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Lieutenant J.P. Daly, 1/24 Regt.-KIA Isandlwana
[Mac & Shad] Isandula Collection)
The Battle of Isandlwana tactics
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 Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:46 pm

Steve
I would have to ask the question; Why would the Bishop want to bring an Iron Cross to mark the grave of an English Soldier he didn't know?
From JY
"On the spot at Isandhlwana where he fell, which was first marked by a sergeant of the 2-24th Regiment with a meat-scale, an iron cross, conveyed there by the Bishop of Pietermaritzburg, is about to be erected to his memory." Courtesy of Mac and Shad, but I cant locate any corroboration that would prove that Pope was actually buried there. On the other hand Canon Johnson is a prime source that witnessed the full event, from the original suggestion by Hlubi to the acceptance by the Bishop to the actuality of the event. So theres the Match of the Day: Johnson v Mac and Shad.

Would there be a half truth involved in that The Bishop decided that Popes Grave would make a good site for a Church?

Sime
I would concede the implications of 'Counting Coup', but the key issue of my post was to deny, to a degree, the concept of the Living being mutilated that seems to be the challenge from Julian. Even the 'Poor little Drummer Boys,' is really a non starter. The youngest was close to 17 and in the world of the Zulu that was a grown fighting man. I'm hoping against hope that he and Fred will offer more proof that occurred rather than the 'Chinese whispers'.
in the meantime I'm signing of as:

The Revisionist
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:53 pm

Bonjour Frank,
In the world of the Zulus, even a child was an enemy to kill.
Amitié.
Fred
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:41 pm

Hmmm... my copy rocked up this morning, iv'e already read the first
and second piece.. a few month's back i thought i had found an early
copy of england's sons... but the seller could not find it and returned
money to my account. last night while i was looking for something
different, up pops a copy of england's sons, it is a third edition dated
april 2004.. i should really get my s..t together and catalogue some
of this stuff.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:06 pm

I suppose that if Colenso was planning a new church then the colonial cemetery would be a logical place for it (given that the colonials would end up paying for it). So perhaps, as you say, there is a half truth in both stories. In reality though the congregation would of necessity been Zulu and it would have been a tad insensitive to place it in a location surrounded solely with graves of the "vanquished". Perhaps that's why it didn't happen.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:08 pm

Frederic
I would fully agree.
Steve
I would think that after spending a little 'winter' time at that site common sense would prevail. The wind and rain whips right down that slope, its a bloody awful area that would be totally ignored by all and sundry if it wasn't for the obvious. Water would be available at the bottom of the slope in the donga but nothing of any comfort, baring in mind it was also going to be a residence. The area they eventually built the 'parsonage' and ultimately St Vincents is in the hollow of the ridge, protected and secure. Johnson used the iron ferrels of the tent poles to channel water to his rude home. And of course St Augustines was built not to far away.
That ignores of course the outcry that would have followed from the landed gentry, fathers mothers and family of those buried there.
But still the logical argument still prevails, why pick out Pope to be honored by the Bishop? If Godwin Austin was killed in the same place logic would say why wasn't he included in the ritual?
One stray piece of information and history adopts it as fact.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:38 pm

Steve,

John William Colenso was the Bishop of Natal, I believe at the time that the Bishop of Pietermaritzburg was William Kenneth Macrorie.

JY
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:56 pm

Thanks John. Hadn't quite twigged that once Colenso had been declared a heretic they appointed Macrorie to Pietermaritzberg even though Colenso retained the title of Bishop of Natal. The machinations of the Anglican Church!

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:10 pm

Steve,

What is even more interesting the present incumbent of Lambeth Palace is a Colenso relative.

JY
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:16 pm

SRB
The problem is that some people still deny even post-mortem mutilations.
Rusteze
Our point exactly.
Xhosa
Why would you want an old edition of England's Sons when the latest gives so much more information?
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:36 pm

Trying to get Julian’s sales pitch back on the original query.

Here is an engraving from 1883 published in Pictorial World that shows the area from different angle.

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An engraving based on Walton’s sketch.

Here’s one for Frank taken from Soldiers of the Cross in Zululand:

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JY



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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:47 pm

very nice John, taken from St Vincents
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:49 pm

Bit of artistic license with Table Mountain and Lions head in the background.
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:10 pm

Xhosa
Why would you want an old edition of England's Sons when the latest gives so much more information?
.....

Julian you have asked me this before.. i am not trying to catch you out or anything of the
sort, i collect 1st edition's it's that simple. it's nice to have it. xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:18 pm

Oh yeah, by the way Julian, how many revision's of England's Son's are there?, you
surely have some stashed away.. you could make up a bundle and sell them to me!,
at the going rate of course.. just off to watch City.. that's football mate. cheers xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:53 pm

Interesting about Welby, according to W'paedia he connects on his mother's side. Wonder what the Archbishop thinks of his forbears heresy - my guess is he would be on Colenso's side.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:10 am

Hi,

I have finally got a copy of my essays through the letter box, had a skim through last night after work and no doubt, it will provoke a salvo of posts wittering on about the rocket detachment.

The Colenso posts had me heading for Wiki......the Bish seems quite a character.

Frank: I am not sure if I am conservative, revisionist or neo revisionist with conservative traits

If you think, in (for example British) history there is a tendency to try and 'barbarise' our enemies - the Well at Cawnpore, Crucified Canadian, Huns with babies on Bayonets etc

The Americans accepted and almost 'celebrated' the American Indians rituals (lots of horrible photos of dead people) probably to try and keep 'anti native' fever going (there was, at the time, quite a large influential pro Indian movement) but chose to 'ignore' similar actions from their own army.

Who would have thought that a question about the Iron Cross would have wandered and meandered so......I spose that's one thing I like about the forum.

Cheers

Simon

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:30 am

Xhosa
Sorry, nothing stashed away.  Apologies if I've asked you before.  I forgot.
SRB
I think your sentence re 'barbarising' enemies would benefit from the removal of 'try and' - I don't think historians had to 'try' to overestimate the atrociousness of Cawnpore, it managed perfectly Well by itself (pun intended).  But there is also a tendency to try to 'civilize' our enemies, isn't there?  The whole idea of the 'noble savage', 'Here's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy', 'Gunga Din', etc., etc.
John
Apologies, no intention to distract from an excellent thread.  Note that I didn't start it...not my fault, guv!


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:07 pm

Hi Julian,

As I have mentioned in an earlier post, I would be surprised if no post mortem mutilations took place and equally surprised if no torture of any living captive occurred but whilst I believe that the former was a very common practice, I 'feel' that the later was the exception rather than the rule - mainly because in the frenzy of battle not there was not 'capture' ethos.

Apparently, one of the leaders (indunas) of the Natal Natives was given over to the udibi boys to use as target practice - I have read that finishing off the wounded & 'camp followers' was a 'perk of the job' for the udibi

Whilst the Well at Cawnpore is well know and undisputable, I have read that up to the Second World War it was (or at least the monument) still a 'tourist' attraction for British soldiers serving in India - I was referring in particular to the 'writing' (in blood of course) of something along the lines of "Englishmen avenge your women" (I can't remember the exact quote) and the bloody childs hand print near a meat hook.

Its been along time (many decades) since I read anything about the Sepoy Revolt but I think this graffiti (for want of a better word) was made up - to fire up the British reinforcements arriving in india.

Cheers

Simon
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:53 pm

SRB
I agree re your dead and the living comments but I'm not quite sure where you've got the uDibi target practice and perks stories from. You'll need to authenticate those methinks.
However, I think you will find that the Cawnpore hook and handprints description is both genuine and well-documented.  E.g. see W. Forbes-Mitchell, Reminiscences of the Great Mutiny 1893 p 25 among others.  There was much scrawled writing on the Bibigarh wall made by soldiers later on, not all pretending to have been written by the ladies, but certainly all intending to incite their visiting comrades.  There were some inscriptions on the walls - dates, events and names - but none of the 'revenge' ilk - and many on scraps of paper soaked in blood.  Those on the walls were ALL wiped away in the subsequent sweepings and clean-up.
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:26 pm

Hi

I will have to scurry up the loft to check my books - as to who was (supposedly) killed by the Udibi boys - by what I recall it was some large Induna, whose father was chief (but was too old to take the field) and stayed at home.

The Induna in the camp was given a white shirt to wear by a British officer.

Cheers

Simon





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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:44 pm

Thanks Julian.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:55 pm

SRB
Actually, that rings a bell. Sounds like a James Stuart Archive entry.
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:44 am

A variation on a theme, a large cairn photographed in late 1879 by the Kisch Brothers Studio.

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(John Young Collection.)

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:53 am

John that's the cairn on the side/end of the parking lot.
The brilliance of both the old photos you have put up, plus one I was sent during the week is the positioning of the old road as opposed to the new track. that's significant because it positions the 1/24th camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:30 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
SRB
Actually, that rings a bell.  Sounds like a James Stuart Archive entry.



Hi Julian

Until real life allows me to get up to loft, I found this on the internet (not a primary source admittedly but taster)

"Perhaps the last to die was Gabangaye, the portly chief of the amaChunu Natal Native Contingent, who was given over to be killed by the udibi boys. The captured Natal Native Contingent soldiers were regarded as traitors by the Zulu and executed"

and now I have his name, thus was posted on the forum some years ago:-

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I have this book somewhere up there, so it could have been this one.

cheers

Simon
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:34 am

SRB
Ah yes, dear old Umsweanto. That was the source, of course. Thanks for the reminder.
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:18 pm

Hi,

This would be the book I read it in (Lock & Quantrills 'Zulu Victory')

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Just out of interest, was/is 'Umsweatno' a reliable source

Thanks

Simon
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:40 pm

Swinney's book has the full Umsweanto account. Published early and includes the famous 'Dead was the...' poem, it has all the hallmarks of a contemporary, genuine account.
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:20 pm

you can read the full article here...

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Interestingly enough there is a passage in the Umsweanto's account were he says:-

We were told also that there was a soldier at lsandhlwana who carried a flag. He just waved it backwards and forwards. He fought not; he feared not (perhaps he put his trust in other soldiers).

Making the assumption that this is correct, would (or could) this have been the Regimental Colour (being as the Queens Colour was cased with Melville).....and that this was used in a rallying square, as portrayed by Fripp?

Cheers

Simon
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:33 pm

Simon,

The Regimental Colour of the 1st/24th was with ‘G’ Company, 1st/24th at Helpmekaar.

Both Colours of the 2nd/24th were present at iSandlwana, where they were lost. All that was ever recovered were a colour-pike, a crown and a colour case.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:26 pm

Regarding the mutilations at iSandlwana. There are some drawings which appear to show men staked out on the ground 'spreadeagled', and other bodies showing what look like spears in them. I have posted on this before a couple of years ago, and did get some interesting replies, so I thought it might jog a few memories to mention it again. The drawings may have been done by Crealock, although I am not sure, but I think that Crealock did them, and they appear in a couple of books that I have. Some of the drawings did get published back then, however, many of the naked bodies were shown in some publications wearing trousers. In the film 'Zulu Dawn', there is a part near the end that shows LC riding back into the camp, during the sequence it shows a British soldier tied by his wrists to a stake (or similar), stuck in the ground, was this based on fact, or was it a bit of licence? There is no doubt in my mind that atrocities and dreadful mutilations were done at iSandlwana, and I don't accept the notion or theory that all the victims were dead when these atrocities and mutilations were committed, for instance, what would be the point of staking out 'spreadeagling', a dead body? Doing this to a dead body seems rather pointless, when the whole point of staking out 'spreadeagling' is to terrify and torture the victims, therefor the 'post mortem' mutilations theory doesn't wash with me.

Hope you all had a good Christmas, and a very Happy New Year to you all.

Oh! and by the way, don't rub it in about the Cricket.
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PostSubject: photo of the 'Iron ' Grave marker    Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:01 am

Hi Me Old Mate
Yes 4 nil has a ring to it !!! . I tend to agree with your thoughts and yes I know the scene in ZD . I actually watched a fan edit of the last 50 mins last night ! . Which books are they in Martin ? , hopefully I have them . I also hope you had a wonderful Xmas and have an excellent reading 2018 ! . I did pick up a couple of books on the Titanic , dont know when I'll get around to reading them , there is a big pile to get through.
90th ( wombat )
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:27 am

Martin
Your probably thinking of the sketch by Trooper Nelson from the NMP.
Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:14 pm

Hi Gary me old wombat, hope you are well.

Well, I know that there is a portion of the sketch in 'Zulu Rising', and that there are also some larger versions in other books, however, I have that many I just can't be sure which books they are without trawling through them.

Titanic books eh! mate, I hope that you have got hold of some of the better ones, which ones have you got buddy?

Well, Christmas and the New Year are now very quiet, but I did get an invite to a great meal and booze up down at the local club. There was a few of us there, some I only see once or twice a year, so it is always grand meeting up again with the old gang. Great meal and the booze went down great, and I never had a very big hangover afterwards, well, at least not like my mate who took two days to get over it. LOL!

Cheers Gary.
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:19 pm

Hi Springy, and I hope that you also are keeping well.

The sketch that appears in 'Zulu Rising' is only a portion of the larger sketch that I have seen, but it does show what I am talking about, ie; men spreadeagled on the ground. It doesn't say who sketched it, so you might well be right about it being Trooper Nelson (I wonder what made me think it was Crealock?).

All the best Frank mate.
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:04 pm

Martin its also in the 'Big Silver Book". It was Nelson from the NMP. Very evocative.
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:13 pm

Thanks Frank, you know mate, I have that book, if I remember correctly, I think it was one of the first books I bought about the Zulu War, in fact I have just posted about it on the 'first book' thread.

Thanks mate.
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PostSubject: photo of the 'Iron ' Grave marker    Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:34 am

Hi Martin
Glad all is going well with you mate , luckily you didnt get a bad hangover , I can still put the grog away but it's the recovery period that used to be a couple of hours can morph into a day or so nowadays , so I dont bother ! . Unless there is an Ashes series to be won , 4 nil , 4 nil sorry mate . I do have one or two books on the Titanic I bought years ago but the latest two are ' Sinking Of the Titanic ; Eyewitness Accounts ' by Jay Henry Mowbray , and ' Titanic Voices 63 Survivors Tell their Stories ' by Hannah Holman . All the best me old china plate
Wombat !
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PostSubject: Re: Photo of the 'iron' grave marker?   Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:24 pm

Hi Gary. Yes, some of the eyewitness accounts can be very telling, and some can be very revealing, whilst some others can be put down as just going with the flow. It is very surprising how many witnesses (officers, crew, and passengers), reported seeing a ships lights coming towards them, then turning and sailing away. Of course, this was supposed to have been the SS Californian (according to the COE), however, the SS Californian was stopped in ice, so how can a stopped ship sail towards the RMS Titanic, turn, and sail away? Captain Lord of the SS Californian stopped his ship when the pack ice began getting thicker, he had warned Titanic before about seeing large icebergs, and also tried to warn them when he was stopped in the ice, he would have also given them his position, however, the Marconi operator on the Titanic told them to 'shut up' and 'keep out'. At the COE, Lord got made the scapegoat, and had to live with that hanging over him for the rest of his life, and the trash that has been written about him and the SS Californian is just a load of rubbish. Someone had to get the blame, and of course they couldn't blame the commodore of the Whit Star Line and Captain of the RMS Titanic E.J. Smith could they, so poor old Lord was the victim. Just like poor old Durnford, he got the blame for something that was somebody elses responsibility.

Best regards me old Wombat.
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PostSubject: photo of the 'Iron ' Grave marker    Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:08 pm

Hi Martin
Yes ....it smacks of the Durnford scenario , I was going to mention so until I saw you placed it nicely mate .
Cheers MOCP
Wombat ! LOLLLLL
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