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Zulu Dawn Lt Col Pulleine Lord Chelmsford assures us that there is no way the Zulu can get around us without our knowing. Col Durnford Zulu generals have a nasty habit of doing the unexpected It might be wise to picket the hills
 
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 Composite coy of 2/24th theory

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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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Composite coy of 2/24th theory Empty
PostSubject: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyFri Nov 17, 2017 1:00 pm

Hi everyone a theory i've come up with no idea if its a good one Suspect

Jackson states that a composite coy of 2/24th was formed out of the men left behind in the camp and most likely
commanded by Lt's Dyer and Griffith and that it would have been posted to the right of Wardell and fallen back with H coy and that this explains why Dyer a 2/24th officer was found in the H Coy square.
Is it not possible though that command was given to Captain Degacher given he was a senior officer with more experience then the young Dyer and Griffith and A company was in good hands with Lt. Porteous.

I came up with this as Black states he found at the H company square Wardell, Dyer and
"a captain and a subaltern not recognisable."

I don't see how Mostyn could get to H Coy given he was on the left so that really does just leave Degacher as the only other Captain of the 24th who could have fell with H Coy.

Any thoughts would be appreciated  Salute  

Cheers
Sam
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ymob

ymob

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Composite coy of 2/24th theory Empty
PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyFri Nov 17, 2017 3:49 pm

Bonjour Sam,
What do you search to establish?
-William Degacher was killed near Dyer and Wardell?
or
- He was killed in the same area of Wardell and Dyer because he took command of the "Composite Coy"?
It's not quite the same question
Cheers.
Frédéric
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyFri Nov 17, 2017 4:34 pm

Hi Sam
I understand where your heading but a point to remember is the general confusion and separation that had to have occurred within the companies as they retreated from a fairly wide defence line to an ever diminishing position. Companies would have joined together, separated and eventualled been driven in on each other. Elements breaking of as they saw a gap and possibly joining with other breakaways. An amorphous mass really, anything could have happened, and probably did.
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1987
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PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyFri Nov 17, 2017 6:10 pm

Hi Frederic

Well i basically thought Degacher must be the captain identified with Wardell and Dyer given Younghusband was found elsewhere and Mostyn was on the left.
Therefor i theorised he may have ended up with Wardell as he was in charge of the composite company of 2/24th men as he had more experience then Dyer and Griffith who were both young and he may have not rejoined A company yet meaning he was free to do this. When the composite company fell back they did so with H company and that is how both Dyer a 2/24th officer and Degacher could have ended up with H company men.

I came up with it procrastinating in my lecture and thought i'd see what others thought Very Happy
As Frank says we will never know for sure if that is how he ended up there if it was him but still fun all the same.  

Cheers
Sam
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyFri Nov 17, 2017 6:16 pm

Hell Sam don't stop thinking, its what makes this forum interesting, different thoughts different ideas. Its entertaining.
Regards
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptySat Nov 18, 2017 3:00 pm

Cheers Frank i'll agree with that Very Happy

Sam
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WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior

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Location : Los Angeles, CA

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PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyFri Sep 27, 2019 5:58 pm

A bit late, but Colonel Degacher supposedly did discover the body of his brother where the GOC's column bivouacked; on the Nek. For whatever little what's worth.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyTue Oct 01, 2019 10:35 am

Drummer Boy
Degacher became acting Major, Pulleine's Field Officer, the moment Pulleine became camp commander and would have left his coy. Porteous then took command of A coy.
These would have been standing orders.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

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Composite coy of 2/24th theory Empty
PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyTue Oct 01, 2019 5:01 pm

Hi,

Would Durnford taking command of the camp, when he rode in, have an affect on Degachers detachment or would the reported comment (my words but something like) "I'm not staying long & don't intend to interfere" made a difference?

Are there any survivors accounts of seeing Degacher anywhere during the battle? You would think he would be with or near HBP but is not mentioned (AFAIK) in the breakfast account or squabble between AWD and HBP over supporting the NNMC?

Could he be classed as Pulleine's 2IC before the arrival of AWD and possibly after his departure?

Ta

Simon
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyTue Oct 01, 2019 5:57 pm

SRB
Yes, he was Pulleine's 2iC before and after Durnford's departure. Since he was field officer, he would not necessarily have "been near HBP" but engaged in his duties 'in the field' during the battle.
As a 1st bn officer he would certainly not have been given temporary command over a 2nd bn company (even a composite one).
As well as being a lieut, Dyer was also adjutant of the 2nd bn and perfectly capable of taking a company command in action.
Not only that, he had a wonderful middle name!
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SRB1965

SRB1965

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Composite coy of 2/24th theory Empty
PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyTue Oct 01, 2019 6:58 pm

Without darting for my books or Google, I don't recall Dyers middle name....however I can take a wild guess at it and that it was not 'Simon'......

I suppose he would not have been given command of the G Coy but he might have taken command of it.....who would have thought that a 'tradesman' would command at Rorke's Drift and another at Isandlwana.......
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1879graves

1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyTue Oct 01, 2019 7:17 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:

Not only that, he had a wonderful middle name!

Julian

agree
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyTue Oct 01, 2019 8:05 pm

SRB
The field officer would not have taken command of any single unit when his responsibility was for the whole line.
Graves
Who's a clever boy then!
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SRB1965

SRB1965

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Composite coy of 2/24th theory Empty
PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyTue Oct 01, 2019 9:14 pm

Hi

With all due respect to your knowledge.....in desperate situations, unusual things happen.......you cannot say for definite.....yes Queens Regs/SOs may say different.....but the annals of British military history throw up many situations that are not the 'done thing'.....

I realise the burden of proof is on the person arguing against the norm....but it can not be definitely said he would not take command of (or been with) a unit.....I personally feel that as an experienced officer, he could have placed himself where he felt would have been most useful - even if that was with an enlarged company in danger of being outflanked and isolated...as G Coy was.

Cheers

Simon
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Composite coy of 2/24th theory   Composite coy of 2/24th theory EmptyWed Oct 02, 2019 9:39 am

Simon
No-one can say anything for definite. Certainly, when the composite coy was formed the situation was not desperate (Essex "The men were laughing and chatting in the ranks..."), and the company had an experienced officer and junior subaltern available to command it - Dyer & Griffith (more than A coy had), so why on earth would Pulleine have placed Degacher with it? Why not with A coy getting by with one officer?
Degacher would/could not have placed himself anywhere. Only Pulleine (or Durnford) as superior officer could have done that.
The available evidence is that it was not an enlarged coy (i.e. G coy + composite coy). The only eye-witness reported seeing separate coys and counted them as such.
As you say, the burden of proof rests with the proponent of the new idea but I can't find anything concrete to support DB's suggestion.
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