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 Appendix 4, Neils Book

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90th

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PostSubject: Appendix 4 , Neils Book    Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:49 am

Hi Frank
Actually it isn't a bad shot in the scheme of things , I wont be going there this trip , not at this stage . Will most likely re visit that area again on Ian's next trip , as we want to get in again where the Sihayo action took place , we got in there amongst all the Thornbush last time , interesting experience as you are well aware ! . We want to spend a few more hours in there poking around , I wonder if the rivers are still low ? .
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:15 am

Virtually no rivers flowing anywhere in SA at present still in the throes of the drought. Cape Town is on severe water restrictions, we have water left in the dams for around 90 days and that's not enough to get us to the rainy season. When is your next trip?
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PostSubject: Appendix 4 , Neils Book    Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:04 pm

Fly out of Melb 29th March . Not good about the rivers . No No No No
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:48 pm

Lt George Stanhope Banister

Present with LC's column. He claimed they left Isandlwana just before first light. By the time the last of the column started to move out it was daylight and they could see the devastation that was left behind.

Their journey back;
We had to pass two places where we expected to have to fight our way through, but found our passage unopposed. Once we thought they would try and cut off the rear when a few of them appeared on a hill on our right, but they bolted on being greeted with a shot or two. One or two were killed on the way - stragglers whose curiosity cost them dear for our Natives emulated them in the guste with which they used their assegais. Just before reaching the worst place we had to pass, an overhanging precipice at the bottom of which ran the road. We saw them gathering in large numbers in our rear, but they did not come near enough for us even to fire a shot at them.

Frank do you know where this area is?

Thanks

Geraint
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:54 am

Morning Taff
Doesn't ring any bells Im afraid, I cant place that point on the old military road except possibly where it cuts around the base of the hill at kwaSohexe. 90th has spent quite some time recently fighting his way through the bush in that area maybe he could shed some light on it?
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PostSubject: Appendix 4 , Neils Book    Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:03 am

Sorry to say it doesn't ring any bells with me either . As I said earlier , I wont be heading to that area this trip , but will short list it for later in the Year , hopefully on Ian Knight's tour later this year .
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:26 pm

Evening both

Never mind, thanks anyway. Maybe we can take a look in July Frank.
Are there any maps on here that show where Kwasohexe is in relation to Isandlwana and Rorkes Drift?

Geraint
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:40 pm

Taff
Have a look back at the prievious page and the map I posted with kens scribbles on. The top colour, pinkish colour crosses the Batshe river then does a sharp right turn from the horizontal. That turn is right in front of kwa Sohexe.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:28 pm

I got it.

Thanks Frank
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PostSubject: The old drift on the Umzintathi   Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:49 pm

Hi Frank,
I trust that you are keeping well.
A long shot.
Would you happen to have a picture , taken at the sides of  the Buffalo river at the old drift, of the two heavy steel staunchions imbedded there in the days of yore; and  put there for  securing the cables across the river ?

regards

barry.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:24 pm

Hi Barry
Ive spent hours searching the banks trying to find them. I saw one around twenty years ago but nowhere to be found at the moment, They were old railway lines. Probably gone the same route as the gates to the isandlwana memorial and the steel shields of the fence. Im going up there in june/july and I will have a word with Charles and Paul from the Hotel to see if they have any thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:26 am

Barry
Im of to Rorkes Drift tomorrow for a week, I will spend some time again checking the banks.
90th
Lots of thunderstorms forcast for the battlefields in the next few days so hopefully by the time you get there the rivers will be flowing.
Frederic
Im spending a couple of days in the archives at Talana I will pass on your regards to Pam.
Taff/Steve
Photos of the area and views are on the list.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:22 am

Bonjour Frank,
Thanks.
Have a good trip.
Kind regards
Frédéric
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PostSubject: The old drift   Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:06 am

Hi Frank,
Have a good trip. Pics of the two poles, if possible, will be grand.
However watch the river level as it is cyclone season now and the first of the season is already touching the Moz coast. Extreme humidity, torrential rain and flash flooding is all part of this annual late summer phenomenon.

barry
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:52 am

Morning barry
That's the forcast for the next week. I was in that area when demoina hit in 84. Drove over the Ngwebini crossing of the Nqutu road no problem coming back an hour later it was a raging torrent. Wouldn't believe a tiny stream could take a heavy saloon car that hard. I managed to get out of it and drove across the old dirt tracks to Silutshana. Scarry stuff. Still all part of the adventure.

Cheers mate
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PostSubject: Cyclone Dineo   Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:36 pm

Hi Frank,
A heads up on the weather ahead.
Live feeds from the SA weather service show that Cyclone Dineo is still in the Moz channel but only 750 kms NE of Isandlwana, ie the eye of the cyclone is in the channel opposite Maxixe (as at 00h00Z). It appear to be heading SE at 75kts. The lowest isobar measures 980hPa and the highest 1008hpa, this is opposite LM (Maputo). It has been uprated in the past 6 hours to a category 4 cyclone and winds of 200km/hr are forecast with 100mm of rain expected in 24 hours. However, these things are female by nature and can change their minds, heading harmlessly out to sea,..... sometimes.
So, batten down the hatches, keep your powder dry,pump up your dinghy, remembering to keep away from the river bank.
Have a good trip.

barry
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:48 pm

Us Brits called that a Breeze! Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Appendix 4 , Neils Book    Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:38 am

Thanks Frank , enjoy yourself , keep safe & dry !
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:02 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Some time back I formulated a theory to explain the apparent discrepancies in accounts of the morning of the 23rd January 1879.
Neil published this in the form of an appendix to his book and was kind enough to endorse the possibility of it.
As it has drawn some comment I thought it required publishing to the forum again so here it is. happy to answer any questions.

Rorkes Drift and the end of the Battle.

The days of the  22nd and 23rd of January 1879 have over the years spawned a number of abnormalities. Isandlwana because of the lack of eye witnesses probably more than any other battle in history.
The defence of the mission station at Rorkes Drift again has generated its fair share but here we have an abundance of eye witnesses.
One issue in particular has been the circumstances behind the cessation of hostilities on the morning of the 23rd.
Chard records: “About 4 am. 23rd inst. The firing ceased and at daybreak the enemy were out of sight over the hill to the South West “ ( he actually could not have known that and is probably assuming,  as it was from this direction the Zulus appeared at 7 o’clock)
And again: ‘We were removing the thatch from the roof of the stores when about 7am a large body of the enemy appeared on the hills to the SW…. About 8am the third column appeared in sight, the enemy who had been gradually advancing, falling back as they approached.

The defenders had a respite of some 4 hours from their exertions .

Captain Penn-Symonds, present with Lord Chelmsford’s column, recorded how the troops retiring from the battle field paused at the Manzimyama to refill their water bottles. They had marched only a little further when Symonds “perceived at short cannon range a large black mass of Zulus approaching directly towards us  from our left front.”
Lt  John Maxwell recorded that a lone warrior sprang from the Zulu mass rushing down the hillside towards the centre of the column and was shot dead at 30 yards.

The conundrum developing around the two instances above is that the Manzimyama valley is some 12 miles from Rorkes Drift and well out of sight. If this was the returning Zulu regiment that was attempting to attack at 8 am as described by John Chard how did they get to that valley in time to see Lord Chelmsford’s force?

As a second point to that, if they were indeed the regiment that was seen at Rorkes Drift at 8 o’clock how could their intentions have been thwarted by the sight of an imperial force when that force was many miles away and out of sight?

Fynn, present with Lord Chelmsford column recognised men in the Zulu force as belonging to the uThulwana regiment and that they were coming from the direction of Rorkes Drift.

If we accept all the evidence above we are left with the inescapable conclusion that the Zulu impi, by passing the imperial column was indeed the Rorkes Drift attackers. But then who was the impi that prepared to attack at 8am as recorded by Chard and many others.

When earlier the Fugitives had been chased and harassed to Sothondos  Drift the iNdluyengwe crossed the river along with elements of the uThulwana iNdlondo and Udloko took a leisurely approach towards Rorkes Drift. They were observed from the top of Shiyane to stop and take snuff before commencing various exercises dividing into groups and reassembling. The column of men split into two sections, Prince Damulamanzi ka Mpande lead his iNdluyengwe towards Rorkes Drift and other regiments split of to raid the farmhouses of Natal.

There were therefore two separate columns of Zulus operating in Natal that day. One fought the British defenders nobly and bravely for twelve hours and then retired tired from chasing the British and Colonials from the overnight base on the Nyoni plateau towards iSandlwana and then pursuing the fugitives across the rough ground to the Mzinyathi River, marching onto Rorkes Drift and fighting a long protracted battle.
The second had spent the evening raiding the farms and houses along the river, a less arduace task and had probably settled down at some point to rest.

It is my contention that this second column of men after their rested evening returned to Rorkes Drift to discover that their comrades had left the scene to return to the staging area above iSandlwana. After settling down on the hill they had viewed the scene of devastation at Rorkes Drift, and most likely seen the number of fallen warriors then decided to move forward, either to investigate further or indeed launch an attack. At that time the British column had had enough time to make its way towards Rorkes Drift and would have become visible coming over the rise leading down the long slope to the drift.

In summation then I would say that the Zulu column under Dabulamanzi had given up their fight at 4 am and set out on their weary retreat and encountered lord Chelmsford in the Manzimyama valley. The Zulus poised to attack Rorkes Drift at 8 am was in fact a second column that had not been involved in the earlier fighting.

Hope that helps



"Minute. February 23, 1879-
Special Border Agent, Umvoti, to Colonial Secretary.

I HAVE the honour to report that yesterday morning two Christian natives arrived from
Entumeni ; one, whose wife and family are here, proposes to return to Zululand in a few
days, if allowed, the other wishes to remain in Natal.

Bishop Schroeder and myself have had a long and interesting conversation with them,
the substance of which I now proceed to give, for his Excellency's information.

As regards the action at Isandhlwana, it is not extolled by the Zulus. They say no
fighting like that of the English horse and foot was ever seen before. My informant
grew quite excited and eloquent when describing the terrible fire poured into the Zulu
ranks by the 24th. The Zulu loss was enormous, and they retreated very hurriedly with
their booty when they found the General returning with the remainder of the column.
All the woimded who were unable to move were left to die. Remarkably few of those
wounded who reached their homes survived ; the Zulus imagine from this that our bullets
are poisoned. The cannons and oxen were taken to the King, the waggons were left.
All the other booty, arms, ammunition, clothes, money, ect was appropriated and
taken straight home by the soldiers. My informants have seen quantities of it in the
Zulus' possession. Seven of the principal regiments were present, numbering about
25,000 men, but only four of these, say, 19,000 men, were engaged at Isandhlwana ; two
more, say, 4,000, at Rorke's Drift ; and one, about 2,000, was in reserve.

If this is a true account, could it have been the reserve 2000  that appeared. Just a thought!!
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:38 am

Morning LH.
Its quite possible. There are quite a few accounts of the Zulus attacking farms etc on that evening along the Natal banks. There was a government report instituted that found around 30 people were killed in an area ranging from Elands Kraal to the foot of the Knostrop pass, in addition around 26 were kidnapped. Ostensibly to help drive captured cattle across the river ( Gibson/Zibhebhu kaMaphita). Spalding was also threatened on his attempt to return to camp.
So no doubt it did occur.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:11 pm

We increased the strength of our defences as much as possible, strengthening and raising our walls, putting sacks on the biscuit boxes, etc., and were removing the thatch from the roof of the commissariat store, to avoid being burnt out in case of another attack, when at about 7 a.m. a large body of the enemy ( I believe the same who had attacked us) appeared on the hills to the south west. I thought at the time that they were going to attack us, but from what I now know from the Zulus, and also of the number we put hors de combat, I do not think so. I think that they came up on the high ground to observe Lord Chelmsford's advance; from there they could see the column long before it came in sight of us......Chard to Queen Victoria...

Modern tourist's of today can only get a fleeting impression of the ground and terrain as it pertained in Jan 1879!. much has changed in the intervening 138 years.. yes sure the location
remains the same, but we are still only left with historical fact's, which for the most part are
firmly in the public domain!. i'm not going to make a big deal over this, i think the possibility of a
second impi working independently of the first impi led by Dabulamanzi is at best guesswork and speculative!.. i have refrained from hammering over this point! as all the account's
i have read over the years are consistent and state unequivocally that there was just the one impi
that attacked the mission station.. yes it is fact that other armed men, some in large group's crossed
over into Natal with the express intention to loot anything they could find.. which in reality turned
out to be a couple of deserted homestead's.. i find it interesting to read snooks account in LWOTF
in which he has at least four impi's swanning around.. i will stick with Chard's account thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:27 pm

Steve
Its difficult to get up on the hill because of the amount of fencing. Even looking from the opposite direction isn't that accurate. The road going through at present is a few hundred metres West from the old military road. But this is the view from the hill that blocks of the valley looking back at Rorkes Drift.
This is the first sighting from the road
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And as you get closer coming downhill to the drift, the mission is still invisible, 'round the corner'
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The first of the buildings, the old Deanery, on the site come into view
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Around halfway down the hill to the Buffalo the Mission comes into view, the tiny red speck is the church/storeroom roof.
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Your other thoughts that there may have been a Zulu still on Shiyane would have had a much worse view as he was again around the corner.
This would have been his view, the road is well out of view
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And this was his view back towards the hill, the building just right of centre  is the recreated hospital building
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If therefore the impi were at ground level they would have been in a worse view situation than the lookout on the storeroom walls. If for some reason they had elected to climb up to the rock strata level the earliest they would have seen the column approach would have been as the brested the hill approach to the Buffalo. If they had decided to climb to the top of the hill then they would have had a marginally better view to the backslope of the approach hill. But definitely not into either the Batshe valley or the Manzimyama valley. The question of why would they want to climb that hill then arrises? Why would they? They weren't expecting any British soldiers, they thought they were all dead! There does exist the possibility which to my mind has more credibility is that they could have sent a lookout up the hill to try and see where the other impi had gone ?

I have photos taken every few hundred metres from the Manzimyama all the way back. In doing that exercise I walked back along the old trail, the one I believe the uThulwana retreated along and from the descriptions from the column pin pointed an area I believe they passed the column.
As insignificant as it looks this fits all the angles. First looking back down the hill towards iSandlwana and the Manzimyama screen ( Incidently there is a diagonal line running from the saddle down to the right, that the Fugutives trail)
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Then a 90 degree turn to the right shown this area. The track back to RD cuts to the right of the low hill in front.
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Just something to chew over.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:47 pm

This is an aerial survey from 1944, the traditional track is very visible going from the bend at RD, a few hundred metres down stream from the traditional crossing
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:51 pm

And the map.
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Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:06 pm

rusteze wrote:
Frank is going to have to shin up there and take a look. From the map, I would say that the Zulus at RD could not see any of the Batshee, it is masked by Shiyane. But from south of that I think they can see pretty much to the Isandhlwana road through quite a narrow gap, which I think means beyond the Manzimyama. The scale of the map is about an inch to the mile in old money. I reckon a short cannon shot is a mile, how far "a little further" is who knows, less than a mile but guessing. Of course, the line of sight is not the line of march. Chelmsford would be confined to the road, the Zulus would not.

Steve

That's a good job done Frank. Thank you. While it still seems clear that the Batshee isn't visible from the SW heights (see above) and the dip of the Manzimyama Valley would also be dead ground,  sections of the route of Chelmsford's column might be seen. Our working hypothesis is that there are two Zulu impis appearing on the SW heights. The first begins to leave at about the same time as Chelmsford leaves the saddle (or a little later).  Is this the Impi that is observed by Penn Symons emerging from the Batshee just after the column passes the Manzimyama? The second Impi appears on the heights at 7.00am (perhaps, as you say looking for their comrades), sees Chelmsford as he approaches the Buffalo itself and disappears around the opposite side of Shiyane to avoid him? The main argument that supports some such scenario is that the Impi that appeared at 7.00am         could not have reached the point where the two columns crossed in the time available.

PS do you know the source of the map?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:25 pm

Hi Steve
The last effective action from the impi was just after 12/midnight. After that was the occasional shots fired. Its my contention that the uThulwana left then for the return trip and most probably s rest after an incredible day of exertion.
Yes that's the rub, even the omnipotent cant be in two places at once. So yes one impi, uThulwana, the second that has been killing and destroying up and down the river. 30 dead 26 taken, farms destroyed, Sufficient to make the provincial authorities investigate and report. Chard incidently in his report reports a large number congregating and advancing at the time Chelmsford put in an appearance. That says the two actions were simultaineous.
I do have a source for the map and as soon as Photobucket stop buggering around I shall post another one plus more aerial shots.
That sighting on the batshe by the way goes way beyond just PS, Harford, fynn plus a number of others.
Ive picked up a loy of interesting papers on this trip, as well as getting so bloody wet you wouldn't believe.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:32 pm

Bonsoir,

Frank wrote at the beginning of this thread:
“In summation then I would say that the Zulu column under Dabulamanzi had given up their fight at 4 am and set out on their weary retreat and encountered lord Chelmsford in the Manzimyama valley. The Zulus poised to attack Rorkes Drift at 8 am was in fact a second column that had not been involved in the earlier fighting”.

In support of his thesis, Frank quoted WP Symons, Fynn and Chard.

HB, who was at Isandhlwana during the night of 22/23 January told us that he saw in the distance (with Duncombe and Black) the farms attacked on the Natal side the same night (“A Lost Legionary in S.A”)

Lieutenant General Lord Chelmsford wrote to Sir Bartle Frere (Rorkes Drift 23 January 1879):
"A night attack was expected on the troops during last night [ Isandhlwana 22/23 January] but none occured and we moved to Rorke's Drift at daylight this morning, without interruption. Large bodies of the enemy were seen in the distance, which had been on the Natal side of the Buffalo River burning Kraals &c.&c".
(quoted in "Lord Chelmsford's Zululand Campaign 1878-1879" by Laband, p.77).

It seems that LC himself did not think that the Zulu band met in the Manzimyana valley was the same band who fought at Rorke’s Drift.
From this point of view, LC's comment is not in contradiction with Frank's thesis.
But there is a difference with Frank's thesis: For LC, the Zulus met in the Manzimyama valley were not the Zulus who attacked Bromhead and Chard but the the Zulus who attacked the farms on the Natal Side.

About the meeting with the Zulus in the Manzimyama valley, Norris-Newman wrote: “ (…) we saw in the distance on our left a returning Zulu impi, numbering many thousands. Judging from the numerous evidences of burning kraals bordering the Buffalo river itself, we concluded that this was a part of the victorious army which had set out from Isandwhlana, attacked the post of Rorke’s Drift, and were now on their way back to Ulundi, after the raiding the Border”.

For the reasons given by Frank in his study, it seems to me that the Zulu impi who fought at RD was not the same impi who burnt the farms.

But who was the Zulu Impi met by LC?
The Zulu Impi who fought at RD?
Or the Zulu impi who attacked the farms on the Natal side?

See the narrative told by the Zulu boy Muziwento (Munyu / uThulwana)... Wink

Cheers

Frédéric
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:11 am

Frederic
For your interest this is a list of sources and rough notes I have used.

Return of Natives killed or captured by the Zulus on or since 22 January BPP,C2367 ( Natal) Highlights the numbers of killed and captured to drive stolen cattle over the river.

Zibhebu/Gibson.
Statement on removing stolen cattle from Natal. Proof positive that Zibhebu did in fact cross the river.

George Smith ‘
Account by an eye witness’ Natal Mercury, 7 April 1879, splitting of the regiments.

Chard (WO32/7737) PRO. Commentary on the size of the enemy early in the morning.
"We were removing the thatch when a LARGE body of the enemy appeared on the hills to the SW." ( The fact that Chard specifically mentions a large body would tend to rule out the ‘straglers’ theory)
And
About 8 am the third column appeared in sight, the enemy who had been gradually advancing, falling back as they approached. ( Advancing to attack? )

The account prepared for Queen Victoria, Royal Archives:
Heading ( original document) Enemy re-appear
I thought at the time they were going to attack us. ( Chards conformation that there was a potential attack on the way)

Hook: mentions the men put on the roof to watch for attack and nervousness.

Letter from Chard to Queen Victoria 21st February 1880: repeats

Lord Chelmsfords letter 23rd Jan to BF. Bolsters two other comments of the same nature, There were a large body of Zulu in the second of the two groups. Confirms Chards comment.

Location of meeting between Zulu impi and Chelmsfords Column
Harford: journal ( Childs)
Symonds: Symonds Papers ( comments : ‘they looked like a 10 acre mealie field turned black’) Emphasises the size of the group they met.

Henry Fynn: States he recognized group as uThulwana

Maxwell Diary: mentions lone zulu charging

Exploration with Charles Aikenhead and Paul Garner.
George Swinny, Umsweanto.

Map of traditional route RD/iSandlwana. Ken Gillings

Im still convinced, Henry Fynn being the main reason, that the first meeting climbing out of the Manzimyama was with the uThulwana. That position is pretty well endorsed by other accounts, many of them. The sighting later in the morning, aprox 8 oclock, by the Zulus at RD, of the returning column led to the recrossing on the Mzinyathi and their retreat towards iSandlana via the traditionsl route. that route is visible from a distance as the old road crossed the last rise ( see the photos I published).
I will mark up a map later to show the various meeting points and sightings.

Cheers
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:41 am

Bonjour Frank,
Thank you very much for the quotes.
Really impressive.

Munyu was also a warrior of the uThulwana.
The warrior who attacked alone the men of LC (Maxwell / mad attack) is somewhere for me a problem.
If he was drunk he could only be a warrior who had attacked the farms during the night (Where did he find alcohol?) .

Cheers.

frédéric

I.E: I don't say you are wrong.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:43 am

Hi Frederic
There are probably a number of reasons why he would launch an attack, as you say the possibility of alcohol could not be ruled out. But if as I believe he was one of the uThulwana then he would not have access to a great deal of it, potential the odd beer or so ( wasn't Chard offered a beer that was 'recued'). But again he possibly had fought long and hard through the night getting no where, seeing his friends torn apart so frustration eventually boiled over to a mad anger. Maybe comments that were shouted across from the NNC goaded him into it? Or maybe he had just taken a smattering of drugs?
I wouldn't like to just dismiss it as a drunken foray, to many other possibilities.
There is of course the very great possibility that a party of 'raiders' had re joined the main attack body earlier and retreated with them. Don't forget that when Spalding attempted to re join his command he was confronted by a group large enough to adopt the traditional format, that caused him to retreat. So there were undoubtedly a number of elements prowling around.
Just down river from RD is a place called Elands Kraal, the current owners family has owned the place since before the war. They have a family story of on the 22nd the then owner walked out of his house to see a group of Zulu sitting and waiting. They had crossed the river but didn't know what they were supposed to do so sat and waited for instruction. The farmer calmly lit a fire and provided meat and mealies ( corn) and fed them after which the recrossed the river waving goodbye.
Brave farmer.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:41 am

Frank,
Effectively, you are right: Plenty of possibilities can explain the state of mind of the "mad" warrior when he attacked alone LC's men.
Cheers.
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:05 pm

Morning all

When Chard reports (at 8.00am) "the third column appeared in sight" he presumably means the defenders saw them at that time. Where would they have to be located to be able see them - the top of Shiyane?

On another point, I can understand the Zulus burning farms on the Natal side, but Kraals?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:43 pm

Hi Steve
The lookout on top of the wall would have got first sight, by a matter of minutes really. There were a lot of Kraals destroyed, revenge for them living in Natal. An area around 10 kilometres along the river was 'cleared'. A touch of Bosnia style ethnic cleansing.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:56 pm

So the column was already across the drift and almost at the compound before they became visible. They presumably had an easier and quicker crossing than when they went the other way and no ponts this time.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:24 pm

The last rise down to the Buffalo is around 2 Ks from RD, the first view would be at that distance.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:44 pm

Thanks Frank. This is why I assumed they had crossed the river before being seen. Doesn't look like anything north of the river would be visible from the buildings.

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Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:39 pm

From IK's Zulu Rising.. just about settles it for me, and re who could see what.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:12 am

I guess this boils down to perception.. events we think we know so well,
so in our minds eye we accept a view and it becomes entrenched!, some
of us know ( think we know ) that all the details of the defence are by now
pretty much nailed down, unless private letters or the like are discovered
in the future.. unlikely.. but never say never!. one of the enduring images
of the story for me was the time element!!, the men feverishly trying to erect
the barricade in time before the imminent Zulu onslaught, were they really
that pressed for time?. this from August Hammar...

I am with the Witts.
…British officers call today… they want the house and store and tell Rev Witt to
leave. We are very worried about events… we have put rocks round the outside
of the house. Mr Witt and I are the only people left, and he prepares to follow his
family tomorrow to safety. I will care after the property.
…many troops arrive over three days and Otto has left very angry at the damage
to his house. There is no more space for tents between the house and the river, it
is full of troops, artillery and horses…and much noise. There are troop tents next
to the Witt’s store and the troops cook next to the house… I get nothing from
them … Otto left me some food.
…I sleep outside under an oilcloth as troops have smashed the Witt house doors
for firewood and prepared the house and store if the Zulu attack… British troops
believe the Zulu will attack the river crossing soon… the house is now a British
hospital and will be busy if things go bad…no sign of the Zulu army but
everybody is ready.
…Otto Witt will return when his family are safe.
…I am well and I will write again soon.
This second letter, especially the comment about the house and store prepared for
attack, is particularly relevant and it ties in with Captain Charles Harford’s diary note of
the 11th January…
On the 11th January the 3rd Column crossed the Buffalo into Zululand, the troops
making their way over at different points. The Artillery and the 24th Regiment
went over by degrees in the pontoon, a little above the main drift, (a shallow
crossing point) known as Rorke’s Drift after the Dutchman Jim Rorke, whose
house and farm buildings were occupied by us as a Fort, after being
entrenched.(1)
Harford was an experienced officer who understood that the words ‘Fort’ and
‘entrenched’ would have only been used in the correct military context and, having been
present at Rorke’s Drift prior to the Zulu attack, is unlikely to have made a mistake. He
clearly observed some form of defensive measures sufficient to describe the result as a
‘fort’. Furthermore, the official Army Field Exercise Guide of 1870, still current in 1879,
specifically defines ‘entrench’ as follows;
‘to increase the power of defence of a position by the use of field-works,
defensible posts, or even shelter trenches’.
After watching events on the night of the 22 January, August Hammar then walked
back to Durban looking for the Witts, but never saw them again.

It was standard practice for the British to reinforce and entrench, something his lordship
neglected to do at Isandhlwana.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:58 am

Read by those who were following the thread and deleted....


Last edited by nthornton1979 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:27 pm

Hi Neil
Well put rebuttal. Doubters with one sided research do tend to shoot themselves in the foot.
Maybe I should at some point publish the good Doctors notes on why Addendorff wasn't at Rorkes Drift? Or maybe that could be just to embarrassing.


regards
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PostSubject: Appendix 4 , Neils Book    Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:29 pm

Hi Neil
I'm not surprised he hasn't answered ! . Shocked Shocked
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:28 pm

Hi Neil, i'm so glad you contributed with the above.. i am
currently a member of the AZWHS i have been on and off
for many years, Adrian has produced a lot of good work
over the years, that much must be acknowledged.. but i
make it a good rule of thumb never to get between any
authors who have apposing views.. i find it illuminating that
our very own IK has had a close relationship with Dr Greaves,
i personally find him very approachable and he has always
answered my enquires promptly with good humour and
patience.. but then i have never written a book regarding the
AZW. i have observed the fractiousness between various authors
stroke historians and researchers over many years, i know by
now who gets on with who, and who does not.. any thoughts on
Hammars letters. cheers Les.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:51 pm

Read by those who were following the thread and deleted....


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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:31 pm

Here is the Parry, unfortunately is does not provide context.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:55 pm

...


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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Bit of an odd reference to Duncan Francis Campbell Moody (which I take to mean Duncan Campbell Francis Moodie) who surely was not there but in Australia?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:19 pm

Hi Steve,

Yes, extremely random.

Neil.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:16 pm

Bonsoir,
Neil,
It's seems more cautious don't ask you questions by P.M. !!!
Cheers
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:23 pm

...


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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:41 pm

Neil.
Point taken. Now, I understand the reasons of your messages and it seems you are right about the good Dr (Rorke's Drift forum).
Kind regard
Frédéric
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