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 Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene

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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 3:06 am

Hi Kate

No need to apologize I to need to buy a Victorian Umbrella stand thanks

I firstly welcome your questions and your open mind thanks

At 1200pm  Essex talks of the formation moving in front of him like a horn from right to left (east to west) which means the right horn must have remained stationary for approx 2 hours from 10am till noon. somewhere north of Mkwene.


 Great Question I did say and provided a photo of the right horn moving into position at around 930am so from 930am till the first gunshots of the discovery they remained some were close to that gully just above the Manzimyama stream which was indicated in my photo. So lets go to Essex he did see one regiment moving in the shape of the horn in a flanking move  exactly how Ian said on his tour but that was one regiment not the whole right horn that regiment was the Nokenke  which moved up with the umCijo at 9am to the dead ground beside that donga. Uguku describes this in his testimony " . We were not checked at all by the skirmishers, but continued our march on the camp until the artillery opened up on us, and the first shell took effect in the ranks of my regiment, just above the kraal of Baza. The Nokenki then ran out in the shape of a horn towards the kraal of Nyumyeni, on the road between Isandula and Rorke’s Drift, followed by the Nodwengu."    
 this matches Essex testimony perfectly Uguku would have been very close to Mkwene to see this happen and he ends with the Nodwengu these  are those 3 regiments that Higginson saw at 930 moving behind Isandlwana which came from the northen banks of the Manzimyama stream indicated on my photo


Kate do you now what caused Pulliene to return those two company's from the Tehalane ridge  to camp in fact Pulliene sends Melville out to Essex on the ridge to call them back why this will surprise you “ About 5 minutes after the arrival of Captain Mostyn’s Company I was informed by Lieut Melville Adjutant 1st Battalion 24th Regiment, that a body of the enemy was appearing in force in our rear and he requested me to direct the left of the line formed as described, to fall slowly back”
Melville was warning Essex that the Zulu are already behind Isandlwana this is the right horn coming down from the high ground  I have indicated in my photo Essex had his eyes on the Nokenke and did not know he was being outflanked theNokenke joins up with the right horn behind Isandlwana and there target is the saddle to shut their escape route.


Your next question  Would Raw and Robert's have then set off east along the Nqutu plateau towards the Ngwebeni valley if the 5000 Zulus of the right horn was north or west of them?

Surely Barry and his mob would have informed Robert's and Raw where the Zulu were and they would not have set off in an easterly direction with Zulus to their rear; Zulus who could then potentially cut off their escape route back tot the camp.
Barry goes with Robert's and Raw, would he really do that if there were Zulus behind him
Another Great Question This is what we now happened when Raw and Roberts arrived he or I should say George Shepstone told Barry that he and half his men are to support them in clearing the valley before them of any Zulus this he done Higginson in his testimony confirms this. And it is from Mkwene or very close to Mkwene that these cattle are sighted and we know what happend after that.. 

And lastly Kate  I've no idea who those early Zulus were but I don't think it was the right horn.

With respect your wrong that was the right horn and Melville confirms it[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I have a question and seeing I respect Frank knowledge on the subject I would like him to answer it.
We know for certain the action around Mkwene was raging for around 30 minutes before the arrival of the chest why is this so when all our books say they were all discovered all at the same time in the same location why did it take the chest longer ? I have been asking myself this for years why ?

  Hi Mike you were asking for a map here it is mate I welcome any questions you may have also.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 7:49 am

Morning Inky. We are going to disagree on a number of issues but wow mate you really are putting in the hard yards. We'll done indeed. Your question on why the elements arrived at different times? I agree the right was already formed up, we can disagree on where they were, and were well advanced. I believe it's because of this that part of them broke away when they were held back to attack cavey etc that reduced the strength of the right. The chest was facing Raw and so were slowed down. The left were held back by ntshingwayo for their briefing. I'm pretty sure that's why the right was held back to wait for the rest to catch up. Pity the Zulu didn't learn their lesson for future battles.
Keep it going mate your doing a great job thinking out of the box.
Cheers
Frank
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 7:55 am

Sorry meant to add. Your comment that Melville warned Essex about the right horn? If they were sneaking down the gully at the manzimnyama how could he see them. Certainly not from the camp and that's where he would have had to have seen them from.
Cheers
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 8:40 am

Thanks Frank 

Yes I am thinking out of the box, you would not believe all the hours I put into this, I can imagine all the research you put into that book, I have a  great deal of respect to all those authors the hours is mind blowing.

The Zulu held back at Isandlwana !!!

Raw faced the umCijo until the main attack started.

When you say the Left was held back for their briefing I am presuming the Left Horn, Like Mehlakazulu said when the gunfire was heard in that dead ground that alerted all the others

Then you say the right was held up also, nonsense What alerted Pulliene of the early appearance of the right horn was the look outs Durnford put on Isandlwana mount the only good move he done all morning the rest was deplorable. Consider the timing it would of taken Melville 15 minutes to reach Essex So he arrived shortly after the Nokenke started their flanking move remember Mostyn was only there for 5 minutes according to Essex Of all things the right horn was not held back they went hell for leather to the saddle which means that look out on Isandlwana saw the first elements of the right horn within 15 minutes of the first gunshots the timing needs to be put into context this can only come from those Higginson saw at 930am moving behind Isandlwana from Mkwene. 

Your last comment Melville did warn Essex its in black and white read it mate. it can only come from Isandlwana mount the the attention of all the men was focused on Mkwene even the artillary were firing their first shots in that direction The early appearance of the right horn can not be rejected it did happen Melville and Essex said so and I forgot Pulliene he was the one who ordered Melville up to warn Essex.

I have a panorama from Isandlwana mount showing this as well Frank.
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peter@zuluwars



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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 9:59 am

Thank you all for your kind words.

With regard to Ron lock, he is still to this day very sorely missed.
A gentle soul, with never a bad word to say against another.
He always checked his draft works against primary source material, without exception.
No invention of facts ever.

He indeed added a new dimension to my life.

Aussie Inkosi; Your e-mail ---- Regret that I have not received any message

Peter Q.
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 10:10 am

Hi Peter

I got into this through the Major Paul Naish who was great mates with Ron there is a few things I would love to go through with you concerning my Project and the Missing five hours and a discovery I have found through my research my email is below

zulu1879.as@gmail.com

Thanks mate

I sent my private message into your inbox
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 11:03 am


When you say the Left was held back for their briefing I am presuming ( not presuming, fact)the Left Horn, Like Mehlakazulu said when the gunfire was heard in that dead ground that alerted all the others

Then you say the right was held up also, nonsense (Really!) What alerted Pulliene of the early appearance of the right horn was the look outs Durnford put on Isandlwana mount ( Your Assuming this )the only good move he done all morning the rest was deplorable. ( Rather insulting based on very little fact) Consider the timing it would of taken Melville 15 minutes to reach Essex So he arrived shortly after the Nokenke started their flanking move ( An assumption based on an initial assumption, not fact)remember Mostyn was only there for 5 minutes according to Essex Of all things the right horn I would disagree heartilywas not held back they went hell for leather to the saddle which means that look out on Isandlwana saw the first elements of the right horn within 15 minutes of the first gunshots the timing needs to be put into context this can only come from those Higginson saw at 930am moving behind Isandlwana from Mkwene. Why

Your last comment Melville did warn Essex its in black and white read it mate. Melville told Essex there were men moving behind him, not where they were coming from, there is no mention of the right horn moving behind Essex, IF the right horn descended by the manzimnyama its a hell of a thought to put them trying to cut of Essex rather than head to the saddle, cut the road and chase the fugitives, none of which had started to occur, your time line doesnt work it can only come from Isandlwana mount the the attention of all the men was focused on Mkwene even the artillary were firing their first shots in that direction The early appearance of the right horn can not be rejected it did happen Melville and Essex said so and I forgot Pulliene he was the one who ordered Melville up to warn Essex. Massive stretch of the imagination mate. You have a great theory but your stretching the imagination to fit your concept.
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 12:23 pm

Frank

Like I said in my comment their target was the saddle not Essex. Its really easy to work out mate The message came from Melville he came from the camp,,Isandlwana is blocking their view seeing they will be near the tent area taking care of the Zulu first assault coming from Mkwene and you need elevation or be on the other side of Isandlwana which they were not its those scouts on Isandlwana itself that alarms the British. What is your answer on this then ?

Frank none of us has facts all we have to work with are the testimony left behind by those who survived.  If we dont take these testimony's as truth then we are all wasting our time.

Facts are, Higginson saw 5,000 Zulus moving behind Isandlwana at 930am and you have them north of Mkwene at the discovery. Then we find Zulus behind Isandlwana as things are developing around Mkwene were did they come from ?

My theory is based on the testimony's we have and only that.  Barkers find explains it , and no one in 142 years has put the two together

By the way when will your book be available to purchase.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 1:10 pm

Just putting my proofreading head on here for a moment.

It is Melvill, rather than Melville.

JY
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 1:41 pm

Having a good Sunday John? Very Happy

Inky its with the printers at the moment.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 1:51 pm

Frank,

I thought the pair were about to start discussing the merits of Moby Dick, rather than iSandlwana.

I was about to change my moniker to Ishmael.

JY
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 pm

Rather watch the F1, interesting race.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 2:02 pm

Sending a PM John, on a matter we discussed a couple of weeks back.
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 2:12 pm

Inky
Whether it was the entire right horn, half of the right horn or a quarter of it. Thats still a lot of Zulus up there to the North West of Mkwene.

Why would Robert's Raw, Barry and Co. travel east across the plateau rounding up cattle and pushing back a few skirmishers if there was a large force of Zulus, that they had seen, to the north west behind them. scratch

Kate

ps
Also page 267 The Anatomy of the Zulu Army from Shaka to Cetshwayo 1818 -1879 by Ian Knight
"uKhandempemvu 'Head with black and white markings', also known as uMcijo 'the red needle pointed at both ends'...
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 2:23 pm

'the red needle pointed at both ends'
Monty Python could base a whole show on that. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 2:24 pm

John
I thought Frank and Inky were having a whale of a time spouting off their opinions Joker Joker
K
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 2:29 pm

The real question we need to be discussing is "How would Capt. Ahab have defended Isandlwana camp?"
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 2:37 pm

Badly Blubbering all the way home!
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 4:05 pm

Michael,

It was actually Captain Ahab who was seen waving towards the end of the action.

Rumour has it George Hamilton Browne was on the Pequod.

JY
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptySun Sep 26, 2021 4:13 pm

He would have sailed round the horn. Rolling Eyes
K
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 7:40 am

John Young wrote:
Just putting my proofreading head on here for a moment.

It is Melvill, rather than Melville.

JY
You are indeed correct John I was using the version from select document of the Zulu War page 122 it seems they have it wrong as well

INKY
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 10:52 am

Morning Inky
You have a PM
Kate Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 11:34 am

From all the evidence given before the Court of Enquiry, it would appear that on the morning of the 22nd, when Lord Chelmsford determined to support Major Dartnell with main portion of Colonel Glyn’s column, the later placed Lieutenant-Colonel Pulleine, 1/24th in charge of the camp. His Staff Officer, Major Clery states, “Before leaving the camp I sent written instructions to Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment, to the following effect:-“You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn; draw in (Ispeak from memory) your camp or your line of defence, ‘I am not certain which, ‘while the force is out; also draw in the line of your infantry outposts accordingly, but keep your cavalry vedettes still far advanced.” I went to Colonel Pulleine’s tent just before leaving camp to ascertain that he had got these instructions, and I again repeated them verbally to him.

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 1:04 pm

Inky
Some support for your theory:
Captain Mostyn’s company joined Lieutenant Cavaye’s, and about five minutes afterwards the whole of the troops here engaged where ordered to fall back as the enemy were threatening their left rear. They did so, and retired to a position about 400 yards from the foot of the hills, where they were drawn up in extended order, with Captain Younghusband’s company on the left flank,
Report by Walter James R.E. Intelligence Branch War Office.

Cheers
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peter@zuluwars



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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 3:31 pm


May I ask the question:

What was the primary cause of the defeat at Isandlwana and views on the field commanders?

Peter Q.

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 3:52 pm

Hi Peter.
Primary cause, splitting the force.
Chelmsfords taken a lot of stick for that but I believe Dartnell presented him with a no win situataion. If he hadnt gone to rescue him and the zulu army had descended on him most of the Natal families would have lost a loved one or two. Chelmsford wouldnt have made it past the bluff.
So a view on the Command team.
Pulleine was in over his head.
Durnford was desperate to get back into the good books after his tongue lashing from Chelmsford
Chelmsford far to arrogant for his, and his mens good
Glyn. Sulking without the balls to stand up to his boss. Buller or Woos wouldnt have let him get away with things.
And for me the ultimate culprit. Dartnell. Full blame fair and square on his shoulders, disobeys orders to return back to camp, again his arrogance in thinking he could beat the Zulu army, thats what he thought he was facing, and ultimatly that decision split the army and caused us to spend absolute hours disecting and discusing this damned battle.
Your ex army, what orders would you have issued to Dartnell around 4 oclock on the 21st?

Cheers
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 4:00 pm

Interesting point on Dartnell, I'd never thought about matters in that light.

Well, it's a tricky situation. One of the primary tenets of reconnaissance is to gain and maintain contact with the enemy, which Dartnell absolutely did do. That being said, be embraced far too much tactical risk by doing so with a force entirely insufficient to the task, thereby forcing Chelmsford's hand.

If the GOC ordered Dartnell to break contact and return, he loses contact with the entire objective of the campaign. If the GOC divided his force and brought out a flying column to reinforce, he accepts a greater degree of tactical risk to all of No. 3 Column, partially mitigated by bringing up No. 2 Column. Throw in an absolute dumpster fire of a sprawling camp as well as a command staff that was 100% positive on their enemy SITTEMP, and you have a recipe for disaster.

I believe four of us? on this chat have held command in either the British or US Army. Regardless of errors made, we all know the burden of command responsibility.
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peter@zuluwars



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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 6:48 pm

Indeed WW, I had the very great privilege of serving for many years in the British army Brigade of Gurkha's, mainly in the Far East.

My take on which Commander was in the main responsible for the defeat, rests with the camp commander, namely Colonel Henry Pulleine, 24th Regiment.
Methinks it was reasonable for Chelmsford, on receipt of perceived good intelligence that the Zulu army was located in the Mangeni Fall area to the north, to take a sufficient force out to make contact to do battle and defeat them.
That left Pulleine in charge as Camp Commander. It is a fact that Pulleine had held mainly in the past, administrative posts with no combat command. Notwithstanding, that left no excuse for him not to apply a degree of commonsense to meet an attack which he knew was coming from reports received. Most, if not all commanders of that rank would have considered:

1. Dropping all tents thus exposing an excellent all round field of fire.

2. The accepted tactical drill in the circumstances was to 'Form Square.' Had he achieved this by moving his force forward to the stream below, and placed his Gatlings on each corner of the Square, the advancing Zulus, before reaching throwing distance of the Square, would surely have been decimated.

3. With hindsight, it is difficult to conclude why Pulleine did not execute the tactical 'Square.'
The answer lies in the possible belief that that his existing field position was more than good
enough to deal with the Zulus, with his Martini Henry vs the Spear? Let them advance and the
MH and rifles would respond.

Peter Q.


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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 7:16 pm

In  my opinion Lord Chelmsford is to blame.
He was fighting 'yesterdays war' ie believing he was up against the Xhosa and not the increased fighting ability of the Zulu.
By underestimating them he split his forces before knowing the location of the enemy. I mean can you imagine what would have happened if the Zulu army had hit his strung out force that morning? Ye gads it doesn't bare thinking about.

I think when Durnford arrived at the camp he tried to make sense of all the conflicting reports that had come in that morning from the outlying picquets and vedettes. The only way to clarify what the hell was going on was to use the mobility of his mounted men to get out there and have a look. I don't think his intention was stir up the hornets nest and take on the entire Zulu army.  Did Durnford make mistakes on the day? Yes. Were they battle losing mistakes? No.

To a lesser extent Pulleine was following Lord Chelsmford's orders regarding deploying his forces in an extended line despite being stripped of men and ordnance that morning. He was also placed in a difficult dilemma with the arrival of Durnford.
However at a crucial time he appeared to dither and it was only Captain Alan Gardner's decisiveness that prevented him making a severe mistake in sending out further supplies to Chelmsford.
Also failing to drop  the tents was a huge whopper.

I have to agree with Captain Alan Gardner who was the only officer to have survived who was party to and witnessed the actions of both Chelmsford and Pulleine that morning.
He would have seen the way Chelmsford behaved, receiving despatches giving orders etc and watched Pulleine during the heat of the battle.
In a  private letter he lays the blame clearly on Lord Chelmsford's doorstep.

Lord Chelmsford .....'Guilty M'lord'

Bottom line, and I hate to say this as a very loyal and patriotic Brit, the Zulus were better than and outfought us on the day.
Kate Sad
ps a couple of edits to put this in. In a tiny (and its not much) defence of Chelmsford, Frank you mention Wood. Well was behaving exactly the same as Chelmsford t'up north with thinly spread forces scattered from here to high heaven.He was just lucky he wasn't whacked at the same time.


Last edited by gardner1879 on Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 7:57 pm

I would agree a square should have been the prefered defence Peter but Pulleine did have a set of orders on how to face up to an enemy force. In addition he was ordered to protect the camp. Hence my comment that he was in over his head, he did not have the confidence to work against his superior's instruction even when it was patently obvious it would lead to defeat. A second point on Pulleine's character is that Clery had the temerity to issue an order to a superior that on the face of it was not questioned. Clery seems to brag about that in his statement to the COE.
Your concept of the square and its positioning was echoed in a post I made some time ago.

Cheers
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 10:24 pm

gardner1879 wrote:
In  my opinion Lord Chelmsford is to blame.
He was fighting 'yesterdays war' ie believing he was up against the Xhosa and not the increased fighting ability of the Zulu.
By underestimating them he split his forces before knowing the location of the enemy. I mean can you imagine what would have happened if the Zulu army had hit his strung out force that morning? Ye gads it doesn't bare thinking about.

I think when Durnford arrived at the camp he tried to make sense of all the conflicting reports that had come in that morning from the outlying picquets and vedettes. The only way to clarify what the hell was going on was to use the mobility of his mounted men to get out there and have a look. I don't think his intention was stir up the hornets nest and take on the entire Zulu army.  Did Durnford make mistakes on the day? Yes. Were they battle losing mistakes? No.

To a lesser extent Pulleine was following Lord Chelsmford's orders regarding deploying his forces in an extended line despite being stripped of men and ordnance that morning. He was also placed in a difficult dilemma with the arrival of Durnford.
However at a crucial time he appeared to dither and it was only Captain Alan Gardner's decisiveness that prevented him making a severe mistake in sending out further supplies to Chelmsford.
Also failing to drop  the tents was a huge whopper.

I have to agree with Captain Alan Gardner who was the only officer to have survived who was party to and witnessed the actions of both Chelmsford and Pulleine that morning.
He would have seen the way Chelmsford behaved, receiving despatches giving orders etc and watched Pulleine during the heat of the battle.
In a  private letter he lays the blame clearly on Lord Chelmsford's doorstep.

Lord Chelmsford .....'Guilty M'lord'

Bottom line, and I hate to say this as a very loyal and patriotic Brit, the Zulus were better than and outfought us on the day.
Kate Sad
ps a couple of edits to put this in. In a tiny (and its not much) defence of Chelmsford, Frank you mention Wood. Well was behaving exactly the same as Chelmsford t'up north with thinly spread forces scattered from here to high heaven.He was just lucky he wasn't whacked at the same time.

Try reading the "Durnford was he capable" threads.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 10:29 pm

With regards to Pulleine, his orders were to defend the camp. Not to preserve his combat power. Not to conduct 100% annual cyber awareness training but to defend the camp and its precious stores. By the time he realized the extent of the attack, the whirlwind was already unleashed.

Remember that quote attributed to him, likely at the time the first ceasefire was sounded. "What a fool a fellow is... if we had just kept quiet, we should have lured out the Zulus and given them a proper thrashing." Or something along those lines.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 10:39 pm

And Durnfords orders were to reinforce the camp. Not take command.
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 10:52 pm

Quote :
Try reading the "Durnford was he capable" threads.

Peter was asking for forum members opinions of who they thought was to blame and I have given mine.
Perhaps if you wish to explore it further you could try reading Gardner's letters.

Or perhaps share your opinion as to who you think was to blame with us.
Kate Very Happy
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyMon Sep 27, 2021 11:17 pm

Read the was Durnford capable threads and you will see my opinion on who's to blame. You might even enjoy it. There are some very interesting posts.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 6:54 am

Morning Sarge, good to see you back.
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 7:31 am

Frank Allewell wrote:Inky
Some support for your theory:
                   Captain Mostyn’s company joined Lieutenant Cavaye’s, and about five minutes afterwards the whole of the troops here engaged where ordered to fall back as the enemy were threatening their left rear. They did so, and retired to a position about 400 yards from the foot of the hills, where they were drawn up in extended order, with Captain Younghusband’s company on the left flank,
Report by Walter James R.E. Intelligence Branch War Office.

Cheers

Thanks Frank give it more study I respect your opinion even though we differ on a lot. I am almost as certain of this as I am with the discovery location and I am 99% certain of that. As I was working on my pastries today I was thinking who else may have seen the right horn coming down the Manzimyama and the only other possibilities I could think of is Someone from Durnfords column remember Vause went back to secure the wagons maybe as they were entering the camp they first saw the early movement of the right horn but personally I favor the Isandlwana look out.

Remember those Zulu Melvill was warning Essex of did not come from the same location as the Nokenke and umCijo from the dead ground because they were already behind Isandlwana when those 2 regiments were attacking Mkwene.

Concerning my opinion on who is to blame for the disaster.
Here is my top 4 in responsibility 

1/ Chelmsford with out doubt firstly he did not have a great deal of respect for Zulu fighting abilities and for not insisting on laagering the camp we know for certain how even quickly prepared defenses work at Rorkes drift and would have work at Isandlwana, It would not surprise me if there was no action at Isandlwana he would of continued not laagering future campsites all the way to Ulundi it took a disaster for him to learn his lesson the second reason his choice in going to Mangeni, remember when Dartnell left camp on the 21st he left with around 1,500 men then and on the 22nd early morning he weaken it more so.

2/ Dartnell for not returning to camp he new the poor fighting qualities of the NNC, the Boers would of had their scouting parties on horse back able to promptly retun to camp to give them plenty of warning the force was far to large a handful of trrops on Horse back is a perfect choice the more men he had in his command gave him more reason to attack the Zulu and not return to camp in a prompt manner.  Dartnell desire to stay forced Chelmsford hand many of these commanders in fact these top 3 commanders all take responsibly in weakening  the camp to attack Zulus.

3/ Durnford are you ready Frank and Kate Durnford gets a double serve of my trifle previously I said he only made one good move in fact he made two but he fails on the second one for not following it up. And its this which proves his incompetence not once but twice he was warned that thousands of Zulus were seen close to camp when he heard this the first time he should off prepared for an attack on the camp not entertain the idea like Chelmsford and Dartnell to attack the Zulu this happend just before entering Pulliene's tent " “ but  just  as  we  reached  the
                                                    General’s  tent,  which  was  at  the  upper  end  of  the  camp,  that  being  spread 
                                                    over  a  great  deal  of  ground  and  not  in  any  order,  we  saw  a  small  body  of 
                                                    Zulus  on  a  ridge  of  hills  to  the  right,  and  at  the  same  time  a  sentry  brought
                                                    word  to  the  Colonel  that  there  were  Zulus  upon  that  ridge,  and  that  they 
                                                   seemed  to  be  running  away.  This  we  now  see  was  a  ruse  on  the  part  of 
                                                   the  Zulus  to  get  possession  of  the  camp.  The  Colonel  questioned  the  sentry
                                                   as  to  the  number  of  the  enemy,  and  was  told  that  they  were  about  400  strong.
                                                   He  at  once  sent  out  six  scouts  in  all  directions  to  find  out  whether  any  larger 
                                                   army  was  at  hand,  as n othing  had  been  seen  or  heard  of  such  by  anyone 
                                                   previously  belonging  to  the  camp”.
This was his second good move sending scouts out to see if the a larger Zulu force was present. We now there was 2 large Zulu forces within 4 miles from camp the, one Trooper Barker spoted and the 5,000 moving behind Isandlwana confirmed by those on Mkwene which Higginson reported this to Durnford himself the other instance was when he was with Davies as he was leaving Pulliene tent " Colonel Durford joined us again about 10:15am. A native spy came in and reported in my hearing to Colonel Durnford that he had seen a great many of the enemy on the left of the camp some distance off, saying he thought it numbered 6,000" Knowing this he still left the camp in a weaken state, He even had the gall the pressure Pulliene to give him some of the imperial troops thankfully Melvill step in otherwise you would of seen many more of the British dead out of camp.
Also Durnford was so head strong he left camp without waiting for those scouts he sent out to report to him.  It is my belief that the Zulu lured Durnford out testimony indicates this.

4/ Pulleine for not preparing a battle square which would improve his chances of saving the camp, Pulleine new early on in the battle he was in trouble and he was out of his depth.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 8:07 am

The question of a laager always interests me. During the Great Trek the wagons carrying all the family's good's would be drawn into the circle, brush cut to pile between the wheels and so create a safe haven for the evening or a couple of days. The wagons were never needed for other eventuallities so stayed where they had been placed untill the decision to move on to the next camp was made.
It wasnt the British way. Wagons were moved back and forward along the line of supply on a daily basis often arriving late evenings for offloading and returning the next morning so the availability for use as a shelter wasnt as pronounced.
With over 1400 men in the camp more than one laager would have to be constructed. The time required to do this, I believe, just wasnt there.
Instead the British had a defence system, advanced posts for early warning patrols during the days to advise of enemy movements, a system of spy's. In short a good intelligence gathering mechanism. Once warned the traditional defence formations could be brought into being, and there were a number that could be used. The backs to the wall, in this case the mountain. The right terrain, possibly grouped on Amatutshane and then the Cavalry receiving square. Elsewhere there are descriptions of its formation and effectiveness. With iSandlwana at least two squares could have been put to good use basically either end of the camp. As long as there was plenty of ammunition the zulus would have taken a fearfull hammering, the losses in the camp would quite possibly have been minimal.
So in highlighting the question of who was to blame, and I strongly believe that collective responsibility would be in order, one should look at the defensive pattern devised by Lord Chelmsford and so rigidly applied by Henry Pulleine.
But still the battle itself wouldnt have got to that point if Dartnell had done his job properly

Just some food for thought.

PS Peter I spent quite a bit of time with the Gurkha's in Tidworth and came across them in Sarawak. Possibly our paths crossed
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 8:14 am

Quote :
Durnford are you ready Frank and Kate Durnford gets a double serve of my trifle

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peter@zuluwars



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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 8:26 am

Very possible Frank, as I was commanding the Gurkha Independent Parachute Regiment ay the time

in Borneo and Sarawak. Exiting times indeed fending off the Indonesians and mosquitoes !

Peter
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 8:28 am

Hi Pete
I was attached to 3rd Para then.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 8:28 am

Inky your a nasty man Shocked
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 9:02 am

Frank would you like my trifle recipe ?
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 9:26 am

Further to my initial reply to Peter's question.

Who ultimately was responsible for putting all the key players, Durnford, Dartnell, Pulleine etc in their respective positions that morning?
Lord Chelmsford.


For a brief moment during the battle when Durnford's men are extended alongside Pope's company we get a possible inkling of what the firing line could have looked like had Durnford stayed in the camp and then deployed.
It didn't help matters. They still would have been outflanked both on their right and by the right horn behind them.


Something that also tends to get forgotten is Chelmsford didn't just strip his camp he also stripped No2 column of its commander, best troops and artillery.Good job they weren't attacked that morning. Another bad decision.

The square idea is interesting and I have often wondered when you see how the British retreated to the nek why some of them didn't form a rallying square round one of the ammunition wagons, perhaps not 2nd Battalions but certainly 1st Battalions if it was stationed behind their tents near the nek. They could have held out much longer but what about water supplies and the Zulus picking up Martini's and firing back?
Chelmsford doesn't leave the camp in a defensible condition when he leaves but then after receiving Pulleines 8.05 despatch tells Alan to instruct Pulleine to entrench the camp. I'm sure when Pulleine received that instruction he probably, with an incredulous look in his eye, glanced round at the large sprawling camp and thought "WHAT!!"


Alan Gardner had a front row seat in both camps that morning. He was out with Chelmsford, he was by Pulleines side, he was party to all the reports that came in, he spoke to Durnford. He was there.
We were not
He witnessed the behaviors and actions of all the key players that morning.
We didn't.
He was an experienced Victorian soldier and staff officer of 19 years service.
We are not.

As a loner who spoke his mind and the only 14th Hussar out there he had no regimental loyalties or reputations to protect.

Despite stating personally 'I like Lord C. very much' he still blamed him for the disaster.

Thats enough for me.
Kate Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 9:42 am

Kate I think most of the Officers and Men said that they "liked" Chelmsford. But as you rightly question his professional abilities do come up for question.
Im sure there is a Zulu statement that mentions men getting into a group with the wounded in the centre. I have no doubt Weekend warrior will turn that up.
In addition to the 1st and 2nd ammunition wagons there was also the wagon packed ready to go out to Chelmsford that would I imagine have been parked in a clear space near the track ready in case it was called for.
Ive often wondered why did he choose the 2nd Battalion and not the 1st? Seeing he was going out and dragging along the column commander one would think he would have left the better Battalion Commander, Degaucher, behind and taken Pullein along tucked under his wing?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 am

Inky
A thought for you. Ive never been able to see the point of the right horn trundling for miles untill the got to the top of the Manzimnyama before turning down the valley onto the track. Half way down the slope is a re entrant, it leads into the tributary that runs down into the Manzimnyama. To be thats the more logical route, puts them in a much better position. Its also the place where i discovered the additional 5 cairns. If they did use that route it is a lot closer to the back of the mountain and could conceivably be regarded as a threat to the left rear of the troops on the Tahalane, Essex etc. Something for you to consider.
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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi

Posts : 212
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 56
Location : MELBOURNE

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 11:41 am

Frank 
Can you please post these photos or email them to me please maybe its something to consider

This location you mentioned Half way down the slope is a re entrant, it leads into the tributary that runs down into the Manzimnyama
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 11:59 am

E mailed. Enjoy.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7925
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 12:52 pm

Kate when I said most of the men liked Chelmsford I would need to exclude William Whitelock Lloyd who was pretty vitriolithic in his comments.
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mel1879



Posts : 2
Join date : 2010-05-07

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PostSubject: Re: Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene   Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 28, 2021 1:09 pm

Hi All. Well, this is my first post on this forum so here goes.

I have been interested in the pre battle movements of the British and Zulu movements for many years, especially since the publication of Ron and Peter's TM5H. Inspired by this I visited the "x" area with the late Rob Gerrard some years ago. It really is an eye opener when you walk the ground isn't it?

There's been some fascinating theories talked about here and I really need to get back to SA and revisit all the places mentioned in detail by Inky, Frank and Kate.

I think that Kate's original question has led to a very interesting discussion.

Frank, am I correct in thinking that you are about to publish a book on this very topic?

Peter Q, it's great to see you back on a discussion forum and I hope that you are keeping well? You bring back great memories of the mammoth discussions we all used to have on the RDVC site.

Regards
Mel
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