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 Who is Butler in the Zulu War?

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1879graves

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PostSubject: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:27 pm

I came across this article thanks to sas1's link.

Can anyone put a name to this Butler? What was his name in the Zulu War? What ship did he come from? Can anyone find him on the medal rolls?

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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:40 pm

Names I have found so far

NAME Newman J
RANK Private
REGIMENT RN/Euphrates

NAME Newman J C
RANK Domestic Class Three
REGIMENT RN/Shah

NAME Newman J R
RANK Petty Officer Class One
REGIMENT RN/Orontes

NAME Butler J
RANK Leading Seaman
REGIMENT RN/Forester

NAME Butler J
RANK Ordinary Seaman
REGIMENT RN/Tenedos

Now I cannot remember which Naval units went to relieve Pearson's Column at Eshowe?
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PostSubject: naval units.   Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:11 pm

hi 1879graves.
From what i can remember without pulling the books out, HMS SHAH and BOADICEA, the SHAH supplying most of the
men ( hope PARKHOUSE was with them :lol!: )
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: butler ? newman ?   Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:16 pm

hi all.
A good post about Butler , newman or whatever his name was , i had never seen that story before,
i think his life would make a damn good movie !!. If he made it up , he should have been an author !.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Further Research into Butler   Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:22 pm

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PostSubject: Further Reseach Part Two?   Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:30 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:42 pm

The Execution of Butler: 1879Graves No point in looking for his real name it was never given out.

EXECUTION OF BUTLER.
FORTITUDE ON THE
SCAFFOLD.
A QUIET AND PAINLESS DEATH.
SYDNEY, July 16.
Frank Butler, the murderer of Lee Weller, at Glenbrook, was hanged in Dar- linghurst gaol, at 9 o'clock this morning, in the presence of the Sheriff, gaol officials, representatives of the press, and a fewother citizens.Never was the hanging of a criminal, whose black deeds had created such excitement, more devoid of sensational surroundings. The execution might have been that of any commonplace murderer. Butler, who made such an exhibition of himself during the last day of the trial, nerved himself wonderfully at the end, and gave himself up wholly to the ministra- tions of the clergy. The Rev. G. Lane was in attendance at half-past seven o'clock, and remained exhorting and praying with Butler till he was handed over by the Governor of the Gaol to the Sheriff, and not until the last moment were the ministrations ceased.When the officials entered Butler's cell, he expressed himself as being quite ready, and hoped that the " business " would be done as expeditiously as possible. He was terribly pale as the procession left the con- demned cell, but that was all. Supported by two warders he walked erect, and took his place on the drop with a step which did not betray the slightest sign of weak- ness. He was leg-ironed, and on the gallows a pair of straps were substituted. When the irons were being taken off Butler allowed his gaze to wander at will over the knot of spectators in front of the gallows. The condemned man seemed the least concerned of all. He gave no trouble whatever to the executioner, and held his arms in the proper position for the hang- man to bind them. He stood up imme- diately the executioner entered his cell, and remarked as Howard began the pre- paratory work, " Don't keep me long."
Just before the cap was adjusted Butler was asked if he had anything to say, and replied that he had nothing to add to what he had already stated to the authorities. He then exclaimed, "Let her go." The drop immediately fell. Death must have been instantaneous as not a muscle moved, and as the body swung suspended all thatwas observed was a little streak of blood. The drop was 7ft. five inches.
As those who witnessed the execution left the gaol gate they were eagerly ques- tioned by a small knot of people who had
collected outside as to the manner in which the murderer met his death, and surprise was felt at the coolness he had displayed, the opinion being generally held that he would collapse during the final moments onthe scaffold. At the inquest on the body a verdict of death by strangulation was returned.Immediately after the execution Mr. Herbert, the Governor of the Gaol, pro- ceeded to the Crown Law Offices, and in the absence of the Minister of Justice, saw the Attorney General, to whom he made the following statement regarding the criminal. "Yesterday Butler called me into his cell and said that he was guilty of the murders of Lee Weller, Preston, and Burgess, and that the sentence passed upon him was a just one. He was quite satisfied with the treatment he had received in gaol, and said that everybody had been very kind. He said the same to the Rev. Mr. Lane, with the addition that he had been a very bad man, and for his previous crimes, if it were possible, he deserved to be hanged over and over again. Butler admitted having com- mitted a great many other crimes. He begged me to write to Preston's relatives expressing to them his deep sorrow at having murdered that boy. Butler is also supposed to have murdered a man named Davis, and I asked if that was so. He was somewhat reticent over this murder.
He said others were implicated, and he did not want to say anything to get them into trouble." The consequence of the last
statement is that the authorities have come to the conclusion from the murderer's demeanour that Butler was either guilty of the murder of Davis, or was implicatedin it.Butler made a will yesterday and handed it over to the Governor of the Gaol. Sundry small articles he left to the Governor and the Deputy-Governor of the Gaol, the Rev. Geo. Lane and the clerk at Darlinghurst. The residue of his property now in the possession of the police is left to his sister in England. Who the sister of the mur- derer is, the authorities decline to say.
The Attorney General states that Butler made no mention of Price-who is sup- posed to be another of his victims-to the Governor of the
Gaol or anyone else. There have recently been enquiries regarding aman named Davis, and the Attorney General states that it is most probable from Butler's demeanour and partial ad- missions that he knew something of this man and could have accounted for him had he chosen to do so.The Attorney-General has supplied a summary of the result of the investiga- tions made by the San Francisco and New South Wales police into Butler's past career. The first authentic trace of Butlerwas supplied by James Murphy, of San Francisco, who identified him as Richard Ashe, of H.M.S. Liffy. He had deserted either from the warships Pelican or Triumph, and joined the Liffy in 1882. Murphy stated that Butler came from the West of Dorset. John Conway, of San Francisco, alleged that Butler was trans- ferred from H.M.S. Duke of Wellington to H.M.S. Sultan in the beginning of 1882, going to Gibraltar and then to Malta, and that he was at the
bombardment of Alexandria. Four months later he returned to England. Conway next saw Butler in Coquimbo in 1886, and next in the city prison in San Francisco. Butler afterwards proceeded to Canada, where he entered the mounted police. He next enlisted in the United States army as James MacKnight, and deserted in Sep- tember, 1886. Next he enlisted as George Anderson in February, 1887, and deserted in May, proceeding to San Francisco, where he shipped for England in a vessel called the Baclutha. He went to Holyhead, and his next move was shipping as Richard Asche on the ship Eulidia, bound for Sydney, which city he left in the Star of Russia as Ashe, and arrived in San Fran- cisco in August, 1891. Next Butler was employed as a fireman at Le Grande Laundry till February, 1887. In the fol- lowing month he returned to England in the ship Scottish Glen, and made his way thence on the Olive Bank to Newcastle, New South Wales. In the last-named port he served a month in gaol for threatening the life of his captain, who subsequently met him last year in Newcastle. Fred Horton, of Tamworth, stated that four years ago he was mining at John Bull with a man named Butler, who wanted a mate to go prospecting. They proceeded to Glen Ines, 80, miles from Grafton, and pros- pected together for four months. From Newcastle Butler proceeded to Western Aus- tralia. At Northam he was arrested for robbing a tent, and he seems to have served five sentences at Fremantle between August, 1892, and November, 1894. After being released he told the West Australian police that he had tried to join the barque Thyatira at Fremantle, but failed, the reason being that the certificate which he had was a stolen one. Frank Harwood, of Western Australia, stated that about July, 1896, certificates and papers bearing his name were stolen from him. Harwood appears to have relatives in New South Wales named Butler. In May, 1896, Butler was a blacksmith at Coolgardie under the name of Frank Harwood. He then went mining in October of the same year he was in Sydney, and told Albert Ametty, who had known him in Western Australia,that he had been prospecting in the Albury district with another man, and that he had sold out for £2,000. Butler appears to have left Fremantle in July, 1896, under the name of Richard Ashe. Mr. Want, the Attorney-General points out, with regard to the extradition and apprehension of Butler, that he had over- ridden Mr. Chamberlain's (the Secretary ofState for the Colonies) circular letter setting forth that all extradition proceedings should be carried on through the Imperial authorities. There being no time to los
he communicated direct with the San Francisco authorities, giving instructions for the arrest, and sent police to the United States, at the same time, however, despatching an officer to England to take the necessary steps. As it happened, the latter officer arrived in San
Francisco with the papers required just before the arrivalof the Swan Hilda. Mr. Want stated thathe had asked the Premier to point out to

Mr. Chamberlain the inconvenience of the instructions regarding extradition.
ANOTHER MYSTERY.
THE MURDERER'S REAL NAME.
The authorities now know Butler's real name was not Butler, or Ashe, or Newman, or any name yet published. They are in possession of his real name, and know that his relatives are fairly well to do people in England. They are further of opinion that it would only give them, pain and serve no good purpose to publish.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:57 pm

This has become really interesting. Came across this.

On 19 September 1884 the Star left England under the command of Captain Simpson carrying a 4,000 ton load, mostly cement, for Australia. She rounded the Cape of Good Hope on 6 November 1884. Before she arrived at the Cape, the Star was caught in a storm when her upper topsail yard was carried away and after this she was unable to set full sail. Despite this, between the Cape of Good Hope and Leeuwin in Western Australia the Star of Russia made runs of 310, 308, 327, 314, 299 and 300 miles in consecutive days. She arrived in Melbourne on 4 December 1884, 75 days from London.

The Star of Russia seems to have worked on the London to Melbourne route for most of her life.

The Star of Russia had a number of sisterships. One was called the Star of Greece. This was wrecked off Port Willunga, South Australia in 1888 with the loss of 17 lives

On Sunday 11 March 1894 she arrived in Melbourne from Santa Rosalia which is in Mexico, below California. On Saturday 5 May 1894 she left Melbourne for London.

In 1882 a man of unknown real name (possibly from the West of Dorset) was transferred from HMS Duke of Wellington to HMS Sultan in the beginning of 1882, going to Gibraltar and then to Malta. He was at the bombardment of Alexandria. Four months later he returned to England. After this (also in 1882) he deserted from either HMS Pelican or HMS Triumph and joined HMS Liffy.

He was next seen in Columbo (now Sri Lanka) in 1886 and then in the city prison in San Francisco. After this he proceeded to Canada where he entered the mounted police. He next enlisted in the United States army as James MacKnight and deserted in September 1886. Next he enlisted as George Anderson in February 1887 and deserted in May, proceeding to San Francisco where he shipped for England in a vessel called the Baclutha. He went to Holyhead and his next move was shipping as Richard Asche on the ship Eulidia, bound for Sydney.

He left Sydney on the Star of Russia as Ashe and arrived in San Francisco in August 1891. Next he was employed as a fireman at Le Grande Laundry till February 1892. In the following month he returned to England in the ship Scottish Glen and made his way on the Olive Bank to Newcastle New South Wales. (Note that there is some confusion about this and the following and not all reports add up to be correct).

In about late 1892 or early 1893 a man now known as Frank Butler took a position as a seaman on the Star of Russia in San Francisco. His real name may have been Elgan, but as you will see, even this may not be correct. The ship sailed for Australia and Butler appears to have jumped ship once in Australia, possibly Sydney.

In 1893, Butler, using the name Richard Ashe, served as a seaman on the barque Olive Bank on a voyage from Newcastle to Glasgow and return. However, he may have actually boarded in Rio de Janerio. Ashe was imprisoned for a month in Maitland Gaol on the ship's return to Newcastle for threatening Captain Perie of the Olive Bank. Upon release, he left Newcastle.

Fred Horton, of Tamworth, stated that in 1893 he was mining at John Bull with a man named Butler, who wanted a mate to go prospecting. They proceeded to Glen Innes, 80 miles from Grafton, and prospected together for four months. From Newcastle Butler proceeded to Western Australia.

It seems that he stayed in Australia for the next four years or so, moving around mining areas. On 28 August 1893 Ashe was convicted of unlawful possession in Newcastle, Western Australia, and sentenced to six months in jail. Newcastle was 85 kilometres north-east of Perth and was renamed Toodyay in May 1910 to end confusion with Newcastle in New South Wales. On 8 Febryary 1894 he faced a similar charge again in Newcastle WA. He was again sentenced to six months, this time with hard labour.

On his release from Fremantle Gaol, he travelled to Northam where he was suspected of stealing from miners. His tent was searched and the items found. On 1 September 1894 he was again sentenced to 18 months hard labour. On his release in January 1896 he travelled to Coolgardie and was there in August 1896. It appears that he then travelled to Sydney.

On about 12 or 13 August 1896, a Norwegian called Burgess purchased a wagon and horses from Mr McCarthy (also called McCarty and McWharty in newspaper reports), a stable keeper, in Castlereagh Street in Sydney. Together with Butler, they travelled to the Parkes area to go prospecting. After been seen in the area, Burgess was never seen again.

On 16 September 1896 a man called Lesagh called (Lisah or Lesah in newspaper reports) left Sydney for Germantown (I think this is part of Hill End) in the company of Butler. They left in a wagon purchased by Lesagh, also from McCarthy, for this trip. He had answered an advertisement for a prospecting mate. It seems they may have headed to Parkes where they were seen. A day or two later, Butler sold the wagon and horse Lesagh was never heard of again.

On about 17 October 1896, Arthur T. O. Preston, 20 years old and a student at Sydney University, answered an advertisement in a newspaper and met a man called Frank Harwood (he was using the ID of a man actually called Frank Horwood) at the Railway dining rooms in George Street, Sydney. They then caught a train to Emu Plains (at the foot of the Blue Mountains). On the train, they spoke to a Mr Thompson who reported that they planned to go to Glenbrook. A few days later, Thompson saw Harwood in Sydney and asked where Preston was. Harwood advised that Preston was "no use in the bush" and he was taking another man with him instead.

On 29 October 1896, a retired sea captain, Lee E. Weller, who lived in Phillip Street, Sydney, in answer to an advertisement, went prospecting with Frank Butler. They caught the train from Redfern (in Sydney) to Glenbrook in the Lower Blue Mountains, the plan was to look at the creeks in this area. They pitched camp at Glenbrook. Weller was last seen on 31 OCtober 1897. Weller's friends appear to have reported him missing to the Police. Detectives went to the camp and found ashes, including the remains of a notebook that Weller used. Also found were a pair of trousers with the initials FH. Butler was known to have used the name Frank Harwood.

On a flannel shirt bearing the initials of Preston was found at Linden about 50 yards from where he was seen camping with Butler. On 2 December 1896, a body was found bured in a grave about two feet deep. It was about a mile and a half from Linden. He had been shot in the head. Preston was buried at Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney on 5 December 1896.

Shortly after 9 am on Sunday 6 December 1896, the body of Lee Weller was found in a shallow grave under an overhanging rock about a mile to the west of Glenbrook. This was very similar to how Preston was buried. The body was found by J. J. Meed of Glenbrook who was out looking for the body. Weller had been shot in the head. He was buried at Waverly Cemetery in Sydney on 8 December 1896.

On 15 November 1896 a man named Lee Weller took a room in the Sailers' Home at Newcastle. He then took a job as a seaman on the Swanhilda in the name of Lee Weller and sailed from Newcastle to San Francisco.

On Monday 7 December 1896, Mr Payten, the Chamber Magistrate in Sydney, sat in Chambers at the office of the Inspector-General of Police and received ex-parte evidence with a view to establishing a case sufficiently strong against Butler to warrant the Imperial authorities obtaining his extradition upon his arrival at San Francisco. A large number of witnesses were examined.

At the end, Mr Payten ordered the issue of warrants for the arrest of one Frank Harwood, alias S. Burgess, alias Butler, alias Simpson, alias Clare, alias Lee Weller. Detective Roche left the same day with the warrants and a certified copy of the depositions taken at the court for Adelaide, where he will join the RMS Austral for London. When he arrived there he was to take the steps necessary to secure the extradition of Butler (since Australian law at that time still had England as the overseeing authority). He was then to proceed to America.

Constabulary Probationer McConroy, who was acquainted with Butler through the negotiations he had with him about the proposed prospecting tour, left Sydney by the SS Miowera on Wednesday 9 December 1896 for Vancouver, en route for San Francisco, with the object of procuring the arrest of Butler in the Swanhilda before she entered the port of San Francisco.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:57 pm

Part2

On Thursday 21 January 1897, a Mr Mulhall and his son found a body in thick scrub at the foot of the Black Range Mountains. This was 20 miles from Waroo (called Warroo in my maps), about 46 kilometres west of Forbes which is about 34 kilometres south-west of Parkes. It was assumed that the body was of Lesagh. He had been shot in the back of the head. However, the body turned out to be that of Burgess.

On Friday 29 January 1897 it was discovered the Lesagh was still alive. He was living in Grafton on the NSW North Coast. He had been there for at least 18 months and was using the name Miller (he said because people could not pronounce his real name). He said he had not been in Sydney in August or September and had not purchased a wagon and horses. The same day, a chest was discovered in Sydney in a second hand dealer shop (owned by Woolf) in Bathurst Street. In it was found items belong to Captain and Mrs Lee Weller.

On 2 February 1897 on arrival of the Swanhilda in San Francisco, Detective McHattie, of Newcastle, and Constable Conroy from Sydney searched the boat and found articles of jewellery belonging to Waller, a portrait of Mrs Weller, a diploma in the name of Harwood, a jacket belong to Preston and was wearing Lee Weller's boots. He claimed to have not known Weller, despite using his name and having some of his possessions. It was also reported that he had packets of strychnine powders in his possessions. Mrs Etta Butler of Napa, California, claimed that he was her husband.

While in custody in San Francisco, Butler claimed that Weller accidently shot himself. ON 3 February 1897 the request for extradition was deferred till 8 February 1897. Butler then claimed that he was forced to accept Weller's belongings. He then claimed that he was Weller, so could not have murdered himself. A new extradition for murdering Preston was lodged.

Mrs Etta Butler claimed about 10 February 1897 that her previous claim that Butler was her husband were wrong and that she was mistaken! On 9 February 1897 during the extradition process, Butler admitted that his real name was Richard Ashe.

On about 27 February 1897 Butler was approved for extradition back to Sydney. At the same time, a reporter from the Francisco Examiner ascertained from Butler that his real name is John Newnan and that he was born at West Bromwich. He also claimed that he was in the British army, serviing in the Zulu and Egyptian wars. However, given his claims over the past five years as to his identity, this has to be viewed with caution.

Finally, on Monday 5 April 1897, Butler left San Francisco on the SS Mariposa bound for Sydney. He informed one of the NSW Police who were accompanying him that he shot Preston in self defence and buried his body as he was frightened. He again claimed that Weller shot himself, this time it was in an act of suicide as he was distraught over the death of his wife.

On Friday 23 April 1897 the Mariposa arrived in Auckland, New Zealand. On Tuesday 27 April 1897 she arrived in Sydney. On the voyage, at times Butler was in a talkative mood. He was full of reminiscences, some of which were so startling as that one of the Police escorting him called him a "born liar." Butler stated that his first experience of Western Australia was when the sailing ship Ulidia, on which he joined in Liverpool (England) for Sydney, was wrecked near Rottnest Island. He declared that he first came to Australia in one of the Adelaide Steamship Company's steamers, which he identifies by saying that it was the vessel that relieved the Rob Roy in tho West Australian trade. In June, 1892, he landed at Fremantle, was paid off, and went to Coolgardie.

There he was seized with fever, and upon his recovery he proceeded to Fremantle, where he spent or lost all his money and had to walk back 300 miles to the goldfield to resume work. It was doing this that he got into trouble with the Police which ended in his being sentenced to a term of imprisonment.

He got to a little place called Northam and thought there was no fun in tramping any farther. He accordingly offered to sell to a traveller who wanted to buy horses one of three which he saw in a paddock. The man gave him £40 for the animal, and he handed him a receipt for the amount, signed "Richard Asche". He was traced for twelve days, and finally arrested and sent to Fremantle, where he was charged with horse-stealing. After he got cut of gaol he had adventures with the blacks, several of whom he shot, and especially in an affray in which a party tent out to avenge the death of a man named Frank Searle was concerned. Butler was consistently reticent as to how he became possessed of the certificate of Mr Harwood, the assayer, but states that he lived for nine months in Western Australia under that name, and for four years under the name of Ashe [sic].

Once in Sydney Harbour, he was transferred to a launch and taken to shore. He was put in a Police van and taken to Darlinghurst Gaol. Here he was formally charged with with the murders of Lee Weller and Preston.

Butler declared that he had no money and was therefore allocated defence counsel by the Government. On Sunday 2 May 1897 it was announced that Mr Edmunds, assisted by Mr R. Bloomfield, would defend Butler and be instructed by Mr Mark Williamson. The prosecution would be conducted by the Attorney-General "in person", assisted by Mr Wade, the Crown Prosecutor and Mr E. S. Scarvell. The trial was due to start on May 31.

On about Tuesday 11 May 1897 "rules nisi" were granted by the Full Court of New South Wales against the printers and publishers of the Sydney Daily Telegraph, Sydney Morning Herald, Evening News and Australian Star on the motion of Butler, calling upon them to show cause on Thursday 13 May why writs of attachment should not issue against them for contempt of Court for publishing statements which, it was alleged, were calculated to prejudice the jury against Butler.

On Thursday 13 May 1897 the Court found the newspaper publishers guilty of contempt and fined them £100 each.

The trial was postponed till 14 June 1897. On Monday 14 June 1897 the trial started before Chief Justice Darley at the Central Criminal Court at Darlinghurst. It appears that the trial was only for Weller's murder. On the first day 27 witnesses appeared before the Court. Some of the evidence presented was that the shot to the head could not have been self inflected (as claimed at one time by Butler) and that there were many items owned by Weller that were found in the possession of Butler in San Francisco.

The next day the secondhand dealer Woolf gave evidence that Butler sold Weller's sea chest to him. Detective Roche who arrested Butler in San Francisco, gave details of statements made to him by Butler. One was that Weller had sold to Butler the many items that Butler had in his possession.

On Wednesday 16 June 1897 Butler attempted to kill himself before the Court started. He tried to use the sharp point of a tobacco tin to cut his throat, but the cut was vertical and shallow. This was the second time he attempted suicide, the other been when in gaol in San Francisco. When Butler finally was brought into the Court, a huge fracas occurred, with Butler fighting the Police who were escorting him. It took a while, but finally he calmed down enough to be put in a straight jacket and for the trial to proceed. When Butler was offered the chance to make a statement, his Counsel advised that his medical state (the result of the suicide attempt and his fight with the Police) meant that he needed an adjournment.

The Chief Justice granted an adjournment. In the afternoon the trial resumed, with Butler giving evidence through his counsel. His claims were similar to that made previously, that Weller had killed himself. After this the Chief Justice summed up the evidence and the jury retired. It reurned one hour and twenty minutes later. The jury's verdict was guilty and the Chief Justice gave Butler a death sentence.

On Wednesday 23 June 1897, the Full Court heard an appeal on a point of law (that the crime that he was convicted of was not the crime for which he was extradited from the USA) but they rejected the appeal and upheld the conviction.

On Friday 25 June 1897, the Executive Council (this is composed of senior members of the NSW Parliament) set a date of 16 July 1897 for Butler's execution.

At 9 am on Friday 16 July 1897, Frank Butler was executed by hanging in the Darlinghurst Gaol. When asked if he had any last words, he proclaimed "Let her go". This was presumably a reference to the trap door. The day before his executon, he called into his cell Mr Herbert, the Governor of the Gaol, and admitted his guilt to the murders of Weller, Preston and Burgess. He confessed to killing another man called Price. When shown a photograph of this person, he agreed that this was him. I have no further knowledge of this. He also implied that he had murdered another man, Davis, in company with others.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:24 am

WOW what a story. Thanks to Admin and John for their research into his man. Like 90th said, this could well be made into a movie.

THE MURDERER'S REAL NAME.
The authorities now know Butler's real name was not Butler, or Ashe, or Newman, or any name yet published. They are in possession of his real name, and know that his relatives are fairly well to do people in England. They are further of opinion that it would only give them, pain and serve no good purpose to publish.
What I would like to know now is IS HIS REAL Name :lol!:

As it was over 100 years ago, could we not find out under the Information of Freedom Act ?

The story will continue !!!!

Many thanks guys for the info

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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:57 am

It certainly would be interesting to find out his real name. If someone could point me in the right dircetion i'll have a go.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:12 am

Hi John

The problem we have here is this all took place in Australia. We would need a memeber like 90th to start looking in Australia, but Aus is a very big place and do they have the Information of Freedom Act ?

90th could you or know of anyone over there that could assist with this story?

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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:25 pm

One of Butler Victims was a Captain.

CAPTAIN LEE WELLER ( -1896) sea captain. Weller was a murder victim of Frank Butler who had also killed two other men. "The Mountain Mystery" case was a sensation in 1896 when the bodies were discovered in the Blue Mountains. Butler was extradited from the United States and hanged at Darlinghurst Gaol on 16th July, 1897.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:38 pm

1879Graves Butlers was thought to have murdered at least three victims. Their names are registered in the Australian War Memorial lists as
Arthur Lowe, no 51,Trooper, 5 Bn Aust Cmwlth Horse, NSW, and George Munro. no 53, Trooper, 5 Bn Aust Cmwlth Horse, NSW
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:57 am

1879Graves.

The detective investigating. Claims that Richard Ashe, was Butler real name. As he had traced him on that name more than any other.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:19 pm

THE MURDERER'S REAL NAME.
The authorities now know Butler's real name was not Butler, or Ashe, or Newman, or any name yet published. They are in possession of his real name, and know that his relatives are fairly well to do people in England. They are further of opinion that it would only give them, pain and serve no good purpose to publish.

I have checked the Medal Roll for R Ashe, no Richard Ashe! Many thanks for the Info John & Admin, if you find anything else please let me know.

I do believe that this man, whoever he was, did not take part in the Zulu War of 1879? but I do not have any evidence to prove it one way or the other.

I will keep reaseaching this story and see what turns up. :lol!:
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:34 pm

Image of our man.

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PostSubject: R.ASHE.   Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:42 pm

Hi 1879graves.
Wish i had seen your post !, I went through the medal roll of all the regts at ginginlondvu and drew a blank on R. ASHE.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:39 pm

The book about Butler, may contain a lot more information. if someone can be bothered to write a book on the Blue Mountain Murders, then you can be assured he would have researched the life of Butler.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:06 pm

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In 1893, a mysterious man arrived in Sydney. Having many aliases, the main one used was Frank Butler. After a long criminal past through Europe, America, Chile and Coolgardie, he headed for Sydney with a stolen Mining Engineers Certificate.

Rather than prospecting for gold, Butler realised that murdering his companions would be a faster and more lucrative venture. Three prospectors were quickly dispatched, buried in shallow graves and their belongings stolen. Assuming the identity of his last victim, “Lee Weller”, Butler obtained a job on the Swanhilda, leaving on the 23rd November bound for San Francisco.

Friends soon reported the missing men, and Detective John Roche was assigned to the case. Blacktrackers found their camp near Glenbrook, sparking a frenzied search in the lower Blue Mountains. Three bodies were later found.

The Swanhilda had been at sea for two weeks when an exchange of newspapers occurred with another ocean steamer. On reading newspaper stories of the “Blue Mountains Murders”, the Captain realised the suspect was aboard his ship and used the telegraph to discreetly advise the NSW police.

John Roche now knew where his suspect was, but needed to catch him before he disappeared into the vastness of America. Acting fast, he took a train to Adelaide via Melbourne and a steamer to London. Travelling to New York and then overland to San Francisco, this was an enormous journey at the time. Arriving just ahead of the Swanhilda, John Roche immediately made preparations for the arrest of the fugitive.

On the 2nd February, Swanhilda entered San Francisco harbour. Butler was immediately identified by local police and arrested at gunpoint. Taken by complete surprise, he did not resist.

The news of the dramatic arrest by the heroic NSW detectives spread fast, becoming a popular newspaper story. On return to Sydney, Butler was found guilty and hanged in Darlinghurst Gaol.

For John Roche, it had been a major case, a long and harrowing trip around the world, but, in the end, he had seen justice done and the case successfully closed. The case launched him to new heights in the NSW Police Force for his doggedness, thoroughness and relentless courage in pursuing a dangerous criminal. The chase would also go down in Police legend as one of the great criminal investigations with the name of John Roche at the very centre of the enquiry.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:45 pm

The Book details that Admin found.

Murder in the Blue Mountains / [by] Robert Travers
Book
Bib ID 2162686
Format Book
Author Travers, Robert, 1932-
Description Richmond, Vic. : Hutchinson of Australia, 1972.
176p. : plates ; 23cm.
ISBN 0091137004 :
Notes
Murderers. Butler, Frank, 1858-1897. Australia (ANB/PRECIS SIN 600161676)

Dust jacket has subtitle: Being the true story of Frank Butler, one of Australia's most notorious criminals.
Index.

I will try and scource this book.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:35 pm

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Also: HARWOOD, Frank. Name used by murderer of A.T. PRESTON and possibly Lee WELLER in NSW in 1896.

Possibly correct name CHAPLIN. Photo on file.
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PostSubject: murder in the blue mtns   Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:37 am

hi all.
This was the cheapest i could find.
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cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: murder in the blue mtns, more copies   Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:49 am

hi all
They are coming thick and fast now !!!.
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cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:16 pm

I see our man Butler, tryed to do the hangman out of a job.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:45 pm

Just had another look came across this. Read the link.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:48 pm

Hi 24th

Many thanks for the info. I am trying to get a copy of the book through the library system, but they do not hold a copy in Devon. If anyone gets a copy and finds Butler's real name, please let me know.

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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:33 pm

I hope we do find out his real name. But he told so many lies. would we believe him anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:48 pm

Hi Chelmsfordthescapegoat

I have to agree with you on that one, He told so many lies, we may never know his real name. That would be a real shame.

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PostSubject: butler ? newman ?   Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:41 pm

hi 1879graves.
I have ordered a copy of MURDER IN THE BLUE MTNS from abebooks in the uk, 1.25 QUID, 8.00 QUID postage, should arrive
Wed or Thurs of next week, hope the answer is in there.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:37 am

I have a feeling this person was connected to a well-known English Family.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:02 pm

Nice one 90th. Hope it gives us the infoe we are looking for.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:41 pm

Hi All

Admin, I believe that you are correct as it states in some of the reports thats why his real name has never been given out.

90th, Looks like you will be the first to read the book, hopefully you will have all the answers then :lol!:
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:52 pm

Quote :
hi 1879graves.
I have ordered a copy of MURDER IN THE BLUE MTNS from abebooks in the uk, 1.25 QUID, 8.00 QUID postage, should arrive
Wed or Thurs of next week, hope the answer is in there.
cheers 90th.

As in arrived yet, 90th
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PostSubject: butler who.   Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:57 am

hi ctsg.
No sign of the book as yet , it"s as elusive as the the title character :lol!:
cheers 90th :)
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 4:52 pm

Hi 90th

Any news on the book's arrival ? :lol!:
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:27 pm

I had forgotten about this topic. Any news 90th
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PostSubject: butler ? newman ?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:24 am

hi all.
No sign of the book as yet , Im not worried yet as its coming surface mail , can take 12 -14 weeks and I
ordered it on the 1st sept. I"m getting a little nervy waiting for " THE GLAMOUR AND TRAGEDY OF THE ZULU WAR "
by W.H CLEMENTS , this book first published in 1881 , my copy is a modern re-print It was ordered 1st AUG. It
deals with Clements interviewing some of the colonials who survived Isandlwana. Will let you know when Butler
arrives .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: who is Butler in the zulu war.   Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:22 am

hi all.
The book MURDER IN THE BLUE MOUNTAINS by ROBERT TRAVERS has finally arrived !, It arrived friday 20/11..I wanted to finish the W.H CLEMENTS book THE GLAMOUR AND THE TRAGEDY OF THE ZULU WAR which is an excellent publication , I will go into
more detail later. As for FRANK BUTLER ! , According to the author TRAVERS he says " RICHARD ASHE was tried and convicted and
hanged under his alias FRANK BUTLER !. I started reading it Sat night and read 90 pages , so I am halfway , It was difficult to put it
down. As for him being in the zulu war , who knows !!!!. The following is his application to join the MANITOBA MTD POLICE under one
of his assumed aliases , " December 10th 1886 Sackett"s Harbour , Jefferson Co, N.Y. USA.
" I John George Newman, being desirous of joining the North West Mtd Police , respectfully ask for information concerning the same.
Applicant"s age 28 , single , formerly a N.C.Officer in a field telegraph troop , Royal Engineers , British Army . Recently employed as
an assistant Quebec Observatory , in possesion of first- class certificates for Musketry , Signalling and Horemanship . Sergeants
R.E. Discharge and Medals for service in Zulu and Egyptian Campaigns , and testimonials for ability and conduct from GENERAL
SIR .C. WILSON, KCB. The director of the meteorological service of Canada , and others . Will forward same if neccessary.
Trust in your favourable consideration , JOHN . G. NEWMAN.
According to the author Travers , he no doubt stole the medals and the certificates , as from what I have read he had pilfered many tents in his time in Australia and no doubt anywhere else he arrived. Ashe ( J.G.NEWMAN) travelled to REGINA with his Medals and Certificates and
was enlisted in the North West Mtd Police on Jan 21st 1887. He deserted after a month . This was one of his many desertions .
Royal Navy , U.S ARMY , Seaman . A very interesting read , not someone you would go off to the Blue Mtns with, as for the 3
who did , they found their bodies later and the pursiut of Ashe ( Butler , Newman , Weller , Harwood , Clare, Sampson ) began.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:52 am

90th. Nice one already sound interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:31 pm

90th have you had time to read the book, which may hold the answer to our mystery Zulu War veteran. Wink
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PostSubject: who is Butler in the zulu war.   Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:32 am

hi pete,
Havent had much time lately, about 30 pages to go, Have just started reading about the trial , there is
no mention so far of him being in the zulu war, only when he applied to join the mounties under the name of
" Newman ". It is an interesting book.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:15 am

Hi 90th

Have you read the last 30 pages yet?

Any news on his real name scratch
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PostSubject: who is Butler in the zulu war.   Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:40 am

hi 1879graves .
Yes , managed to finish it last week. The author is adamant his name was RICHARD ASHE . He mentions this
at the start of the book and at the end . Whatever his name was , he wasnt a nice man . Rolling Eyes . There is no mention
of the zulu war . read my post from 2 /12 / 09. It is the only time where it mentions anything to do with zulu war ( medal).
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:53 am

Hi 90th

So we can put this one to bed now. He did not take part in the Zulu War! as far as we know scratch
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PostSubject: who is Butler in the zulu war.   Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:00 am

hi 1879graves.
I would go along with that , the zulu war medal he had when he applied for the mounties ( canada) was named to
Newman . He spent a lot of time prospecting in Western Australia and it seems he was looking to get rich
by going through other prospectors tents and belongings . :lol!: .
cheers 90th
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:25 am

Hi 90th

Are we saying that Butler could have stolen a medal that belonged to J Newman RE?
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PostSubject: who is Butler in the zulu war.   Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:43 am

hi 1879graves.
No doubt . Here is the letter he sent to apply for the position in Canada .

I , John George Newman , being desirous of joining the Noth West Mounted Police , respectfully
ask for information concerning the same. Applicants age 28 , single , formerly a N.C officer in a
field telegraph troop , R.E. British Army. Recently employed as an assistant , Quebec Observatory.
In possession of first - class certificates for Musketry , signalling and horsemanship. Sergeants
R.E. discharge and medals for service in zulu and egyptian campaigns , and testimonials for ability
and conduct from General Sir C .Wilson , KCB , the director of the meteorological service of canada
and others . John G Newman.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:01 pm

Hi 90th

The only Newman, Royal Engineers, that took part in the Zulu War was a S Newman, 5th Company, Royal Engineers.
I have not yet had look at the original medal roll for the R.E. to see if the S Newman could be a J Newman.

Going back to the start, The newspaper article states that Butler was in the Navy during the Zulu War.
Does that book state anything about his service in the Navy?
The reason I ask, if Butler was a thief and had taken a Zulu War Medal from a J Newman, there were three J Newman's that were in the Navy and took part in the Zulu War, so it could be one of them. But then leaves the question as to the Royal Engineer Newman
scratch :lol!:
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PostSubject: Re: Who is Butler in the Zulu War?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:39 pm

So the case is not closed. 90th thanks for taking the time to purchase the book and reading it. Wink
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