WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Film Quote Lieutenant Bromhead :If 1200 men couldn't hold a defensive position this morning, what chance have we with 100?
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Zululand population 1879?
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyYesterday at 4:27 pm by Julian Whybra

» Blood on the battlefield at iSandlwana
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyYesterday at 8:44 am by Frank Allewell

» Zulu Boys Recollection of the Zulu War
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 9:42 pm by Julian Whybra

» Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 9:39 pm by Julian Whybra

» Ingvald N NIlson
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 6:33 pm by John Young

» Out there from David Jackson
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 2:38 pm by Julian Whybra

» Sir George Pomeroy Colley
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 11:42 am by gardner1879

» Zulu Dinner, Brecon, 15th October 2022
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 11:23 am by Julian Whybra

» Dr Carver solves the mystery of iSandlwana
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Jun 29, 2022 11:14 am by Julian Whybra

» Bechuanaland police
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 3:18 pm by ciroferrara

» 17th Lancers
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 3:07 pm by gardner1879

» Commissary E. W. H. Webb, C.B.
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 4:02 pm by Julian Whybra

» Captain Robert Francis Vetch
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 1:03 pm by Frank Allewell

» The difference between a Drummer and a Boy in the Band.
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 4:07 am by magolding

» Remembering the Rebellion - The Zulu Uprising of 1906 Jeff Guy
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Jun 20, 2022 10:09 pm by Ian Chard

» Sergeant Arthur Horatio Still, 12th Lancers
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 7:29 pm by Julian Whybra

» Corporal James Lawler 1/24th
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 12:42 pm by gardner1879

» Quartermaster Michael James Kenny Connaught Rangers
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 12:39 pm by gardner1879

» Captain Ulick De Burgh
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 8:55 am by gardner1879

» I am a happy boy!
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 5:17 am by nitro450

» Patrick Murray, 313, 88th of Foot
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 5:22 pm by gardner1879

» Zulu Dawn on DVD - better than Blu-Ray?
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 3:29 pm by TimmyH

» Lieutenant Richard Hawes MacCarthy, 2nd/4th Regiment
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 2:59 pm by Julian Whybra

» Howard Molyneux Edward Brunker
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Jun 16, 2022 11:05 am by gardner1879

» Location of Special Service Officers 1878/9
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyWed Jun 15, 2022 12:34 pm by gardner1879

» Cdvs and cabinet card photos wanted
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyTue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm by ciroferrara

» Other ranks patrol jacket
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Jun 13, 2022 12:23 pm by John Young

» A Staffordshire Regiment in the Zulu and Zekukuni Campaigns
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Jun 12, 2022 5:12 pm by gardner1879

» Good website or seller for zulu war era Carte De Visites
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Jun 11, 2022 2:27 pm by ciroferrara

» In search of more service papers
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Jun 10, 2022 11:10 pm by charltontom7@gmail.com

» Isandlwana solving the enigma
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Jun 10, 2022 1:41 pm by Julian Whybra

» Brave mens blood. Frontier Light Horse picture
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Jun 09, 2022 8:54 pm by ciroferrara

» Picture Quiz
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Jun 04, 2022 2:56 pm by Julian Whybra

» Platinum Jubilee
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyFri Jun 03, 2022 10:25 pm by Julian Whybra

» Trooper G Hennessey (301) Frontier Light Horse
brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyThu Jun 02, 2022 2:43 pm by 90th

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
The Death of the Prince Imperial Zulu War 1879
Top posters
90th
brown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Barbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
brown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Barbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
littlehand
brown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Barbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
ADMIN
brown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Barbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
1879graves
brown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Barbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
brown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Barbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
rusteze
brown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Barbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
brown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Barbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
John
brown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Barbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
brown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_leftbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Barbrown - Which Trooper Brown? Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
No user
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
drift martini taylor harford 24th Mounted brown Isandlwana john Police james Prince Durnford Franklin zulu horse Woolfryes George henry Natal smith Russell william spalding payne carbineers
 

 Which Trooper Brown?

Go down 
4 posters
AuthorMessage
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2460
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Which Trooper Brown?   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySat Mar 23, 2019 9:50 am

I have been having an interesting discussion with “The Major” outside of the forum over the discovery of the bodies of Lieutenant & Captain Robert Barton, Coldstream Guards and Lieutenant James Poole, Border Horse.

Wood in his autobiography states the bodies were discovered by Trooper Brown, V.C., who I assume to be Trooper Peter Brown, V.C., formerly of the Cape Mounted Rifles.

However, Ron Lock in Blood on the Painted Mountain credits Trooper Robert “Bobby” Brown, D.C.M., formerly of the Frontier Light Horse, with the discovery. Yet I know he returned to the U.K. in 1879, as he received his D.C.M. at Windsor Castle, in December of that year.

The matter is further complicated on the V.C./G.C. site who attribute Trooper Peter Brown’s Victoria Cross presentation as being by Sir Garnet Wolseley, which I find hard to believe Wolseley left South Africa on 5th May 1880, a little under a month after Brown’s name appeared in The London Gazette of 12th April 1880.

Any thoughts, anyone?

JY
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10483
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Which Trooper Brown   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 3:52 am

Hi JY
You've probably done the same as me but I checked Wolseley's SA Journal 1879-80 , there is no mention of him bestowing the VC to Trooper Brown , Wolseley , as you are aware , embarked at Durban on April 27th to proceed to the UK , he had stops at Port Elizabeth and Cape Town from memory . Where was Lt Edward Stephenson Browne while Wood was with Eugenie's Party , could he have been the ' Brown(e) ' ? .
90th
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 9:33 am

Bonjour John,
I am not sure that helps but it is an FLH Trooper who saw Barton killed.
Source Natal Colonist, Saturday 12 April 1879, quoted in "The Boiling Cauldon", p. 273.
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2460
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 10:44 am

Frédéric,

Personally, I think the only people that saw Robert Barton die were Zulu.

His body was found someway off of the beaten track.

Other reports even confuse who he is actually carrying with him, one report has it he was carrying Rupert Weatherley.

Thanks anyway,

JY
Back to top Go down
barry

barry


Posts : 947
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Captain Barton   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 4:36 pm

Hi JY,


This may help. Taken from page  89, 'History of the NMP', by Holt.

quote ;
' From the camp at the Ityotyosi ( Princess  Eugenie's, that is) two of the Police were guided by a Zulu to the remains of Capt Barton, Grenadier Guards. This officer, when attempting to escape from Hlobane , had been followed by three Zulus  for a considerable distance , being overtaken and killed . His fate remained unknown until his body was pointed out'. unquote.


I have more on this about the actual discovery and what was removed from the scene, The descoverers performed a burial  of Barton's remains there too.  Based on the itinerary of the French Royal tour the finding of Barton's remains would have been in May of that year.
No Brown is mentioned in any of this. If the  quoted text above is correct, no one else did  know where this officer got to, or his fate.


regards



barry


Last edited by barry on Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2460
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 5:13 pm

Barry,

If anything it actually confuses the issue further. Holt manages to get Barton’s unit wrong, and no Coldstreamer that I know would like to have been referred as a Grenadier as they are Nulli Secundus.

Wood states the items removed were buttons from Barton’s breeches, and a squadron pay book from his pocket, does that coincide with the items that you know of?

I know that “The Major” is going to undertake some research in PMB. Hopefully the truth will out - eventually.

Thanks,

JY

Back to top Go down
barry

barry


Posts : 947
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Capt Barton   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 5:20 pm

Hi John,
Don't shoot the messenger.
Exactly how many  Capt bartons were there.?

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2460
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 5:41 pm

Barry,

As if I would...

Regarding your Barton query, too many, and it leads to confusion amongst some folk.

JY
Back to top Go down
barry

barry


Posts : 947
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Capt Barton.   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 6:22 pm

Hi JY,
The date of finding the body was May 27th 1880.
The Zulu who fired the shot through Bartons thigh  after  pursuing him for 12 miles,  showed Cpl Clarke NMP the remains. They erected a cairn of stones over the  body. They found Barton's cap and pocket book at his side. The Zulu returned his sword. During the chase the Zulu said  Capt Barton had tried several times to shoot him with his revolver, but it failed to discharge each time.
The Zulu did not mention any other person being with Barton during the chase.

source ; the unpublised war diaries of Tpr Clarke NMP/NP/SAMR/REF; Vol 1 page 63
 

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 6:56 pm

A Trooper Brown (unit and first-name are not mentioned) was also with Wood's expedition towards Hlobane's mountain at the beginning of September 1881.
"Trooper Brown, a smart, useful man, who had been selected from great many others to accompany the expedition".
Sorry, again that's not help!
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2460
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptySun Mar 24, 2019 7:26 pm

Barry,

Thanks for that I wonder if the pocket book was the squadron pay book?

Wood has it that the grave was marked with a black painted wooden cross on which was cut Robert Barton, killed in action, 28th March 1879.

We should get Commissioner Clarke on the case!

Frederic,

Well at least we can discount Trooper Robert Barton, DCM, from that expedition as he was already deceased by then.

JY



Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10483
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Which Trooper Brown   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 1:37 am

Hi JY
I've always read that Lt Col Frederick Weatherley was killed when trying to save his son Rupert , I think Capt Dennison was an eye witness ? , also have only ever read that Lt Pool(e) was killed with Barton. As per my earlier post , and I realise it's a longshot , but could the trooper Brown VC been a mix up with E.S.Browne 24th Regt VC , could he have possibly gone out with Wood and Eugenie ? .
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2460
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 1:53 am

Smoko,

I gave that example as to how questionable some of the reporting was in the Natal newspapers was.

I believe that we can discount Lieutenant Browne from the mix, as there is no evidence to support it.

JY
Back to top Go down
barry

barry


Posts : 947
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Capt Barton   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 3:18 am

Hi JY,

I take it that you are happy that we have the right man. I will check other sources which I have to see if I can cross reference any of this. I assume the Barton gravesite is some 20kms from the Hlobane action.


A little more about the activities on 27/05/1880;
On that day Wood and Princess Eugenie's entourage were visiting  Fort Newdigate , there to place a wreath and plant poppy seeds on the grave of Lt Frith, 17th Lancers, who by all accounts had been shot by his own men.  Thus, Wood was not present with Clarke when Barton's remains were found. There was another person there as Clarke refers to 'we'.


On the way back from Fort Newdigate, Wood shot a Hartebeest  with Clarke's carbine, which he had borrowed and then kept. The Hartebeest became a 'braai' that night at the Ityotyosi camp, feeding the whole Royal entourage. Clarke had no difficulty , on returning to PMBG sans his rifle, telling Maj Dartnell where it was, and how he a mere corporal then, had trained the General earlier in the tour to shoot 'properly'  with his carbine.



Checking the names listed for the French Royal entourage I see that a Brown, Hutton and Ford were listed as 'servants' . This may tally with both 90th's and ymobs posts. I seem to remember too that the servants chosen were selected because of their proven military prowess.
regards

barry
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 2460
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 66
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

brown - Which Trooper Brown? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Which Trooper Brown?   brown - Which Trooper Brown? EmptyMon Mar 25, 2019 6:43 am

Barry,

Thanks for all of that.

Wood had experienced previous difficulties with carbines, Fowler at Khambula proved that.

I have forwarded some of your information on to “The Major” to help him progress matters in KZN.

Regards,

JY
Back to top Go down
 
Which Trooper Brown?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Trooper David Doig, father-in-law Trooper Robert Adams
» trooper CLARKE N.M.P - trooper PARSONS/ 21/01/1879
» sergeant G J Brown
» Commandant George Hamilton Browne
» Commandant George Hamilton-Brown

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: