WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  PublicationsPublications  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
Colonel R.T. Glyn, 1/24th Regt. kwaSokhexe, Ulundi
[Mac and Shad](Isandula Collection)
Secrets Of The Dead The Mystery Of Zulu Dawn
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
 
littlehand
 
Frank Allewell
 
ADMIN
 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
 
John
 
Mr M. Cooper
 
1879graves
 
impi
 
rusteze
 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Top posting users this month
Drummer Boy 14
 
Frank Allewell
 
rusteze
 
90th
 
ADMIN
 
SRB1965
 
Julian Whybra
 
ymob
 
1879graves
 
xhosa2000
 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share | 
 

 Durnfords retreat.

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
AuthorMessage
rusteze

avatar

Posts : 2219
Join date : 2010-06-02

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:49 pm

I must say I warm to Durnford much more than I warm to Chelmsford. In particular I think the grit and perseverance he showed in 1873 was remarkable even though the result did not endear him to colonial society. In 1878/79 his greatest achievement, in my view, was to create the native contingents in a very short space of time. But again he was undermined by the quality of characters placed in subordinate roles. They were also chronically underarmed because of the fears of the colonial population. Given that the imperial forces were significantly under strength for the task in hand, i think this was crucial and Durnford recognised it. Had the NNC battalions performed as well as his own Native Horse the outcome may have been different.

Steve
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

avatar

Posts : 912
Join date : 2015-11-24

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:50 pm

However, on the 22nd January 1879, it could be argued by some (and not necessarily by me) that his military career was far from remarkable and it got worse as the day wore on....

Sime.. Hmmm... Can't see myself arguing against that statement, except to say that even on that
fateful day AWD sold himself dearly and certainly bought time for other's. he organised and carried out
a splendid text book withdrawal and duly organised one of the largest ' last stand's '.

I really find it hard, and i must confess a bit irritated by the continual comparison to GAC. Anthony was
a kind compassionate and even sensitive soul.. and i think Custer was the complete opposite, a vain
glorious pompous nutjob who found genocide to his liking, a complete anathema to all around him,
not afraid to disobey any direct order until in the end he was slapped down, his wife Libby i believe
intervened with Sheridan to restore to him a command. at the battle of the greasy grass he threw
his column commanders under the bus, leaving Reno in the lurch and Benteen off on his famous scout
to the left. needless to say the ammunition he was so desperate for... never arrived. and he was
killed, the squaws are said to have put awl's through his ears in order that he could hear better in
the afterlife. this is just my opinion, there are ( i know ) people on here who are really into Custer.and
will no doubt tell me if i have any facts wrong. thanks for your reply. xhosa
Back to top Go down
SRB1965



Posts : 135
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 52
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:28 pm

Hi,

It could be because they both had moustaches......

GAC was all of those things that you mention (and probably a good deal more) I'm not sure if it was Libby who interceded on his behalf, I know that Terry and Sheridan helped smooth the water between Grant and him.

It was not the first time that he left someone in the lurch, some officer and a patrol was abandoned earlier in his career (can't remember his name) but it caused a lot of ill feeling within the 7th and Benteen thought he was doing it again to LBH.

It didn't help that it was not a particularly unified command in the 7th (thanks to GAC's favouritism)

Strangely enough until a few years ago (at west Point) officer cadets are given a 'blind' wargame scenario, with the same objectives as GAC at LBH and they invariably devise a - plan similar to one used on the day.

I have read about the spikes in his ears (and also another mutilation - involving an arrow...which was concealed from Libby)

I don't think Benteens ammo would have helped much. I spose he went in with a proven plan (that worked before) but when something went wrong - 'Custers Luck' finally deserted him.....and he was unable to retrieve the situation....even if Benteen and Reno (if sober enough) would have rallied to him, I think they were still in trouble....

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
SRB1965



Posts : 135
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 52
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:10 pm

Steve,

I think another 'fault' with the NNIC, was that fact that it was insisted that they were organised and drilled (to some degree) along European lines. They would have been better employed, fighting in an irregular tribal way, under their own leaders (OK maybe the 'battalion' or 'company' commanders would be European).

Somewhere I have the book 'Black Soldiers of the Queen' which is really good on the subject of the NNIC/NNMC.

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9341
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Durnford's Retreat    Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:48 am

SRB1965
Sime , it was Major Joel Elliott who Custer as you say through under the bus , along with 10 - 15 Soldiers from memory , and again from memory was it the Sandy Creek Massacre or the Battle of Washita ? .
90th agree
Back to top Go down
SRB1965



Posts : 135
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 52
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:51 am

90th wrote:
SRB1965
Sime ,  it was Major Joel Elliott who Custer as you say through under the bus , along with 10 - 15 Soldiers from memory ,  and again from memory was it the Sandy Creek Massacre or the Battle of Washita ? .
90th agree

Hi 90th, yeah that's right, it was Elliot.....now you mention it, I think it was after Washita.....I was trying to remember from a couple of documentaries' on TV, I watched a while ago.

Thanks a lot

Sime
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9341
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Durnford's Retreat    Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:33 am

Hi Sime
I was a Custer phile until the zulu war took over back in 2005 or so . I have quite a few books on the American West , but havent looked at one in 12 years I just remembered !!! , several I havent even read to be honest Shocked Shocked
90th
Back to top Go down
SRB1965



Posts : 135
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 52
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:34 am

Hi,

I find LBH fascinating probably for the same reason as Isandlwana - the fact that the evidence is sketchy (or almost non existant in the case of LBH) - except from the victors (who were largely ignored).

The Archaeological investigation & evidence (particularly the forensic side of it) from LBH is far superior (perhaps due to the nature of the soil) than Isandlwana.

I spose being a 'young' nation with lots of recent wars (on home territory) - AWI, ACW, Indian Wars etc they look after their battlefields better. Where as in the old world we have neither the living space nor real interest to maintain ours.

In the UK we have no defining point in our history (AWI, ACW, The Alamo - in case of Texas) - 1066 was so long ago and the ECW did not really change much (for most of the population).

Whilst I have your ear - do the Aussies make a big deal about Eureka Stockade or it largely forgotten - albeit nothing as major (or defining) as the American battles mentioned above.

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9341
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Durnford's Retreat    Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:17 pm

Hi Sime
I doubt anyone out here in Australia under the age of 30 has even heard of the Eureka Stockade , it , was after all , only a relatively small affair compared to defining moments in history of many other nations . As important as it was to the Miner's of the time , it doesnt really have the air of a major confrontation .
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
SRB1965



Posts : 135
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 52
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:13 pm

Strange that - it was one of the display games, I used to put on at wargames conventions/show around the UK (about 20 years ago)....it used to be good fun....'Crimean War' British and the less flamboyant 'Wild West' figures for the miners....

Spose it was more of riot than a battle........

Thanks a lot

Sime
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

avatar

Posts : 912
Join date : 2015-11-24

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:25 pm

Durnford's reputation as a maverick, reckless commander as we know can
be traced back to BRP... but even then all was not as it seemed.. IK. sent
me this booklet a couple of years ago i guess.. it show's the preliminary
sketch of his famous painting of the BRP incident.. the author makes the
case that the Shepstone's suppressed the truth and pressured the artist to
produce a ' sanitised ' version. thus the first scape goating of Durnford.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9341
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Durnford's Retreat    Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:56 pm

Hi Les
Last Nov when Ian and a few of us went to SA , we where fortunate enough to meet Graham Dominy who showed us the Rocket Trough they have in the Pietermaritzberg Museum , he also showed us the Original sketch done of The Bushmans River pass incident , we had a room to ourselves so we where able to touch and handle the Rocket Trough along with Rockets as well , it was a great morning . Unfortunately this Months trip has been cancelled.
90th Very Happy
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

avatar

Posts : 912
Join date : 2015-11-24

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:18 pm

Hiya mate, i would have loved to have got my hand's on that rocket trough as
well as a live rocket, there's a few on my street i would like to see running for
their lives. Joker soz about your trip i'm guessing it was a numbers thing, but
that's more pennies for sag's innit. Wink xhosa
Back to top Go down
SRB1965



Posts : 135
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 52
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:26 pm

Hi

Just out of interest is the trough in PM Museum, one from Isandlwana and if not were the (3?) troughs from Isandlwana ever recovered/found or were they trashed by the Zulus?

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

avatar

Posts : 912
Join date : 2015-11-24

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:11 pm

Hi Sime, i'm sure the 90th will tell you, but from memory i seem to recall
the rev Charles Johnson clearing away a rocket when he was settling his
church at Isandhlwana. xhosa
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9341
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: Durnford's Retreat    Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:44 am

Hi Sime
The Rocket trough in the PM Museum is from Fort Cherry on the Middle Drift , where Durnford was initially before he was ordered to move to RD . I'm not 100 % sure but I dont think the Rocket Troughs was recovered from Isandlwana , but I may be having a senior moment ! . Les is correct , at least a couple of Rockets were found post war , by , from memory , the Rev Johnson .
90th
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6470
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:17 pm

Coincidentl Ive been having a similar discussion of line with a forum member. Rockets were spread all over the battlefield. Davies comments on sending his men to collect boxes and then dumping them on the plain because they were to heavy.
There are 2 reports of mules running around with rocket panniers strapped on.
Then of course there is the only recorded case of a rocket t Isandlwana actually doing its job:

"“On a certain Sunday, just at the scanty congregation was gathering for worship in the school-church grass hut which also did duty as a store-room on occasions when there was anything to store, a huge rocket which had been dropped by the rocket-battery when that unit was cut to pieces by the Zulus in the battle of Isandhlwane, caught fire from some burning grass, and came with a swoop and a roar right into the little camp”.

With thanks to Ymob for the above.

There was also two rockets found by the proprietor of the hotel down on the Durnford Donga ( The first Hotel in the area) One was dug out of the donga and one was found on the plain and given to Ryder Haggard.

In the iSandlwana tourist centre there is a rocket reputably found at iSandlwana, and tht could easily be the one refered to by 90th as being found by Johnson.

Cheer

Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

avatar

Posts : 912
Join date : 2015-11-24

PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:43 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Durnfords retreat.   

Back to top Go down
 
Durnfords retreat.
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 6 of 6Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: