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 Appendix 4, Neils Book

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Taff price



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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:37 pm

However, just to throw another spanner in the works. Didn't they split into two groups, with one group attacking Rorkes Drift and the other raiding farm houses along the Buffalo river. Could the uThulwana have split into the first and second Impi?

Geraint
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:47 pm

I don't think you have offered anything that rules out Frank's hypothesis let alone a primary source. Laband reports that Chard was "fairly certain that the Zulus were in no state to attack again", that is as much speculation on Chard's part (he did not know there was a second impi in Natal) as Frank's "they were poised to attack" when referring to the hypothesised second impi. Greaves simply says "the Zulus had lost the will to fight" without any source reference. Neither is established fact.

Steve....

And that... was the POINT i was making!. if anybody cares to reflect on my posts you can plainly see i was not personally attacking anybody.. i had a concern.. i raised it!. end of. when i asked for clarification of any sources i was cited Knight and laband. the simple truth is that nobody
knows if there was a second impi, that somehow came along after Dab and his crew made off. if
there was indeed a second impi.. who were they, how many of them were there and what was their
intention's.. did they simply overlook the post.. see what had occurred and after spotting the return
of the remain's of the third column beat a leisurely retreat?. I don't think anybody can concur with
appendix four.. and that's because nobody know's.. and this is written without rancour and certainly
with out any axe to grind. i'm sorry i even raised the question!. but then i feel it would have been
wrong not to. after all that is what this place is for.. is'nt it?. xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:57 pm

I think we've got there, more or less. Like Neill, I think the hypothesis holds up to scrutiny. So apparently do quite a few others. Personally, I don't need any more than that at this point.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:14 pm

Taff
I have a sketch map that was produced by the late Ken Gillings showing what he believed was the original military road as opposed to the present road and also the traditional trail. I will post it tomorrow for you. I an actually going to be lecturing in Natal in July, who knows I may just take up your offer of a drink.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:42 pm

Frank
You made my day!
Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:56 am

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Taff
This is a sketch done by Ken.
The colors are rather faint but essentially the top color is the original military road, the centre is approximately the present road and the lower one the traditional route.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:26 am

Frank

That's excellent, it makes it so much easier with contour lines.
Where the two colours meet, would that have been where the column passed the uThulwana?

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:30 am

This modernish map shows the high ground around RD quite well. Shiyane to the East and (at a similar height of 1300 metres) the ground to the South West where the proposed second impi presumably appeared.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:45 am

Hi Taff
Very aproximatly where the yellow line hits up against the road. On the climb out of the valley towards the Bashe.
Steve
Tradition is that the small road shown going passed Elsinor was the horse trail up to Helpmakaar and the road that a 'Zulu' impi closed of to try and trap Spalding. I haven't tried to climb it myself but a couple of the locals use it to get up and down to save going round the Nostrop Pass.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:19 pm

This shows line of sight from the heights where the impi appeared SW of RD to the point were Ken Gillings yellow line hits the road. Looking at the intervening contours it seems to me that the Zulu on the heights had a long view south of Shiyane of Chelmsfords approach.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:24 pm

Interesting line Steve but I would say that for the Zulu to be visible from the 'fort' your orange pin should be up and across to just left of the cluster of buildings. I really must have a look at that line of sight on the next visit, could be revealing.
Ive got some photos from just in front of that line by the road.
I will dig them out.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:40 pm

Yes, I agree, I took a slightly higher point but I think the same conclusion applies. It would be very interesting to make the climb and see just how far the view is towards the Isandhlwana road. The red coats must have stood out like sore thumbs at quite a distance.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:26 pm

So from this position would the Impi have been able to see the uThulwana passing LC's Column or would this area still be just out of sight??
Captain Penn-Symonds, present with Lord Chelmsford’s column, recorded how the troops retiring from the battle field paused at the Manzimyama to refill their water bottles. They had marched only a little further when Symonds “perceived at short cannon range a large black mass of Zulus approaching directly towards us from our left front.”
Lt John Maxwell recorded that a lone warrior sprang from the Zulu mass rushing down the hillside towards the centre of the column and was shot dead at 30 yards.
How far is a little further?
How far is short cannon range?
They could have been close enough and out of the valley?

Geraint
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:13 pm

Frank is going to have to shin up there and take a look. From the map, I would say that the Zulus at RD could not see any of the Batshee, it is masked by Shiyane. But from south of that I think they can see pretty much to the Isandhlwana road through quite a narrow gap, which I think means beyond the Manzimyama. The scale of the map is about an inch to the mile in old money. I reckon a short cannon shot is a mile, how far "a little further" is who knows, less than a mile but guessing. Of course, the line of sight is not the line of march. Chelmsford would be confined to the road, the Zulus would not.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:29 pm

Thanks Steve


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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:26 am

Steve Taff
The Google cameras have covered the area pretty well. in Google Earth go to the RD road at the entrance into the sight and 'pull' the little orange figure onto the road, cruise the whole length of the road. There no view at all round the rear/East of the hill. Once your well clear of Shiyane heading towards Fugitives Drift then the ground opens up and you can see iSandlwana in the distance. So the only view would be across the Battlefield itself.
Had one of those illogical bits of insight last night: Hook says that they put a man on the roof of the storehouse with flags to warn them if the Zulus were coming, eventually of course he was waving the flag for the relief column. So if they needed height to see the Zulu, was the impi low down on the hill?
Just a thought.
22nd January 2017: 138 years later and we will talk about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:12 am

We know there were Zulus on Shiyane as well as to the south west, was the man on the roof looking that way because the buildings blocked the view?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:50 pm

This is a panorama made from Google Earth about 2 miles along the road south from RD.  Shiyane can be seen above the road on the left and in the far distance on the right Isandhlwana. The heights to the SW, where the Zulus appeared (not in picture), are at the same level as the top of Shiyane, so an even better view towards Isandhlwana.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:47 pm

Fun using Google Earth isn't it. On the extreme right is the Mzinyathi Valley so this virtually encompasses the line of advance from the river to RD.
He could have been looking either way Steve. The level of the mission is below the level of the Shiyane shoulder around which the original attack took place so there would exist the idea that as they had lookouts on the roof for the original battle start they thought it could be prudent to do the same. That would lead to the thought that they could have expectd any other attack to come from the same direction, and then born out by the impi appearing on the SW hill. Again that word appearing, if they came from the West, the bottom of Nostrop, they would have been visible for a long time, at least an hour so the 'appearance on the hill to the SW' could intimate they came from behind that Shiyane shoulder. Or better explained from the area you have published above.
I will dig out some photos tomorrow that may assist in viewpoints.
Have a look at the view from the top of Shiyane in Neils book, from that elevation the saddle at iSandlana is very visible but not the valley.
Cheers
PS the building blocking the view, didn't consider that I was thinking the hospital had burned down but the walls were still standing, good point.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:06 pm

Playing around with GE some more. This is the line of sight shown on the earlier map, followed by the ground view from the point where it crosses the RD road (again with Shiyane and Isandhlwana in view). PS. The distance along the sight line is 5.69 miles.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:12 am

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Steve for the time being this is as close as I can get. Its a shot taken across the plain with iSandlwana on the right and the Mzinyathi valley below. The Manzimyama is buried in the valley, there is a small view area as the road levels out towards the buffalo, towards Shiyane. I will post that one.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:28 am

This on the side of the Ncepheni hill foothills looking back at iSandlwana. More or less on your line of sight diagram. The ridge between here iSandlwana is the top of the Manzimyama valley that eventually becomes Mpethu, the hill the fugitives climbed.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:52 am

Clearer view of the location of the SW hill from the area in front of the 'store room.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:29 am

Thanks Frank. Your picture of RD gives a better feel for the height of the SW hill than you get from the road. You still need to shin up it next time your there!

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:07 pm

Thanks both

Excellent pictures, I'm going to use your photo's and have a play around with Google Earth myself.

Geraint
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:45 pm

Was the drift north or south of the current bridge at RD?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:34 pm

East, downstream, had the opportunity last visit to walk/wade across.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:46 pm

Thanks Frank. Sight lines to Isandhlwana and the drift, each visible either side of Shiyane.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:56 am

There you go Steve.
Crossing point mid picture by the small island bridge in the background mission station way up hill to left of shot. Point of interest is Fort Melvill top left on the hill.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:58 am

The actual crossing from midstream.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:00 am

And again getting feet wet in the name of research! It was a hot day so a dip was most welcome.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:06 am

Just a thought Steve. The 7 oclock Zulus didn't know the column was returning, why would they bother climbing the hill, its not an easy climb to do without reason? Could appreciate a few metres up to get a view into the camp area but not to the top?
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:34 am

Eventually found the shot I was looking for Steve. This taken from around half way up iSandlwana. The road on the right is the climb out of the valley of the Manzimyama. Middle shot is the bulk of Shiyane, behind Shiyane the hills that appear are the beginings of the Biggarsberg mountain. The KwaSingqindi hill is tucked behind Shiyane. I'm busy tracking back to see if I can find shots from higher up the hill. The difficulty there is the road from the top of the hill in the photo is not the original road, that one bent around towards kwa Sohexe and is the route the returning column would have taken. If as we are trying to ascertain the Zulus on the hill saw the column from a greater distance that would have been the area.
This area fits the general descriptions pretty well of the point the two columns met and as you can see quite well for foot traffic like the Zulu impi virtually a straight line to RD. The old trail comes to this point and its the area a returning impi would look at traversing to get back to there original stop over in the Ngwebini valley. If the impi did come over the rise to the left of the road it would look pretty much a short canon shot. To my mind this would be the meeting point.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:03 am

As the road curls around the hill to the right it then climbs up towards the Bashe crossing
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This the next series in the panorama from the same spot shows the ridge that hides Shiyane.
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And the third, the top of the Biggarsburg is just visible
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:22 am

Maybe something else to take into consideration, The Drift at 7.30 in the morning middle of January last year.
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PostSubject: Appendix 4 , Neils Book    Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:01 am

Hi Frank
Not sure on the importance of the mist in last years photo compared to 1879 , I cant remember reading a report , Zulu or British , that make mention of it being misty on the morning of the 23rd . Happy to be corrected .
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:14 am

Morning Gary
Just playing the fool.
But while we are about do you have any photos from kwa Sohexe looking back towards RD?

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PostSubject: Appendix 4 , Neils Book    Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:18 am

Joker Maybe , I know I have some from the general area , but I think it was looking back across the river . If I have any I'll email them to you .
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:26 am

The shot taken from half way up Isandhlwana is very useful. You can clearly see the hill to the SW of RD with the summit somewhat lower than the Biggersberg behind. The longer slope of Shiyane on that side affords a good view from the SW Hill to the point where the old road joins the current one and virtually all of the ground in between.

In his book Neil refers to Surgeon Reynolds, Otto Witt and George Smith climbing to Shiyane's summit and looking towards Isandhlwana. They heard faint sounds of artillery but also found their view obscured (by Isandhlwana mountain). Tellingly "they spotted four horseman riding in the direction of the mission station ...... one was clearly a British soldier and they were in a hurry" (page 32 Rorke's Drift, ref. Witt Irish Times).

Although Shiyane blocks a segment of the country from Zulus view from the SW Hill, the reference demonstrates that figures on horseback could be clearly seen at some distance. I think the Zulus on the SW hill could likewise see what was coming at 7.00am, and it is conceivable that even the impi that had attacked RD through the night might have seen Chelmsford's force at a distance once the sun had come up.

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:32 am

rusteze wrote:
,
(...) and it is conceivable that even the impi that had attacked RD through the night might have seen Chelmsford's force at a distance once the sun had come up.

Steve

Bonjour Steve,
If it's the case, why did they risk a confrontation with the LC's column?
All the testimonies indicate that they were too tired to fight (with the exception of a "crazy").
Cheers
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PostSubject: Appendix 4 , Neils Book    Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:59 am

Frank I sent you 3 or 4 pics , but I got a failure notice , best you contact me with your email address , I seem to have 5 email addresses for you ! .
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:15 pm

Frederic

It's a good question and I can only speculate. Chelmsford's force sees them at a distance coming out of the Batshee valley (a short cannon shot) - perhaps they thought they could slip past without being seen. I suppose they might have crossed the Buffalo further to the east to avoid Chelmsford altogether - would they have earlier seen the pursuit of the fugitives returning from Isandhlwana I wonder?

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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:32 pm

Have you got in mind the story about the column of British "ghosts"  Question Question
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:36 pm

I suppose it depends how difficult the drifts were at the time. Fugitives was plainly difficult, so they probably would not have chosen it. They had crossed upstream from RD the day before so perhaps they went that way again - crossing the Batshee would seem to indicate that as most likely. Frank seems to think they would head back towards Ngwebeni rather than cross the saddle and the battlefield which also makes sense.

Who is the French soldier with the tattoos?

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:03 pm

It's an unknown Legionnaire (photograph taken in 1908). I think I found the photograph which shows him from the front.
I am doing some research about the Foreign Legion for the study of the disaster of Cox Ha (Indochine 1950 / Annihilation of the 1er Bataillon Etranger de Parachutistes).
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:40 pm

Thanks Gary got them on the Frankadesign address. Suprisingly there is one that shows RD. But its the one from the skirmish area I think, and that would be much higher than the road, at least I assume so. I will post it.
Thanks Mate.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:02 pm

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Courtesy of 90th, view from the Batshe valley looking to Natal Shiyane on the left.
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PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:24 pm

All this reminds me of an old London music hall song.

Wiv a ladder and some glasses,

You could see the 'ackney marshes,

If it wasn't for the 'ouses in between.

Steve
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PostSubject: Appendix 4 , Neils Book    Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:21 pm

Hi Frank
No Worries , from Memory the photo you posted , which I sent to you was taken from the road looking to RD & Shiyane .
90th Salute
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Frank Allewell

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Posts : 6274
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: Appendix 4, Neils Book   Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:37 am

Thanks Gary, the perfect shot. Im going 'climbing' in that area in July.

Steve
Coming back to the main point really that there are no significant views of the road from the RD area any where up to this point. Later today I will post photos from the point the column brested the hill and came into view. The smoke from RD was visible on the reverse side.

Cheers
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