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Zulu Dawn Film Lt. Col. Pulleine: Lord Chelmsford assures us that there is no way the Zulu can get around us without our knowing. Col. Durnford: Zulu generals have a nasty habit of doing the unexpected. It might be wise to picket the hills.
 
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The Death of Lt. Frith, 17th Lancers.
National Archives Screenshot-20190305-200950-Gallery-181x240 At eZungeni, Zulu War of 1879" original painting by Hermanus Willem Koekkoek (1869-1929) (Isandula Collection)
Isandlwana & Rorke's Drift 22nd January 2019
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Bill8183



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Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 50
Location : Sunderland

National Archives Empty
PostSubject: National Archives   National Archives EmptyWed May 02, 2018 3:15 pm

As a second topic, if you look up muster/pay lists at the National Archives, how much info are we looking at,pages etc? If I wanted to order online, I am aware it would cost £8.50 just for staff to see if it could be copied. If I wanted a roll eg.WO 16/1573 Muster & Paylist for 1/24 1877-1879 how many pages, would it be a prohibitive cost?
Just wondering if it would be worthwhile ordering or going in person.

Bill
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: National Archives   National Archives EmptyWed May 02, 2018 4:49 pm

To give some idea, this is a double page from a 1/24th Pay and Muster Book for 1878. You can see there are about 25 names per page (out of a battalion of say 800) - there are four quarterly pay returns in each year and you want three years 1877-79. Add on additional pages for dependants, defaulters, deductions etc. and you are looking at more than 500 pages in total. If they would do it (and I doubt that very much) it would cost an arm and a leg to have copied. If you go yourself you can photograph them for nothing, but it would take some time.
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Steve Reinstadtler
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Bill8183



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PostSubject: Re: National Archives   National Archives EmptyWed May 02, 2018 6:12 pm

Thanks for the reply, very informative. Nice to see what the originals look like. Guess it looks like it's more worth the cost to get the train down and book a few days in a hotel.
Cheers for the help.
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: National Archives   National Archives EmptyWed May 02, 2018 7:58 pm

Your welcome. If you do decide to go it saves quite a lot of time if you order the documents you want on line before you go. They will then be waiting for you. You don't say why you need copies, but if it is just to get a list of those in 24th involved in the AZW then Norman Holmes book "The Noble 24th" does that for you in some detail. It does turn up second hand and would be less costly than train fares and hotels!

Steve Reinstadtler
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PostSubject: Re: National Archives   National Archives EmptyWed May 02, 2018 8:42 pm

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Bill8183



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PostSubject: Re: National Archives   National Archives EmptyThu May 03, 2018 10:16 am

Morning gents,
Thanks for the above info, very helpful. Yes it would be very expensive to get the whole lot, I'll wait and see what they say. Perhaps they could break it down by quarter, who knows.

Basically it's just a little exercise I'm doing for my self to get a rough idea which soldiers were likely the ones who crossed the border in January. (I know LITTLE is not the word to use). Who were in the January draft, the likely candidates for the 520 replacements for the 1/24, is it possible to identify B Coy 1/24 in Pondoland (is the duty station annotated) etc.

I'm aware it took Holmes decades of research, but, things are just a little easier these days. (ahem)
I do have The Noble 24th & his previous Silver Wreath, great books, plus Dutton's Medal Roll, England's Sons and the various "Studies" volumes by Julian Whybra with the addenda & corrigenda he has found. Still, nothing beats seeing the real thing, which I'm sure will lead on to casualty list, effects list, pensions and records of service!

I know the above books are not 100% accurate, I've noted at least 100 differences between Dutton & Holmes, mainly initial, name variation rank etc, but also which clasp they were awarded. Even the original rolls & lists can be an issue, but, that's what makes it interesting. Even the above photo SEEMS to show people not in Holmes, I'll have a quick check through later.

Yep, it's a big task, but an interesting one. Maybe one day The Noble 24th can be updated.

Thanks again,

Bill
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: National Archives   National Archives EmptyThu May 03, 2018 10:48 am

I do agree that nothing beats handling the original documents. On your other question about the depot at Pietermaritzberg I found (while doing a little research in the RA P&M books for Julian), that Gunner William Taylor of the Rocket Battery (Russell's servant) was noted as assigned to the General Depot at the time he was killed at Isandhlwana. Russell had been adjutant at Fort Napier which no doubt is where they met. See Julian's piece in Studies in the AZW Vol. IV.

Good luck with your research.

Steve Reinstadtler
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