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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Info needed   Info needed EmptyFri Jan 01, 2021 9:32 am

Captain FW Heneage RE arrived in SA with the reinforcements along with Anstey. There is a reference that he was iSandlwana and made a sketch, again potentially he could have been involved with Anstey and Penrose in the battlefield sketches.
He was ADC to Major-General Marshall so would quite probably accompanied him to iSandlwana.
Im looking for any information that could prove or disprove the reference. In fact any details at all.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Info Needed    Info needed EmptyFri Jan 01, 2021 10:50 am

Happy New Year Frank ! .
I only have what you've mentioned , although it states in Mac & Shad that he was  '' Subsequently employed on the lines of communication '' . Who knows.... he may've went , or not to Isandlwana , although I can't remember coming across any sketches by him of Isandlwana ,  or anywhere else for that matter . Salute Salute . I see your cases are steadily growing day by day , I wonder if the indigenous population are still of the opinion that it's a White Man's disease , as they were stating back in March ! , I would imagine the near 30 K death toll would be 98 % Indigenous !? . I was hoping to be over in June , don't think that will happen , Hell..... I'm not even sure Ian's trip in Oct will proceed ! , he has another slated for March , we all know that's an impossibility .
90th You need to study mo
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1879graves

1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyFri Jan 01, 2021 11:02 am

Hi Frank

This is no help re the sketches but comes under (any details at all)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Lincolnshire Chronicle 28 April 1882.

Happy New Year

Andy
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyFri Jan 01, 2021 12:19 pm

Thanks Andy, Happy New Year, I do hope its better for us all. Thank you for the cutting, its all grist to the mill.
Hi Gary, Ive established that as ADC to Marshall he was at iSandlwana on Marshalls visit. Ive also got some quotes from him, but second hand. Its tracking down the priginals and his service history thats proving to be a bugger. The sketches he made have been confirmed as definite, but agin tracking them down is proving difficult.
Last nights total of new infections was 18000 with over 400 dead. We have said in the past that once it got into the informal housing it would take its toll, so its proving. We are again in isolation, drawbridge is pulled up and land mines primed.
The mighty warriors that form our government have again failed miserably in terms of the vaccinations with an expected around 10% arriving mid year and at the anticipated rate of application will take around 40 to 50 years ( all being well of course) to inject the whole country, provided of course they dont get stolen and sold on the black markets as fertility drugs.
There is I believe quite a bit of entrepenurial spirit prevailing in that with the new 'South African' strain of virus, calls are going out to the various nations around the world asking for 'donations' 20 million a time I believe otherwise we send a couple of guys with a cough to visit. England were late paying unfortunatly. Joker
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jaycee



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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptySun Jan 03, 2021 9:34 am

Good morning Frank

this is my first post on this site so please forgive me if i transgress any protocols .
i am in possession of an Artillery Officer's sword picked up during the battle of iSandlwana ( by a Zulu )
and passed down through our family , ending with my paternal grandmother and now myself - rather
a long story but i can elucidate later if required .
whilst this story has been passed down to us grandchildren over the last 60 years , i do understand
that the provenance is of some import - i have no reason to disbelieve the saga but find it impossible
to prove , and quite honestly , don't care - it's one of our family stories that we knew was true but
did not consider to verify while the key players were still alive ...
i have only been made aware in the last two years that this sword could have great historical interest .
please advise if this is so and what my next step should be.

regards
J.C. van Rooyen Durban South Africa
( John )
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Info Needed    Info needed EmptySun Jan 03, 2021 11:49 am

Welcome Jaycee
What a great story , would love to see some pics , no need to worry about provenance , a piece of paper isn't always the be all and end all , I would imagine a serious Sword collector would have an idea of what model sword may have been in service at the time , I've little to no clue about swords , but I believe you'd have a wonderful item .
90th Salute Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptySun Jan 03, 2021 12:27 pm

Hi John welcome to the forum.
If the sword  is an iSandlwana relic it would have belonged to either Smith Russell or Curling. In a letter written by Gunner William Taylor to his wife, Susannah, January 28th he mentions retrieving Russell's sword and wanted to send to the Majors wife. That would then rule out Russells sword.
Henry Curling in his letters makes no mention of his sword but does significantly in a letter home, 2nd february, note that he lost everything of value: "The old dispatch box with letters, photos, accounts and all my little stock of studs, links etc." But no mention of his sword just his field kit. I would imagin he would have worn his sword into action and during the retreat down the fugitives trail. Then again Essex specifically says he didnt bother wearing his sword. That would in essence leave Stuart Smith who had been out with Chelmsford before rejoining the battery more or less as acyivity began so no doubt he would have been wearing his sword. As he was killed at Fugitives Drift there is no account that would offer any suggestion on his sword. Potentially there were then two artillery swords that could have been lost and found.

If you can post a photo Im sure John Young would be able to give you chapter and verse on the pattern, given the values of Zulu war relics I have no doubt it would be of good value and if it could be proved as belonging to any of the three Artillery officers it would have considerable historical as well as financial value.

Probably the most famous swords lost were Melvill's, in Brickhills testimony he mentions Melvill asking him if he had seen his sword,"back there", and of course Edward Essex.

Provenance of course is everything.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptySun Jan 03, 2021 7:36 pm

As Frank says chapter & verse.

1855 Pattern Royal Artillery Officer’s Sword.
The pattern of sword had been carried by the Royal Horse Artillery since 1833, was subsequently prescribed for foot - field - batteries of Artillery in 1855.  The sword was of the same pattern as the 1822 Pattern Light Cavalry Sword.  The only variation was that the pommel was stepped, rather than being chequered.  The blade’s length 351/2 inches, it terminated in a spear point.  The sword was carried in a steel scabbard with two suspension rings.

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A Lieutenant, Royal Artillery, circa 1876 carrying the 1822 Pattern Sword.
(John Young Collection.)

JY
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barry

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PostSubject: Recovery of a sword   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 6:28 am

Hi All,
Capt Barton's sword was recovered many months post
Isandlwana. It was found with his body and other personal effects.

regards

barry
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 6:42 am

Barry,

To my knowledge the only Captain Barton who fought at iSandlwana was William Barton of the Native Horse, and he survived the battle.

I think that you may be referring to Lieutenant & Captain Robert Barton, Coldstream Guards, who died near to Hlobane.

JY
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jaycee



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Join date : 2020-11-26

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 7:00 am

hi John Young
my sword looks similar to the one in the picture you posted  but not enough detail to be certain  -
i have many pictures of my sword and find the best way to forward is via my cellphone on WhatsApp


Last edited by jaycee on Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 7:14 am

Good morning John,

I’ve dropped you a WhatsApp message, best to edit your post and remove your number.

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 7:38 am

What I have on captain FW Heneage

He arrived in company with Major-General Marshall, lieutenants Anstey and Penrose aboard the 'England' on the 6th April 1879. He was appointed, local general orders #78, as ADC to Marshall on the 7th April so he obviously made a good impression on the voyage out.
He arrived at Rorkes Drift on the 19th May and within two days visited the battlefield with Marshalls forces.
He is quoted in 'A Soldiers Life and Work in South Africa, Edward Durnford,' as having made a reconnaissance sketch of iSandlwana.
Further un sourced quotes ( still trying to find the source ) described the position that Durnfords body was located: "about 150 yards from the hill itself, and about 70 from the small hill on the south; close to the road and on the site of the camp. It was reported by a Carbineer who escaped that they had come in and picketed their horses to the picket-ropes, and then fought on foot."
"The ground near the hill was quite unsuitable for the actions of mounted men. Durnfords body was placed in a donga head, and a yokestay driven in to mark the spot. I came across too late to see the body and drove a shovel handle in to better mark the place, in case any of us have a better oportunity of burying him. From all account, and from what we have seen, he must have taken out his mounted men to find out the strength of the enemy, and then returned to camp and died trying to save it. It must have been 50 yards from him, over the neck that the rush was made to escape."
Still pursuing the map location and the source of the quotes.


Last edited by Frank Allewell on Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 7:45 am

Frank,

Heneage was one of Wolseley’s Red River Expedition Officers in Canada in 1870.

There are a couple of photographs of him held in McCord Museum, Montreal, here’s one of them:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

There are two others in McCord Notman Archive, which I suspect are mislabelled as “T. Heneage”.

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 8:12 am

Thanks John. The main aim of looking into him is to find his map, Edward Durnford saw it. There is also one other illusive sketch, Major RJC Marter, KDG was also present and made a sketch. Also seemingly untraceable.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 8:17 am

Frank,

I think you will find the sketch attributed to Marter is at The Firing Line Museum, Cardiff Castle.

See [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 8:44 am

Hi John
I have that one, there seems to be a different one, more concerned with Durnfords body. But I will contact the QDG again.
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 8:55 am

Frank,

What QDG do not have, the National Army Museum might hold. Marter’s last surviving relative donated material to the NAM in the early 1970’s.

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 9:33 am

Been there John. the Marter collection at NAM is a number of articles probably collected at iSandlwana, pouches from the 24th etc.
Being in SA is a blessing for on the spot research but on occasion a pain for long distance stuff. There are around 5 maps located at Chatham RE museum that dont seem to be annotated, I have the file reference but access is something else. Bloody lockdowns.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 11:56 am

Jaycee
Probably the expert would be Robert Wilkinson-Latham. I would suggest do some research and try and locate a contact for him.

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90th

90th

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Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Info Needed    Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 1:36 pm

Yes agree with JY , Capt William Barton survived Isandlwana , Capt Robert Barton was Killed with Lt William Pool after they fled from Hlobane , the Induna Sitsshitshili claimed responsibility , he said he killed 7 or 8 people that day , from memory not sure of the number he quoted .
90th Salute
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyMon Jan 04, 2021 7:51 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
What I have on captain FW Heneage

He arrived in company with Major-General Marshall, lieutenants Anstey and Penrose aboard the 'England' on the 6th April 1879. He was appointed, local general orders #78, as ADC to Marshall on the 7th April so he obviously made a good impression on the voyage out.
He arrived at Rorkes Drift on the 19th May and within two days visited the battlefield with Marshalls forces.
He is quoted in 'A Soldiers Life and Work in South Africa, Edward Durnford,' as having made a reconnaissance sketch of iSandlwana.
Further un sourced quotes ( still trying to find the source ) described the position that Durnfords body was located: "about 150 yards from the hill itself, and about 70 from the small hill on the south; close to the road and on the site of the camp. It was reported by a Carbineer who escaped that they had come in and picketed their horses to the picket-ropes, and then fought on foot."
"The ground near the hill was quite unsuitable for the actions of mounted men. Durnfords body was placed in a donga head, and a yokestay driven in to mark the spot. I came across too late to see the body and drove a shovel handle in to better mark the place, in case any of us have a better oportunity of burying him. From all account, and from what we have seen, he must have taken out his mounted men to find out the strength of the enemy, and then returned to camp and died trying to save it. It must have been 50 yards from him, over the neck that the rush was made to escape."
Still pursuing the map location and the source of the quotes.

Bonjour frank,
One another testimony  told that Durnford's body was placed in a donga which was not exactly the spot where he was killed.
Amitié
Fred
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyTue Jan 05, 2021 10:21 am

Hi Fred
Unfortunatly Captain Heneage was not very good in judging distances, his estimates just dont intersect.
I hope Christmas has been good for the family and your all safe and sound.

Regards

Frank
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
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PostSubject: Re: Info needed   Info needed EmptyTue Jan 05, 2021 11:27 am

Bonjour,
Unfortunately, I haven't further informations about the place of the donga where Durnford's body was buried except that this donga was not very far form the spot where Durnford's body was found. It is a second hand-account from Shepstone.
About Essex's sword (quoted in your post from last sunday): Essex's sword (without the scabbard) was given by a Zulu to the British in July 1879.
Christmas was spent in strict confinement. I understand that the health situation in South Africa is critical with the appearance of a variant of the virus.
Amitié
Fred

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