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» 4 'Allens' in the casualty roll listed as having died at Isandlwana.
24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptyWed Mar 09, 2022 11:04 am by Julian Whybra

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The Battle of Isandlwana: From above
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 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA

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Julian Whybra
yexley1938
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yexley1938




Posts : 9
Join date : 2021-11-28

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptyFri Dec 03, 2021 11:13 am

Hi - my first post here!

I have recently become a member of our local Gentlemen's Society and amongst many of their antiquities and artefacts, they have an extensive medal collection.

I noticed a South African medal with 1879 clasp named to 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt.  Reported to be an Islandlwana casualty.

Most of the medals, unfortunately, have been poorly researched and not very well documented, so I am keen to know more.  Do any of you good folk out there know anything at all about him and his service?

Any info will be passed on to the society and displayed with his medal.

Many thanks
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2862
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptyFri Dec 03, 2021 12:18 pm

HALL Benjamin – Private – 25B/1527 – 2nd/24th G coy
Born at Berry Hill, Nr. Coleford, Royal Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire
No trace of a claim for his effects.
Enlisted c. February 1878. Attested at Brecon, Brecknockshire 4/2/1878.
South Africa Medal 1877-8-9 with clasp 1879. Issued 12/1/1882 under A.G.L.102. Held by the Gentleman’s Society Museum Spalding, Lincolnshire, England.
Mentioned in a letter by 25B/1605 Lance/Corporal C. Frowen of G Company dated 2/2/1879.
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yexley1938




Posts : 9
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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptyFri Dec 03, 2021 1:24 pm

Julian - Thank you so much for your response! Much appreciated.

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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2862
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptyFri Dec 03, 2021 2:22 pm

...and of course kia 22.1.1879 Isandhlwana.  Frowen's letter can be found in the Gloucester Journal 29.3.1879.
I hope you have the medal insured - it's worth a bob or two!!


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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yexley1938




Posts : 9
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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptyFri Dec 03, 2021 2:34 pm

Who is Frowen? And do you know what the letter says?

I have no idea about insurance - it's kept at the museum with others in the strong room. Should this medal be insured individually - and, if so, would you know its approximate value?

Thanks again
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2862
Join date : 2011-09-12
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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptyFri Dec 03, 2021 5:00 pm

Re Frowen I can send you a copy. Pm me your e-mail address.
Re insurance, July 2021 prices for medals were between £6,000 and £8,000 for kias depending on rank, bars, and significance in the battle for 24th soldiers. Others might like to come in here with better estimates as this is not my specific field of interest.
The 'Frowen' newspaper was in the Gloucester Journal.
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yexley1938




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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptyFri Dec 03, 2021 5:10 pm

Hi Julian

I'm the new boy so I'm not allowed to send pm's until 7 days have passed!
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90th

90th


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Location : Melbourne, Australia

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Pte B.Hall 2/24th Regt KIA    24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 04, 2021 12:05 am

Hi JW and Yexley1938
Medals to those KIA at Isandlwana generally fetch 8K plus nowadays , the Medal Yearbook 2020 has Isandlwana Casualties at 9-12 K , Isandlwana Escapee 10-12K , Rorke's Drift Participant 40-80 K ( RD quote dependant on who , how well known and documented was the individual was during the attack etc ) , as you mentioned Julian the same will apply to those KIA at Isandlwana .
90th agree
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2862
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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 04, 2021 10:48 am

Wow, 9-12 thou - I hadn't realized prices had gone up so much. I don't think I (~or my wife) could be persuaded to buy my relative's one now if ever it should appear on the market.
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yexley1938




Posts : 9
Join date : 2021-11-28

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 04, 2021 11:05 am

Hi Julian

I will hopefully pm you after tomorrow regarding Frowen. Only yesterday I was handling Pte. Halls medal and feeling very privileged to do so. The next best thing to owning one.

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Julian Whybra




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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 04, 2021 12:58 pm

yexley
OK. To give credit where credit's due I believe it was Frederic Bomy who found/re-discovered Frowen's letter about 5 years ago. No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
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yexley1938




Posts : 9
Join date : 2021-11-28

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptyFri Dec 10, 2021 1:07 pm

Hi Julian

I have just found some information at the Gentlemans society regarding Frowen . Is it true he died at the Hospital at Rorkes Drift of disease about the same time as his letter would have appeared in the Gloucester journal ?

Alan

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Julian Whybra




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Location : Billericay, Essex

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptyFri Dec 10, 2021 4:02 pm

yexley
FROWEN, 25B/1605 Lance-Corporal Courtney, 2nd/24th G Company (from 31.1.1879)
Born in Coleford, Gloucestershire (in the Forest of Dean), a former miner at the Waterloo Pit, Brierley.
Died from fever at Fort Melville, Rorke’s Drift, Natal, South Africa 11.3.1879 fever and buried there. No record of a claim for his effects.
Enrolled as a member of the Coleford Company Rifle Volunteers. Enlisted in the 24th at Monmouth, 2.7.1878. Attested at Brecon 5.7.1878. Arrived in South Africa from 25th Brigade Depot Brecon 21/1/1879. Appointed Lance-Corporal 23.1.1879. Posted to G Company 31.1.1879.
South Africa Medal 1877-8-9 with clasp 1879 but there's no trace of issue.
Name appears on the Rorke’s Drift Cemetery Memorial, Natal.
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90th

90th


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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: 1527 Pte Hall 2/24th Regt KIA    24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 11, 2021 3:23 am

Hi All
Unfortunately there are no graves at Fort Melville , not that I've noticed anyway .
90th
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John Young

John Young


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Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 11, 2021 8:01 am

Where was Fort Melville, was it close to Fort Melvill?

JY
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yexley1938




Posts : 9
Join date : 2021-11-28

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 11, 2021 9:18 am

Julian
Many thanks for the information.A sad story.

Yexley. (Alan)

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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2862
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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 11, 2021 11:35 am

JY
Slip of the proverbial finger. Correction, Fort MELVILL.
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John Young

John Young


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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 11, 2021 1:47 pm

Julian,

Got to keep you on your toes!

JY
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 2862
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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 11, 2021 2:26 pm

Merry Christmas John.
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John Young

John Young


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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySat Dec 11, 2021 2:51 pm

Julian,

And to you & yours!

JY
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Kenny




Posts : 465
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 10:51 am

FROWEN (or Frowan or Frower) was probably buried in the copse on the other side of Buffalo River from Rorke's Drift. If you cross the bridge at Rorke's Drift going towards Isandlwana, then turn right you see the copse about 300 mtrs away. It is directly opposite to the Rorke's Drift Hotel. There are number of civilian graves which have headstones, but the military ones are not marked.
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Julian Whybra




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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 10:55 am

Martin
Is that marked as one of A-D on p. 64 of Laband and Thomspon's Field Guide?
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90th

90th


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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Pte B.Hall 2/24th Regt KIA    24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 11:09 am

Hi Kenny
Yes I've been there ,the Military Graves have the later Boer War style Grave markers from memory .
90th Salute
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gardner1879

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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 12:37 pm

We've had this exact discussion haven't we Gary when visiting that grave site.
The reasoning why you would make all the effort to take a body across the river to bury it seems to rule out 1879 AZW bodies being buried there.
More likely any military ones are  from Fort Northampton on the other side of the road.
This was occupied between June and November 1884 by men of the 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment. On the 14th August a detachment from the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons arrived at the fort and on the 9th September a company of mounted infantry and 2 Gatling Guns were also deployed there to strengthen the garrison.
Any military graves will more likely be from the fort or a later conflict.

This is the site in 2015
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Kate Very Happy


Last edited by gardner1879 on Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kenny




Posts : 465
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 12:44 pm

'Fever' as the cause of death, meant that the bodies of military personnel were to be buried away from the camp - remember that 2/24th remained at RD (Fort Bromhead) for the next 6 weeks.
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gardner1879

gardner1879


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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 12:54 pm

Kenny was just editing my post adding details of the MI and Gatling Guns when you replied.

Thats a long old trek Kenny to carry a diseased body from Fort Bromhead scratch

Look how close the burials at say Kambula are to that fort.
And I appreciate they were besieged but Pearson's force didn't cross the river at the bottom of the valley to bury their dead, they put them on the slope nearest the fort.
Kate Very Happy
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Kenny




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24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA Empty
PostSubject: Re: 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA   24th - 1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA EmptySun Dec 12, 2021 1:01 pm

Perhaps, JY could help - I know there are images of unmarked graves close to RD before the cemetery was established.
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1527 Pte. B Hall 2/24th Regt. KIA
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