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Major-General Sir William Penn Symons
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 The Wrecked Camp

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rusteze

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PostSubject: The Wrecked Camp   Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:31 pm

I am starting this again in a new thread because it simply confuses the "Iron Cross" discussion.

rusteze wrote:
Hi Fred

The reference in "The Wrecked Camp" is footnote number 135. "Major General Sir Alexander Tulloch who visited Isandhlwana in 1885 published his recollections in several newspapers e.g. the Brecon Radnor Express 27 July 1916". He talks about Pope being buried near Trpr. Blaikie, Natal Carbineers and QM Hitchcock, Newcastle Mounted Rifles.

Incidentally, this essay by you and Julian in SZW IV is an absolute tour de force. I am in total admiration for the number of references you have brought together and the accompanying 156 footnotes is simply mind boggling. You each deserve a medal!

Steve Reinstadtler

That is what took us down another path (for which apologies), others may wish to add their subsequent contributions.

Steve
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:03 pm

Steve,

You sparked me into action to look for further information on Major-General Tulloch, and I found his 1903 book Recollections of Forty Years’ Service, a copy of which is available on the following link:
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There is an interesting piece hidden amongst its pages told by a Zulu called “Big Beard” which some members of the forum may be familiar with.

JY
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:13 pm

Well found John, I read of BigBeard many many years ago and quite honestly forgot all about him.
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:28 pm

Intriguing, I don't remember to have read something about Bigbeard elsewhere.
Çheers
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barry

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PostSubject: The last stand   Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:29 am

Hi  All,



...."taken refuge in a crevice in the rocks", unquote...... is that that not  a description of  the really heroic last stand in the "'cave" on Isandlwana. As a by-the- by, the name big beard would have been translated from entshebi enkulu, in Zulu.  
It  may be possible to identify who this very brave  British soldier was, from prior photos, ages etc.
If  more facts could be put together it would make the basis of another very useful and interesting essay by Julian and Frederic.
It was  exactly this sort of action that was very deserving of high commendation and awards, rather than some of those that were "concocted" hastily to suit the various political agendas.
                         .



regards





barry


Last edited by barry on Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:35 am

Bonjour Barry,
Thank you very much for your confidence but in my humble opinion I don't think that the brave soldier can be identified.
According to the works of historians, this man belonged (maybe) to Capt. Younghusband's Coy.
There is no surviving roll of this Coy .
From memory, even the location of the crevace is not sure.
There is a probable link with Mainwaring's narrative ( the rope around the neck), written in 1895, told by SRB on the thread Iron Cross.
This testimony is in the archives of the Brecon Muséum (Frank has posted in the past an extract of it on thé forum) and has been published in the Noble 24th by Holme.
Cheers
Frédéric
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barry

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PostSubject: The cave   Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:33 am

Bonjour Frederic,

Thanks for your reply.
I disagree, the location of "the cave" is very well known and lies on the eastern facing buttress of the mountain,   right where the grassed slopes first meet the vertical rock faces. This is where pieces of red tunic were found in the past along with many spent MH cartridges cases as well as a length of rope, I think.   Sleuthing through the war records to pin the facts of the incident down would provide quite a challenge for anyone so inclined ,  ...... Frederic, we have great faith in your work.   You need to study mo

regards

barry

PS; the place is in reality hardly a cave, more of a small fissure perhaps
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:21 am

Barry,
Thank you very much for the correction about the location of the "cave" and for your encouragements.
The bits of "red clothes" and the "many spent cartridges cases" are described, in particular, by Mainwaring.
Cheers.
Frédéric
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90th

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PostSubject: The wrecked camp    Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:04 am

Hi All
I'll send some pics to Les of the cave , no-one is 100 % certain which is '' the '' cave , there are several in that immediate area , this one being the larger and easiest to get to , and the only one that photographs well ! .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:37 am

Gary is that the photo of you doing your Victorian Drama scene? Very Happy
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PostSubject: The Wrecked Camp   Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:46 am

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Frank , yes that's right ... melodrama ! , I forgot about that one , I sent 6 or so to Les to post , not the one I won the Oscar for ! . Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
90th
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:39 am

C'mon Gary ya gotta post that one
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:35 pm

I remember that Frank wrote a very interesting essay about Younghusband's "retreat" the 22 January, with many photographies (including the famous - possible cave) posted on the forum.
Cheers
Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:09 pm

The cave is a myth! Never happened.
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:23 pm

CTSG,

Are you doubting the testimony of “Big Beard” of the Nongqai?

Myth busted...

JY
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PostSubject: The wrecked camp    Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:48 pm

Cheers Les Salute Salute

Frank
I dont think so HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
90th Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:01 pm

[quote="John Young"]CTSG,

Are you doubting the testimony of “Big Beard” of the Nongqai?

Myth busted...



Last edited by Chelmsfordthescapegoat on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:48 pm

CTSG,

If only I could understand your response, I might have some witty riposte.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:36 am

agree there you go. Sorted.


Last edited by Chelmsfordthescapegoat on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:02 am

Mystified.
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PostSubject: Location of cave mouth   Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:05 pm

Hi Gary/ Frank

Being recent visitors to  Isandlwana, please look at Google Earth and see if you agree that the following lat/long marks, to your knowledge, the mouth of  "the "  last survivor cave. - 28deg 21' 10.62"S  /  30deg 39' 05.31"E


regards

barry
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:17 pm

Hi
Big Beard & friends are recorded in England's Sons Section T16 for those who want the page ref.
Re the cave, as far as I'm aware no-one recorded for certain exactly which cave or crevice Mainwaring/Big Beard referred to. There is the one that's big enough for a man to get into (and therefore the likely candidate) but after all it can't be substantiated beyond doubt...any port in a storm, surely, for the poor devil that was in that situation?
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:25 pm

Evening Barry, whats the chance of you sending some water down to the Cape?
Yep I would pretty much agree that is the position of the photos Gary posted. While we do know that Mainwaring found the artifacts I'm not to sure if he specified exactly where, so Id be really reluctant to put my head on a block.
Some time back I was with a very learned guide, now no longer with us, who had a totally different idea of the location. His opinion was that there were a number of men didn't run down with Younghusband, instead they ran up hill. Hence the topmost cairn, a long way behind the stand area. And also there is another 'cave' very close to that area.
So I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.

Cheers
PS don't forget about the water, hell I need a shower. Very Happy Very Happy
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:35 pm

Julian,
Thank you for the référence about Bigbeard, I shall take a look.
Amitié
Fred
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90th

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PostSubject: The wrecked camp    Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:30 pm

Hi Frank
Which Cairn are you referring to as the 'Topmost ' Cairn ? . The only large one of any size is the Younghusband Cairn , which is 80 or so mtrs down the slope from the Cave that I showed . There are from memory 8 or so Cairns basically in a straight line , along that scree slope . I was looking for something else yesterday and came across ( didnt write it down ) that some Soldiers were indeed thrown from the top of Isandlwana , I think it was Norris - Newman ? . I'm not sure the Younghusband charge was as grand as is made out to be honest , I'm sure some went up , and around , as there are some cairns about the same height as you go around the hill to the western slope , I've noticed 4 or 5 from memory ? , difficult to photograph if there is to much growth .

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PostSubject: The wrecked camp    Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:33 pm

Hi Barry
Hope you're well mate ? , Google Earth , Lat & Long marks , sorry mate , I have no idea , Frank is your only hope .
90th Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:27 am

Morning Gary
Just watching the Tea time highlights, Khawaga is on fire.
The Lat and Long Barry has put up is your cave.
The highest cairn is to the West of the Younghusbnd cairn, up on the ridge dropping down towards Shepstone. Just to the right is a cave I posted some time back. That was Kens cave.
I'm afraid I'm like you these days, technically deficient in posting photos but it was posted some where on the forum.
I'm off to Newlands in a couple of hours, great day yesterday against India.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:36 am

The was a whole discussion about the various caves with photos, ex photobucket, that have now gone.
Ymob asked Ian Knights opinion in a series of on line questions.
His take

"This incident is based on a Zulu account, so I think it probably did happen - but not quite as R.T. Moynan’s painting represents it! Moynan of course has the soldier standing upright in the cave entrance, falling forward as he is hit, his hand raised almost in a gesture of blessing, the Zulus at his feet looking on with awe, rather like the Roman soldiers before the crucified Christ! It’s a painting full of Victorian symbolism and assumptions about the ‘White Man’s Burden’ and the sacrifices necessary for a civilising mission. In fact, if it happened at all, I think it was much more unpleasant than the painting suggests. Although the entrance to the cave is fairly open, not unlike the painting, there is a much lower chamber at the back which extends a few more feet back into the mountain. It would just about be possible to crawl into that, and from there fire point-blank at any Zulus who put their head round the entrance to the cave. It would have been cramped, claustrophobic, smelly, and every shot would have been deafening and filled the cave with smoke. But - it would have been very difficult for the Zulus to get at him, which makes sense of the story that they couldn’t kill him until they got together and fired a volley into the cave - that would have entailed creeping up to the fallen boulders at the entrance, then firing into the smaller chamber at the back. The soldier probably hoped that he could have hidden there, and was unlucky to have been discovered in the first place - and it’s altogether a much bleaker and less heroic story than the painting conveys. Of course, although it is supposed to have taken place in one particular cave, at the foot of the cliffs behind the ‘Younghusband cairn’, there are other caves, and we don’t know for sure exactly where it happened. Nor have we any way of knowing whether this was the last survivor, or whether there were others whose stories were simply not recorded. "

Source: Questions submited to Ian Knight from forum members: / Source 1879 AZW forum
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90th

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PostSubject: The wrecked camp    Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:39 am

Hi Frank
Yes there are some cairns cairns scattered along that slope , as I mentioned there are 4 or 5 but quite possibly more , leading to the western side of Isandlwana , havent got to them due to the overgrowth on that slope . Will give it a try when their next . I May have photographed them from the plain , if so , I'll send them to Les , he'll certainly post them for us . I didnt realise you were playing India , we are in Sth Africa after the Ashes series , should be very interesting , especially if Warner & Smith fail ! . 42 here in sunny Melbourne today No No No No I love my air conditioner !
90th Joker
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:01 am

Yep we're into the high 30s, was forced to drink obscene amounts of beer yesterday at the game, purely medicinal of course.
Ive sent some photos of to Steve ( My poster ) the 'old' days with photobucket was the limit of my expertise.
Cheers
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PostSubject: The wrecked camp    Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:32 am

Hi Frank
Yes that's bad luck about the beer , but I suppose someone has to do it ! lolllll . We had a power outage this arvo , missed most of the last session at the cricket , luckily I found my battery operated radio ! . The temperature was 43 deg when it went off , luckily it dropped to 26 about 3 hrs later , power was back not long after that . I'll send Les the only pic I have of the Cairns high up on the slope , as you head around to the Western side of the mountain , as I said from memory there are 5 , possibly more , not sure , will check it out in May .
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:03 pm

Pictures from Frank

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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:28 pm

Thanks Steve.
Top. The Cave, or one of them
Second: Extreme left is Younghusbands cairn, extreme right on edge of photo the highest cairn.
Third: The cairn with the cave in the background
Forth: The Cairn with the ground dropping away to the West and towards Shepstones cairn group. Shiyane on the left horizon and the Biggarsberg to the right.

Cheers
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PostSubject: The wrecked camp    Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:38 pm

Hi Frank
India and England both in trouble ! .
90th Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:27 pm

Took b*lls for Mitch to block that last over and not take chances to give his brother the strike. Could you imagine the Waugh brothers doing that, hell cant even imagine them talking to each other.
India is fighting back a tad, I spent a couple of hours there earlier, great vibe. Will pop through for the first session tomorrow.
Looking forward to the next tour and seeing Steve Smith in action.
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:28 pm

You do know that petes going to come down on this don't you. Mad Mad Mad Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: The wrecked camp    Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:30 pm

With luck he won't notice ??? hahahahahahaha
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:32 pm

Just pretend its Computer speak. agree
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:47 pm

Keppler Wessels and Shaun Pollock are commentating and have been working on a plan to get Steve Smith out: Hit him with a cricket bat. hard, as he walks out seems to be the concensus.
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PostSubject: The wrecked camp    Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:55 pm

That may work ! hahahahahahha
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PostSubject: Re: The Wrecked Camp   Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:40 pm

Les you once asked about long grass at iSandlwana, would this answer your question? I haven't seen it much longer.
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PostSubject: The wrecked camp    Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:35 pm

Thanks Les much appreciated , Frank , yes the Grass , when I was last in Z'land May of 2017 , the grass was as tall as I've ever seen it on the side of the roads , it was to tall to go and look over Wolf Hill and Ft Evelyn , would've been a waste of time walking through knee to waist high grasses . I'm hoping there are some fires before I get there in May !
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