Wills was a Warwickshire Will.

Our Shakespear compared is to no man,
Nor Frenchman, nor Grecian, nor Roman;
Their swans are all geese to the Avon's sweet swan,
And the man of all men was a Warwickshire man, and the man was a Warwickshire man,
Warwickshire man,
Avon's swan,
For the man of all men was a Warwickshire man.

As ven’son is very inviting,
To steal it our Bard took delight in;
To make his friends merry he never was lag;
And the Wag of all wags, was a Warwickshire Wag;
Warwickshire Wag;
Ever brag!
For the Wag of all wags, was a Warwickshire Wag!

There never was sure such a creature
Of all she was worth he robbed Nature;
He took all her smiles, and he took all her grief,
And the thief of all thieves was a Warwickshire thief, and the thief was a Warwickshire thief,
Warwickshire thief,
He's the chief,
For the thief of all thieves was a Warwickshire thief.

'Song, in Connection with the Shakespeare Jubilee at Stratford-upon-Avon'
By David Garrick (1717–1779)

Written 7th September 1769

(earning several brownie points from Martin en route).


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:53 pm

Poetry, call that poetry? This is poetry.

Twas at the camp of Rorke’s Drift, and at tea-time,
And busily engaged in culinary operations was a private of the line;
But suddenly he paused, for he heard a clattering din,
When instantly two men on horseback drew rein beside him.

“News from the front!” said one, “Awful news!” said the other,
“Of which, we are afraid, will put us to great bother,
For the black Zulus are coming, and for our blood doth thirst,”
“And the force is cut up to pieces!” shouted the first.

“We’re dead beat,” said both, “but we’ve got to go on,”
And on they rode both, looking very woebegone;
Then Henry Hook put all thought of cooking out of his mind,
For he was surrounded with danger on every side he did find.

He was a private of the South Wales Borderers, Henry Hook,
Also a brave soldier, and an hospital cook;
A soldier of the Queen, who was always ready to obey,
And willing to serve God by night and day.

Then away to the Camp he ran, with his mind all in a shiver,
Shouting, “The force is cut up, sir, on the other side of the river!”
Which caused the officer in command with fear to quiver,
When Henry Hook the news to him did deliver.

Then Henry Hook saluted, and immediately retired,
And with courage undaunted his soul was fired,
And the cry rang out wildly, “The Zulus are coming!”
Then the alarm drums were instantly set a-drumming.

Then “Fall in! Fall in!” the commanders did cry,
And the men mustered out, ready to do and to die,
As British soldiers are always ready to do,
But, alas, on this occasion their numbers were but few.

They were only eighty in number, that brave British band,
And brave Lieutenant Broomhead did them command;
He gave orders to erect barricades without delay,
“It’s the only plan I can see, men, to drive four thousand savages away.”

Then the mealie bags and biscuit boxes were brought out,
And the breastwork was made quickly without fear or doubt,
And barely was it finished when some one cried in dismay,
“There’s the Zulus coming just about twelve hundred yards away.”

Methinks I see the noble hero, Henry Hook,
Because like a destroying angel he did look,
As he stood at the hospital entrance defending the patients there,
Bayoneting the Zulus, while their cries rent the air,
As they strove hard the hospital to enter in,
But he murdered them in scores, and thought it no sin.

In one of the hospital rooms was stationed Henry Hook,
And every inch a hero he did look,
Standing at his loophole he watched the Zulus come,
All shouting, and yelling, and at a quick run.

On they came, a countless host of savages with a rush,
But the gallant little band soon did their courage crush,
But the cool man Henry Hook at his post began to fire,
And in a short time those maddened brutes were forced to retire.

Still on came the savages into the barricade,
And still they were driven back, but undismayed.
Again they came into the barricade, yet they were driven back,
While darkness fell swift across the sun, dismal and black.

Then into the hospital the savages forced their way,
And in a moment they set fire to it without dismay,
Then Henry Hook flew to assist the patients in the ward,
And the fighting there was fearful and hard.

With yell and shriek the Zulus rushed to the attack,
But for the sixth time they were driven back
By the brave British band, and Henry Hook,
Who was a brave soldier, surgeon, and hospital cook.

And when Lord Chelmsford heard of the victory that day,
He sent for Henry Hook without delay,
And they took the private before the commander,
And with his braces down, and without his coat, in battle array grandeur.

Then Lord Chelmsford said, “Henry Hook, give me your hand,
For your conduct to day has been heroic and grand,
And without your assistance to-day we’d been at a loss,
And for your heroic behaviour you shall receive the Victoria Cross.”

William Shakespeare

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:51 am

Rusteze
Blimey!
Taken from the Ladybird popular history of the AZW no doubt!
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:57 am

Impi! wo 'nans' impi iyeza
Obani bengathinta amabhubesi?
All along the river chelmsford's army lay asleep
Come to crush the children of mageba
Come to exact the realm's price for peace
And in the morning as they saddled up to ride
Their eyes shone with the fire and the steel
The general told them of the task that lay ahead
To bring the people of the sky to heel
Chorus
Mud and sweat on polished leather
Warm rain seeping to the bone
They rode through the season's wet weather
Straining for a glimpse of the foe
Hopeless battalion destined to die
Broken by the benders of kings
Vainglorious general and victorian pride
Would cost him and eight hundred men their lives
Chorus
They came to the side of the mountain
Scouts rode out to spy the land
Even as the realm's soldiers lay resting
Mageba's forces were at hand
And by the evening the vultures were wheeling
Above the ruins where the fallen lay
An ancient song as old as the ashes
Echoed as mageba's warriors marched away
Chorus

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:42 am

Frank
and the chorus was 'you put your right foot in, your right foot out...'?
Actually we should be careful or Admin will be asked to delete these timeless and relevant arias as digressing.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:05 am

I actually posted that song to show that the Zulus are still very aware of the war, even though the song goes back a number of years. plus of course its the theme song that the Springboks use before a game, so the events of 1879 still inspire.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:12 pm

Ladybird book it wasn't. Written in 1899, the William is correct but the Shakespeare less so. Busy in 1879 with trains falling off bridges.

Steve
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:08 pm

Julian, yes my friend, you have certainly won the contest and also earned the brownie points 100%. Salute

Steve fails miserably I'm sorry to say, just take a look at the BIG BIG mistake with the opening line in the 4th verse Suspect

ie; "He was a private of the swb, Henry Hook" No No No

Oh no he wasn't, he was a private of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, the bloody swb did NOT exist during the AZW, it was not until 2 years AFTER the AZW that the bloody swb came into existence and then robbed the honour and glory and stole the credit from the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment. Mad

Julian = Top Marks with 10x10 Very Happy

Steve = Fails Miserably with - 10 Sad

No contest really chaps, anyone promoting the swb over the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment is sure to fail, because history tells the truth. agree

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:28 pm

Martin
Thank you. I'll remember you in my will.
Frank
I hadn't realized that about the song - how strange to think Isandhlwana should crop up in that way!
rusteze
"You can't win 'em all." (Lord Chelmsford, 22nd January 1879, spoken in earnest).
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:55 pm

Only an AZW enthusiast, faced with what is arguably the most appalling verse ever written, picks up on getting the regiment wrong! I'll get my anorak.

Steve
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:57 pm

LOL Thanks Julian (a million will do nicely mate) Shocked agree

Getting back to the song 'Green Green Grass Of Home', it was written by Claude 'Curly' Putman Jr, first recorded by Johnny Darrell, originally made popular by Porter Wagoner, and also sung by Bobby Bare and recorded by the great Jerry Lee Lewis and later by Tom Jones. Salute

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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:59 pm

Steve, how could Shakespeare have written that, he died in 1616 scratch
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:02 pm

Martin,

At least Steve got the first name correct.

John Y.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:14 pm

Hi John Y.

At first I thought that Steve might have been refering to Charles Dickens when he mentioned "trains falling off bridges in 1879", however, the accident Dickens was involved in happened on the 9th June 1865, and was at Staplehurst on a viaduct on the South Eastern Railway, Dickens was affected greatly by the accident, and oddly enough died 5 years to the day after the accident, strange eh!

So who is Steve refering to scratch
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:31 pm

His middle names a gem and his birthplace takes the cake.

Steve
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:37 pm

Martin
Tay Bridge Disaster 1879.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:04 pm

William Topaz McGonagall scratch
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:10 pm

William Topaz McGonagall, poet and tragedian of Dundee, has been widely hailed as the writer of the worst poetry in the English language. A self-educated hand loom weaver of Irish descent, he discovered his discordant muse in 1877 and embarked upon a 25 year career as a working poet, delighting and appalling audiences across Scotland and beyond.

His audiences threw rotten fish at him, the authorities banned his performances, and he died a pauper over a century ago. But his books remain in print to this day, and he’s remembered and quoted long after more talented contemporaries have been forgotten.

Steve
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:26 pm

Wasn't he the bloke who was a paddy but pretended to be a jock? He also gave many false dates of his birth and also gave different places for where he was born, however, I don't suppose that it was as bad as some of todays twerps who are a male one day then the next day they say they are a female, like that guy in the jock guards, or that idiot Izzard in the pink hat, what a pair of dip sticks, the mind boggles. No Suspect
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:57 pm

Mr Cooper

I think you will have to change the words of your constant rant slightly. The South Wales Borderers did exist in 1879 at the time of AZW. It was name of the Royal Brecknock and Radnor Militia from 1876 which later became 3rd Battalion The South Wales Borderers.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:19 pm

Hi Kenny.

Yes, I knew about the name of the militia, I have read it many times, however, they had no connection whatsoever to the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, and they were not (at that time), a part of the regiment or the regular (standing) army, and of course the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment had no connection whatsoever to Wales, they were only put there on paper due to the government reforms. The swb you speak of (the militia), were not involved in the AZW so therefor did not fight at either iSandlwana or Rorke's Drift, so my 'rant' is not actually a 'rant', it is historical fact.

P.S. The militia you speak of was actually called the Royal South Wales Borderers Militia, so the SWB were not actually in existence in 1879, but the RSWBM was.
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Bromhead1879



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:50 pm

Well gentleman, quite an education I am receiving all owed to the curiosity of a shade of green. Thank you all. I have decided to go with just the grass green and not the willow green or the dark green even though the sage green is lovely this time of year. Perhaps I will purchase a tunic with interchangeable sleeves with the various shades of green so as not to be sporting a farby impression. Thank you all very kindly indeed. Sincerely, Utterly Confused!!
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:25 pm

Hi Bromhead1879.

If you go to Ireland you will be coming back with a lot of interchangeable sleeves, they have 40 shades of green over there Shocked

You can't go wrong if you go with Grass Green, as that was the correct shade of green according to Regulations. agree
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Bromhead1879



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PostSubject: Re: Grass green or bottle green on the 24ths tunics?   Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:49 am

Thank you Mr. Cooper!
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