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 Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January

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gardner1879

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyMon Jan 31, 2022 10:49 am

Whilst reading about Dartnell's movements on the 21st of this month, this little piece of information had me intregued.
When Lieut Henry A. Walsh 1/13th takes the blankets, tea suger etc out to Dartnell's men on the evening of the 21st he also brought news that another patrol had run into a small party of Zulus earlier in the day near Siphezi mountain and shots had been exchanged.

Reading between the lines his quote seems to suggest the patrol went out to Siphezi, exchanged some shots and then returned to the camp to report what had happened or else how whould Walsh have known. Siphezi is approx 7 miles out from the camp which is a fair old distance.
I thought perhaps Trooper Parson's, ADCs, Buller or Gosset could have told the camp of Dartnell's skirmishing and then Walsh merely related old news back to where it originated but it seems they were sent back before any shots were fired.

I know Lord Chelmsford was moving around the eastern plain througout the day but cannot find any reports of him being fired on or engaging the enemy.
He did go up onto the Nyoni ridge and looked from a high point across the plateau where two vedettes had been posted earlier in the day. The vedettes reported seeing a small party of mounted Zulus about 14 miles away but there was no record of shots being fired.

Does anyone know any more about this 'lost patrol' and who could have been in command?

Kate Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyMon Jan 31, 2022 12:35 pm

Lieutenant Edward Browne. VC. Ran into a party of Zulu who were covering the advance of the main Zulu impi, East of Siphezi. They fires a few shots and were then driven of.
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90th

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Lt Walsh and the Siphezi patrol 21st Jan    Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyMon Jan 31, 2022 1:12 pm

Hi Kate & Frank
Yes Frank spot on , Browne and his command the 1st Sqn Imp Mtd Inf nearly ran into the zulu army , but were chased off by Zibhebhu and his screening force .
90th Salute
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Frank Allewell

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyMon Jan 31, 2022 1:20 pm

Kate the impi was en route from Siphezi to Ngwebeni when the Zulu screen saw Browne and charge him forcing away from the impi in transit.
This is the aprox area, from the base of Siphezi the track to Ngwebeni extreme right and just on the horizon off centre is iSandlwana. I Hope this is the patrol your thinking of.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Frank
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Frank Allewell

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyMon Jan 31, 2022 1:22 pm

Sorry 90th, posts crossed. Salute
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyMon Jan 31, 2022 2:44 pm

Kate
Pte. Murch IMI wrote of this incident in a letter home dated 14.2.1879 published in the Western Times 2.4.1879:  
“21st – This morning, Captain Brown [sic] with four men, myself one, had been reconnoitring towards the Isipezi Hill; we saw several large bodies of men moving, and when returning came across eight mounted Zulus and 30 on foot; they attempted to prevent us from returning to camp, so we had a very pretty little engagement, ending in the death of two Zulus and two horses, without any casualty on our side.  The Zulu fire was very sharp and galling.”
Although not a member of this reconnaissance, Lieut. Coghill, Orderly Officer to Col. Glyn, wrote in his diary which was recovered from the battlefield:
“Browne with 4 mounted men went out towards the Isipezi mountain and on his way home an attempt was made to cut him off by some 30 men on foot and 8 on horseback.  Some shots were exchanged, one of the enemy killed another badly wounded and Browne and his men returned safely to camp.”
See Studies in the Zulu War Vol.V, pp. 19-20 where this episode is described with other references.
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gardner1879

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyTue Feb 01, 2022 7:39 am

Thanks chaps.

I thought the authors claim of Milne seeing Zulu horsemen 14 miles away was a bit extreme (even if he was using his telescope) so cross referenced your Volume V Julian with Milne's report in Keith Smith's book and its "14 Zulu horsemen watching us at a distance of about 4 miles"

Pete for some reason I don't seem to be receiving notifications.
Kate Very Happy


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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyTue Feb 01, 2022 7:41 am

Cancel the last Pete, I've just have 4 notifications all come through together.

Great picture Frank Salute
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Frank Allewell

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyTue Feb 01, 2022 7:59 am

Yeh maybe I need to do something with all these pictures? And no rude comments from Australia please. Shocked Very Happy
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Julian Whybra




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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyTue Feb 01, 2022 11:18 am

Kate
Yes the two incidents were quite separate and at different times along with other instances of observations (one at least still a mystery) which occurred on the 21st.
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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Lt Walsh and the Siphezi patrol 21st Jan    Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyTue Feb 01, 2022 12:47 pm

Hi Frank
Joker From Moi ? , never ! hahahahahaha
90th Very Happy Salute
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John Young

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyTue Feb 01, 2022 2:49 pm

Frank,

At least you can post photographs, unlike some folk.

JY
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90th

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Lt Walsh and the Siphezi patrol 21st Jan    Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyWed Feb 02, 2022 3:57 am

JY , Yep that'd be me ! hahahahahahaha Very Happy Joker Joker Joker
90th agree
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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyWed Feb 02, 2022 10:28 am

Great Subject Kate

It was this instance that got me thinking about screens on the 21st with Lieutenant Browne and when I was reading Trooper Barker testimony concerning those minutes before he discovered that Zulu impi, it was one of those strategies the Zulu used so well in the Isandlwana campaign during the 21st and 22nd
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Frank Allewell

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyWed Feb 02, 2022 11:17 am

All with a rather brilliant General called Zibhebhu. Managed to break his hand crossing the Mzinyathi and spent the night of the 22nd stealing cattle in Natal.
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gardner1879

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 03, 2022 7:40 am

Thanks Inky
Interesing how Lord Chelmsford initially refused to reinforce Dartnell on the afternoon of the 21st and yet changes his mind the next day scratch
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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 03, 2022 9:12 am

The balance of 'evidence' had simply swung too far the other way suggesting that Dartnell's position was unsafe if not reinforced and that LC might lose his chance of getting the pitched battle he wanted.
Little did he know!
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Frank Allewell

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 03, 2022 9:51 am

A point to consider about Chelmsfords decision to reinforce Dartnell would be that out with that patrol was, some would say, the cream of Natal society's youth. If Chelmsford had not rode out to 'rescue' them and they had been destroyed.............. remember how Durnford was virtually ostracized. I doubt if Chelmsford would have avoided the utter condemnation.
Tar and feather would have been a minor option.
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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 03, 2022 12:08 pm

And then poor old Dartnell would have been the scapegoat!!!
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Frank Allewell

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 03, 2022 1:24 pm

Poor old Dartnell, Ha!
Consider, If he was facing the zulu army what on earth did he think he was going to do with them? He should have been high tailing back to camp from 3 oclock that afternoon. Then the 22nd would have had a totally different ending, Chelmsford would have been a hero, Durnford would still be writing to his mom.
Just a thought, 😀
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gardner1879

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 03, 2022 1:36 pm

Or would Chelmsford have severly chastised Dartnell for losing contact with the enemy and then set off back to Mangeni the next morning anyway? After all he also has Browne's report.
They don't find anyone,the camp gets hit as per actual events and Dartnell is blamed for the disaster for losing contact with the Zulu on the 21st.
If Darnell is left back in the camp in disgrace with the NNC, Chelmsford might not have called Durnford up which means the camp might have been even weaker!
Suspect
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Frank Allewell

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Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 03, 2022 1:54 pm

Dartnell would have been obeying orders.
From the directions Dartnell was 'attacked' Chelmsfords would have had a better idea where the attack was coming from, if indeed there were to be an attack. Not from the South/South East as he expected. So mounted patrols in force, fast moving in the direction Browne reported and to the north.
All the imperial forces in one place! Could have been an interesting day in the sun!☠😎
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 03, 2022 2:26 pm

What if...what if...
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySun Feb 06, 2022 12:27 pm

What if, what if, what if.....

What if Lord Chelmsford had stayed in Pietermaritzburg and Glyn had taken number three column in?
Now theres a 'what if' worth discussing.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySun Feb 06, 2022 2:27 pm

Or better still, what if Cetshwayo had just paid the fine like a good boy and they could all have gone home...
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 10, 2022 8:13 am

Morning Julian in your quote below

Kate Yes the two incidents were quite separate and at different times along with other instances of observations (one at least still a mystery) which occurred on the 21st. wrote:

Which was the "mystery" observation?
Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 10, 2022 9:03 am

Symons wrote (Feb-Apr 1879):
“Towards evening of the 21st January, the General was informed that there was reason to believe that large bodies of the enemy were collecting behind the hills on the left front of the Camp. Colonel Glyn suggested that scouts & patrols should be sent out in the morning to examine into the truth of this intelligence. It was not, however, accepted at Headquarters, and no attempts were made to reconnoitre these hills, or the country beyond.”
Symons’s words echoed, and are given further credence by, those of Col. Crealock in a statement of 9th February 1879, which formed a supplement to the evidence given to the Court of Inquiry. He stated:
“It was evident to me that the Zulu forces were in our neighbourhood and the General had decided on the evening of the 21st to make a reconnaissance to our left front.”
Whatever the truth behind Crealock’s statement, subsequent events changed Chelmsford’s opinion. Symons’s informant was unnamed.
Pertinently, W. H. Drummond, Chelmsford’s Chief of Intelligence, wrote:
“Beside this [referring to Lieut. Browne’s skirmish], one or two mounted bodies of Zulus were seen hovering about, particularly in our left front, and such as thought at all on the subject anticipated fighting on the morrow.”
Plenty of Intelligence regarding Zulu movements was received during the morning and day-hours of the 21st but the origin of Symons’s intriguing remark regarding information received in the evening and what precisely it referred to remains unclear.
There's the 'mystery'.
For references see p. 19 Studies in the ZW vol. V.
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PostSubject: Lt Walsh and the Siphezi patrol 21st Jan    Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 10, 2022 12:47 pm

Hi Julian
I have a copy of the Fred Symon's Diary , unfortunately... in this narrative from this book after arriving at Isandlwana... and I quote '' The ground upon which the Carbineers set up their patrol tents was very swampy , and it was necessary to dig deep trenches round the tents which was soon done & Jack & I packed away our things in anticipation of a lengthy stay . We had been reconoitring during the afternoon to the left front of the camp at about 10 miles distance , but the only native man we saw was a deformed one with a hand like a babbon . He knew , he said , nothing of the movements of the zulu army ; and we were very tired & glad to get back to our mess & to rest '' .
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 10, 2022 1:57 pm

90th
Apologies, I should have made myself clear.  The Symons I was quoting was CAPTAIN William Penn Symons's 'An account of the battle of Isandhlwana and Defence of Rorke’s Drift' at Brecon, acc. no. A1949.46 (6/A/4.2), not TROOPER Symons of 'diary' fame.
Note too that Trooper Symons's scouting trip took place during the afternoon.  The information that Captain Symons referred to, was received by LC during the evening (and its origin is still a mystery).
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 10, 2022 3:19 pm

Thanks Julian and Gary for the info.

There is this in one of Chelmsford's letters written at iSandlwana dated the 21st January :-

"..No3 column moved here yesterday without much difficulties. We fortunatly had a fine day and did not find many bad places on the road. One nasty swamp we were able to turn with a little expenditure of labour. Half a battalion 2/24th was obliged to halt short of the camp owing to the oxen being fatigued. Otherwise all got in well.

At 1pm I started off to reconnoitre what is called the Zulu stronghold which is almost ten or twelve miles of here.
Our road lay over a hard rolling plain, cut up at long intervals by deep watercourses which however will not be difficult to get waggons over. It ran at first almost north, then north east and finally due east when we got round the Malakata range (vide Durnford's map) The so called stronghold is a precipitous valley with krantzes on each side in which there are caves. The river which runs through it tumbles over a precipice at the upper end, and the valley is thus closed in on three sides. the fourth opens out into lateral valleys some three miles down and the main valley continues on until it reaches the Buffalo river, close under the Indeni bush.
No sign of Zulus or cattle could be discovered. We mounted up on to the Malakata range which is fairly level and open, and from the different spurs we could see a long distance into the main valley. A few kraals were visible and from some we saw a few women running away with bundles on their heads, but otherwise the country was deserted. Some natives say the inhabitants have gone to the king, others say they are in the Induni bush. I have sent two parties of mounted men this morning to explore the country more thoroughly than  I was able to do yesterday (my underlining) and I have sent Lonsdale and his two battalions of Native Contingent round the west side of the Malakata range with orders to climb up to the top and make a position with the mounted men"

Is it me or is this a bit confusing?
Has Chelmsford got his compass directions mixed up here?
Is he setting off on his reconnassance but then going back in his writing describing his journey into camp and the subsequent valley or if his road of his reconnassance ran north, north east then east that would put him up over the Inyoni ridge. scratch
I know they were up on the Malakata range on the 20th and 21st as Crealock produced a couple of lovely watercolours of Gamdana's kraal and Mangani, so is Chelmsford describing that journey but then he wouldn't be travelling north...
The two mounted patrols could be Dartnell and Browne. There is no mention of a third going over onto the Nqutu plateau.
scratch
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 10, 2022 4:27 pm

It's not you. LC's compass bearings are certainly awry (perhaps no-one bothered to bring a compass and he was guessing?) From the description, it sounds like he crossed the plain in front of the camp then turned south-eastish to the eastern end of the Malakathas.
As for the line stating he sent out two parties of mounted men, a reader cannot know to what he is referring. He doesn't say which 'country' was to be explored by them. The only clue is that he was in that country on the previous day. The 'country' could be the Nqutu or it could be the Malakthas; the parties could be Dartnell and Browne but, equally, they might not be - because Browne was back about midday and Dartnell stayed out sending messages back which related to the Zulus in front of him i.e. at the eastern end of the Malakathas.
Since Symons specifically wrote that information reached LC in the EVENING and related to Zulus 'behind the hills on the left front of the camp', it can have come from neither Browne nor Dartnell and logically MUST have come a third mounted party unknown to us or just possibly from mounted vedettes up on the escarpment who were ranging about a little in the landscape beyond the call of duty.
Continue scratching your head...
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 10, 2022 4:33 pm

Kate
There is another clue re The 'Mystery' Patrol (sounds like a good title for a piece of music by Leroy Anderson).
Symons must have got this information from someone who was aware of it at first hand and told him about it afterwards. That raises the possibility that it might have come from one of the five Imperial officers who escaped or, if the information came from a vedette, then from the (surviving) vedette himself, or if it came from a member of a mounted patrol, from one of its members (a mounted infantryman?)
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 10, 2022 6:09 pm

Phew glad its not me.
If you change 'north' to 'south' it makes sense. Hes dropping south down onto the Malakatas and then heading east along towards Halakazi.

We know he was on the Malakata range on the 20th, do we have evidence that he went onto the Nqutu plateau as well on the 20th?
If not then the the only country to be explored from yesterday would have to be Malakata. Also when he says that Lonsdale's contingent was to 'make a position with the mounted men' it sort of implies its the mounted men from the sentence before.

In his letter to Frere on the 23rd he states that:-
"On Tuesday 21st Inst. the Natal Mounted Police and the Mounted Corps under Captain Shepstone'command together with two battalions of the Native Contingent under Commendant Lonsdale proceeded to search the district occupied by "Matyan"

Its intersting that he distinguishes between the two mounted units which could then be the two  in his 21st letter.
Doesn't solve things though because if this is the case he doesn't mention Browne at all and if he doesn't mention Browne  who else is he not mentioning * sigh *
scratch
From one of the Imperial Officers now that is an interesting idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 10, 2022 6:52 pm

Further to my above
Clery states that at about 1pm on the 20th:-

"I saw the general proceed with the mounted squadron in a south eastern direction from the ground elected for the camp - I inferred that the General was going out on a reconnaissance - which was the case.............. it was as well as I can remember  between 6 oclock and 7 o'clock that evening before the General returned from the reconnaissance he had been engaged on"
(Enclosure 3 in WO36)

Is this enough time one wonders for him to travel along the Malakata range and then scout the Nqutu?

****** Update to the above*******
On page 75 of Zululand at War 1879 Sonia Clarke writes
"On the 21st January Chelmsford deatiled a force, consisting of sixteen companies of the Natal native Contingent under Lonsdale as well as most of the Natal police and half the mounted volunteers under Dartnell, to reconnoitre the broken ground to the south east of the camp. Later on the same day Chelmsford despatched two smaller patrols, one of which he accompanied"

We know he didn't go out with Browne but he did go out, so there are the two patrols.

In another of his letters dated the 17th February Clery states:-
"Hitherto the General had made several reconnaissances to considerable distances, but apparently no trace of the enemy in any force was found"
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyThu Feb 10, 2022 11:18 pm

I think the key thing here is the fact that information reached LC in the evening.  The mystery patrol that brought the information in must have got back in the evening.
Let's suppose that it was an MI patrol, like Browne's or indeed Walsh's.  Walsh's men, having been out to Dartnell and back with blankets and biscuits, would have remained in the camp.  Both they and their horses would've been exhausted.  Interestingly, Walsh accompanied LC on the morning of the 22nd.
Supposing there HAD been a similar patrol getting back late on the 21st.  Men and horses would've been exhausted and would probably also have remained in camp (though maybe not their officer).
On the 22nd there were 30 IMI in camp.  Ten were Gardner's escort; some were Walsh's men; perhaps the others came from this mystery patrol.  Their officer might have been, at a stretch, someone like Lieut. Newnham Davis.  It might explain why there were 30 IMI in camp in total.


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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyFri Feb 11, 2022 5:07 am

Kate, do you have the full transcript of the Chelmsford 21JAN letter? Or the source for the Drummond account?

Julian, Newnham-Davis may be a stretch for this patrol OIC. He made every last exploit at Isandlwana quite clear in his series of short stories under the ghastly pseudonym 'Dwarf of Blood' or something equally horrible. The night of the 21st seems to have been reserved in persuading poor Capt. Bradstreet to take over as OIC for the videttes so Newnham-Davis could go out with LC.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyFri Feb 11, 2022 8:55 am

Mike
Yes, that's true, Newnham Davis did.  Then ask yourself why.  If he'd been out on a late evening patrol he would have been obliged to remain in camp the following day to rest.  Instead he spent the night (not the evening) persuading Bradstreet to swap places with him.
Note that I'm not saying this was the case, it's merely a suggestion.  After all, if there HAD been a patrol, someone had to lead it.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyFri Feb 11, 2022 9:54 am

I'll keep digging but I think with what we know I'm more inclined to think that the information that came to back to LC  was from a vedette rather than a patrol.

When LC receives the news Glyn "suggests scouts and patrols should be sent out in the morning to examine into the truth or otherwise of this intellegence" (Symons)

The way I read this is that the news was not brought back by a patrol but needed to be investigated by a patrol.

However, as far as I know, (and I'm quite happy to be corrected) the only evidence we have of LC receiving information that evening is from William Penn Symons and I'm always suspicious of his motives.
Without going down a seperate rabbit hole on this thread, he was influenced by certain officers and had the reputation of his regiment to consider when writing his accounts.
Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyFri Feb 11, 2022 1:58 pm

Kate
You make a valid point.  Whether a vedette or a patrol, someone informed Symons.  He was too much of a gentleman to invent something and from the rest of his writing he seems to ensure corroboration before he puts it into his account.  (Remember who he was writing it for and who saw it!  QV herself!)
Patience and more digging, Watson!


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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptyFri Feb 11, 2022 7:45 pm

There's a really weird secondhand anecdote from a Trooper Arthur Adams of the Buffalo Border Guard (No actual man by that name served, although two men with the surname Adams did) that refers to videttes seeing large numbers of enemy forces...

"He told me that he and his half-section, when on vedette duty early on January 22, saw from a high hill overlooking a deep valley, the Zulu Army, which they estimated to be between 25,000 and 30,000, being divided into two ‘horns’ to surround the camp at Isandhlwana. This is the usual Zulu method of attack.
They immediately returned to camp and reported to an Imperial officer, who was still in bed in his tent. This man pooh-poohed the idea that the Zulus would attack the camp.
Adams said that when he and his half-section realized that practically no heed was being taken of what they had seen and reported, they made up their minds that as soon as the Zulus attacked they would take the first opportunity to make a dash to escape. They did this together with others of the Border Guard."

I've always dismissed this for a number of reasons- The BBG didn't have FLIR or other night-vision capabilities, no Arthur Adams served in the BBG, etc... But just perhaps this is a badly garbled secondhand retelling of an account from one of the videttes, with the wrong date given.
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PostSubject: Lt Walsh and the Siphezi patrol 21st Jan    Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 12:56 am

Hi WW
Yes I've read that statement previously from the enigmatic Trp Arthur Adams !!.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 3:08 am

There was an Arthur Adams, tad young though.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 3:33 am

Probably a good idea for him to avoid the kitchen area and butcher hooks behind the camps.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 8:37 am

Arthur Adams! A well and truly baseless claim!
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:11 am

Unless there was a mistaken identity in the report, read William for Arthur.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Lt Walsh and the Siphezi patrol 21st Jan    Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:18 am

Hi Frank
Yes could well have been a mistake in the writers identity , I think I have that report from Talana was it ?? .
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:39 am

First time Gary agree Its a reprint from the Natal Witness, date unclear, either 17/09/1913, 1903, or 1953.


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PostSubject: Lt Walsh and the Siphezi patrol 21st Jan    Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:41 am

Frank Salute Salute Very Happy Very Happy agree agree
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 12:54 pm

The Newmarch article re 'Arthur Adams' should be treated with a good deal of suspicion.
The words of David Doig, Newmarch's maternal uncle, I think may be taken as fact and of value. The words of Arthur Adams, whom Newmarch met later, are a different kettle of fish.
Arthur Adams claimed to overhear the Durnford-Pulleine conversation while waiting to receive instructions for his half-section to go on vedette duty YET later says he was on vedette EARLY in the morning of the 22nd. (I note here that this has no bearing on the reports of Zulus Symons referred to on the evening of the 21st.)
No other survivor wrote of an island in the Buffalo where a fugitive might hide while crossing. I don't think there is an island there when the river is in full flood.
Adams says that he rode to warn Rorke’s Drift AND was one of the relieving party.
He saw all, was omnipresent, and assigns himself a critical role in the day’s events.
No, this man is a liar. And not a convincing one. He knows the country and he knows enough of real events to concoct a role for himself in it. And that is all.
Lastly he was NOT a member of the BBG.
I don't see how Newmarch could have mistaken the name 'Arthur' for 'William' though certainly some elements may have been 'borrowed' from William's account by 'Arthur'.
Poor Newmarch…so keen to collect the oral history of his Natal home…was in this case taken in completely.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi patrol of the 21st January   Lieut. Walsh and the Siphezi  patrol of the 21st January EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 2:55 pm

Julian, my thoughts exactly unless the story was wildly garbled during the secondhand retelling. Or third hand, if Arthur was (badly) retelling the story of a family member.
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