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Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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 Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers

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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 10:51 am

Frank
I agree. Barker has proven unreliable on too many occasions where detail is concerned.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 1:17 pm

Barker's account was written circa 1912. I don't place any level of infallibility with it; too much time had elapsed.

Kate, Barker says he saw Hayhow arrive a bit before fighting broke out, towards noon. The only way to make sense of the timing of this incident is if he was returning from IVO the Mangeni, roughly the same time as Gardner's group. Remember he doesn't say he SAW Hayhow subsequently dispatched back to Lord Chelmsford, only that he was told as much.

Alternatively Barker may be mistaken on the timing, of course.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 1:38 pm

Courtesy of Cam Simpson

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 1:52 pm

From the Cardiff Times.... no mention is made of Trooper Christian so the roster may well have inadvertently combined the two names.

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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 2:32 pm

Yes, these lists are taken out of context, which I suspect are both lists of the kia.  Hayhoe is misspelt (I'm sure the PMB memorial will have it right) and as previously mentioned there has been a conflation of Trpr. Christian's name with Hayhow.
I also checked birth and census records for Christian Hayhoe with zero results.
I'm afraid his name was not Christian, or, if it was, it won't be confirmed from this source!
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 3:26 pm

Barker mistaken on a timing? Surely Not Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Without replaying a scratched old record, I'm with Frank and Julian. Barker is not a reliable witness and we should not place too much importance on his account without considering all else around it.
(I can hear the furious rattle of pastry encrusted fingers on a keyboard:j: Joker Joker )
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 3:29 pm

Pastry? But it's Sunday! What's happened to the roast beef and Yorkshire pud!
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 4:59 pm

Was expecting a rapid defence of Braker by our baker from down under.

We had patridges for Sunday lunch which were lovely but served a bit later than usual as we had trouble getting them out the boxes as all the lids were screwed down. Joker Rolling Eyes
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 14, 2022 8:25 am

Your equivalent of part(ridg)ygate?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 14, 2022 9:25 am

Ours live in a fruit tree at the bottom of the garden
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 14, 2022 10:01 am

Weekend  Warrior 
You said Barker wrote his testimony in 1912 is there any hard evidence that it was 1912

Kate you said

Without replaying a scratched old record, I'm with Frank and Julian. Barker is not a reliable witness and we should not place too much importance on his account
 without considering all else around it.
(I can hear the furious rattle of pastry encrusted fingers on a keyboard:j: [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] )

Working with pastry on a Sunday not my idea of a good time, My second favorite Carbineer Barker, the only issue with his testimony is distances, Is he reliable ? The army he discovered did he see it ? Well if we had another witness confirming his sighting then the evidence will be stronger Trooper Hawkins who he mentions over and over again perished  that day.

I spent 3 years trying to locate this army Barker discovered and I am certain when others finally study my theory it will face a lot of criticism, because it sounds impossible thousands of Zulu moved under the noses of the videttes without being noticed but that is what happened.

Is there any hard evidence the discovery took place where the history books claim, is there eyewitness testimony stating that.

Mehlakazulu even confirms the location of the discovery and the circumstances, being under the Nquttu range.

 The Zulu regiments were all lying in the valley, I have mentioned { the Ngewbeni valley },  but the Umciityu made their appearance under the Nqutu range,  and were seen by the mounted men of the English forces , who made for the Umcityu , not seeing the main body of the army.  They fired, and all at once the main body of the Zulu army arose in every direction , on hearing the firing.  The attention of the English mounted troops was drawn to the few men who had exposed themselves under the range,  and before these mounted men knew where they were the main body of the Zulus got up and swarmed in every direction”



 The Nqutu range. is the same range of hills Barker sights this army at around 11am. A Zulu and Colonial confirms this



Itusi is the only possible location  being Barkers vidette post.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 14, 2022 11:09 am

Inki, my objections with Barker are, as Ive said, his ideas of time and distance. I do believe in his 'event' memory even though at times its a bit conflated. But you are so right in that when its confirmed by other sources we have to believe in it.
I really do look forward to seeing and reading your whole theory rather than the bits and pieces. And dont woryy about about the criticism, hell my book hasnt been released in the UK as yet and the amount of crap Im taking is scarey.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyMon Feb 14, 2022 4:13 pm

Aussie
Corroboration is all.
I must also add to your 'Is there any hard evidence that it was 1912?' the line: is there any hard evidence that it wasn't?
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 3:01 am

Good Morning Frank

Three years ago when I started researching the battle I thought it would be almost impossible to prove it from eyewitness testimony seeing we do not have many to work with. But 6 months after I discovered the location by chance after thinking Qwabi was Barkers vidette post. Barkers Distances concerning the discovery is spot on if you take Itusi as your starting point. He even warns Russel not to go up the ridge warning him in 30 minutes the ridge will be covered with Zulus just ask your self why he said that, simple because he knew what was on the other side of the ridge. Barker New or saw Raw and Roberts  move to Mkwene and knew what they where about to bump into a short Distance off.

Also Julian No one can prove the date of Barkers testimony, but if it was 1912 that would explain the issue he has with distances, remember there is a good chance he never once went back to the battle sight since the day of the battle and the distances he gave would be the first issue to fall short.
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 9:49 am

Aussie
Without going over familiar ground I wonder could you tell me in one or two sentences what advantage a vedette would have on Qwabe that a vedette on Ithusi would not have? That is what the former would see more clearly than the latter. Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 10:17 am

Julian

The views from Itusi is far better, but the only issue is, to see the entire Qwabi valley you need to be at the far end of Itusi, and by doing that you deny yourself a line of sight down where the Nqutu hill are. Itusi covers a large area

What the British should of done is place a vedette on the hill Barker discovered that army that hill covers a lot of dead ground and the Zulu remained hidden there for over 2 hours.

The distance between Itusi and Barkers hill is less than a kilometer but once you place yourself on Barkers hill you can see all that lower ground were the modern day freeway is and that covers around 4 to 5 kilometers

What I am saying Barkers hill is a far better vedette position.
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 10:53 am

Inky
We are in full agreement about the positives of 'Barkers Hill', But there remains the argument of the positions the vedettes were given for their posts and the strictures on how far out from camp they could be posted.
I would disagree with you on the length of the view up and down the Qwabe valley could be viewed from the iThusi ridge line. I do have photos that would prove that, but you need to buy the book to see them (😆🤣😂) I have devoted a chapter to just that point. None of which however disputes the added dimension of 'Barkers Hill', although I would be tempted instead to call it 'WHITELAWS HILL' 😎
Julian,
The Qwabe hill, is actualy a small knoll that has pretty good alround views but is low level compared to ithusi.
Ithusi commands the upper levels of the plateau as well as a view of the top of Mabaso and the whole eastern plain right up to iSiphezi
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 11:43 am

Frank
I just got an email from Aulette apologizing, I paid for your book 2 weeks ago, and still waiting for a tracking number, looking forward to it mate.

Whitelaws hill, do you think he was there before Barker if so it would have had to be before 9am because that would be the time the Zulu arrived.

By the way it would not surprise me if in the 3 days the British was there they never cross over Barkers hill once, and if true would only highlight the poor standard of British patrols.
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 11:45 am

Frank
That is as I imagined it and meets my expectations.
aussie
Thank you for your explanation.
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 12:26 pm

Something thats always been brushed away with ' you cant see anything from the top of iSandlwana'
Thats wrong
This is the view down into the Ngwebini valley that caused Raw to need a change in Y fronts.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

If I turn 180 degrees then this is the view across Mabaso, peaking over the hills is the top of iSandlwana.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Just to make it clear this is with a small telephoto.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

My point being, there were sentries on top of the hill and a whole lot of vedettes, surely at least one would have spotted Raw riding like hell down the slope of Mabaso pursued by some local chappies bent on mayhem etc.
The fact that it was not reported at a very early stage then surely brings into question the whole traditional concept of the impi charging up the face of Mabaso, over the brow then down to the plain.

Just a thought for Tuesday


Last edited by Frank Allewell on Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 12:29 pm

I should add that the ridge to the left is the western side of Inky's 'Barkers Hill'
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 12:43 pm

To follow that through, this is shot from the same area, and shows the eastern plain the Hlazakazi hills right through to mangeni with iSphezi hill. So in theory if the top of this hill suddenly became covered in 20000 zulu, give or take the odd handful, why wasnt it seen by anyone out there on the plain, the RA bogged down, the naval chap with his telescope, Gardner ( Knew that would wake you up Kate) et al.
Could it be that there were no zulu up there at all? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 6:08 pm

Cracking photos Frank and thought provoking
Did the Fugitives Trail photos I sent you come out okay?

You are not the only one Inky. I contacted Aulette this morning to find out if my books had been despatched as I've heard nothing since I paid for them. She has passed on my enquiry to Shirley at their Pinetown office who deals with the dispatching of orders.
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 7:30 pm

Hi Kate
Sorry I didnt get back to you. The FT photos are superb. I havent got round to sorting just yet, Im back home next week.
My own copies only arrived last week, I do hear of copies being received around the world so hopefully soon. Id like to think they are so inundated with orders that they cant cope.😃😂😃
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 15, 2022 7:36 pm

I love this Forum

Frank you said the following
My point being, there were sentries on top of the hill and a whole lot of vedettes, surely at least one would have spotted Raw riding like hell down the slope of Mabaso pursued by some local chappies bent on mayhem etc.
The fact that it was not reported at a very early stage then surely brings into question the whole traditional concept of the impi charging up the face of Mabaso, over the brow then down to the plain.

FRANK Raw never got that far the discovery took place under the Nqutu hills like Barker, Uguku, and Mehlakazulu, testified                                            Uguku was a screen and saw Raw Approaching.

But I would say the chest did run down Mabaso only when the first action around Mkwene was taking place 30 minutes after the discovery in the dead ground under the Nqutu hills which explains the chest late arrival.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 17, 2022 6:22 pm

Here's the relevant Barker excerpt...


“On 21st January all the available mounted men went on a patrol, only those remaining in camp who were on duty, or whose horses had sore backs or otherwise were not fit for riding.
I was on vidette duty next day with every available man under Lieut. Scott. We left camp at about 4 a.m., and the Carbineers were posted to the direct front and left of the camp, from three to five miles away. Hawkins, my bosom friend, and myself were posted on a hill to the extreme front, quite six miles from camp, and arrived on the hill about sunrise. After being posted for about a quarter of an hour we noticed a lot of mounted men in the distance, and on their coming nearer we saw that they were trying to surround us. We gave the usual signal, but had to retire off the hill post haste, as we discovered they were Zulus.
We retired to Lieut. Scott, about two miles nearer camp, and informed him of what we had seen, and he decided to come back with us, but before we had gone far we saw Zulus on the hill we had just left, and others advancing from the left flank where two other videttes, Whitelaw and another, had been obliged to retire from.
Whitelaw reported a large army advancing, ‘thousands’ I remember him distinctly stating, and he was immediately sent back to camp with the report. This would be about eight a.m. He returned with a message to Lieut. Scott that we were to watch the enemy carefully and send back reports of their movements.
Shortly afterwards, numbers of Zulus being seen on all the hills to the left and front, Trooper Swift and another were sent back to report. The Zulus then remained on the hills, and about two hundred of them advanced to within three hundred yards of us, but on our advancing they retired out of sight, and a few of us went up to this hill where the Zulus had disappeared, and on a farther hill, at about six hundred yards’ distance, we saw a large army sitting down. We returned to Lieut. Scott, who was then about three miles from camp, and reported what we had seen. Hawkins and I were then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp.
On our way back we noticed the Zulus advancing slowly, and when about a mile and a half from the camp we met the rocket battery, who enquired the enemy’s whereabouts. We advised the officer to proceed to where Lieut. Scott was stationed, but he asked if he could get up a hill to his left. We informed him that the Zulus were advancing towards that hill, and most probably would be seen on it within half an hour. The officer decided to proceed up this hill, and the battery was, half an hour afterwards, cut up to a man, just as they arrived, I believe, on the top of the hill in question. (We, the videttes, were at this time in a donga firing at the Zulus, and witnessed the cutting up of this battery without their having time to fire a single shot.)
Hawkins and I reported to an officer, staff, I believe, about the advance of the Zulus, and as we left camp to return to Lieut. Scott, another Carbineer, I am not sure of his name (Hayhow), galloped in and reported Zulus in every direction advancing. He was then sent on to the General with some report, and was never seen again alive by any in camp, although he is reported to have given a dispatch to the General, who sent him back to camp, at which the poor fellow never arrived.
As Hawkins and I were returning to the vidette outpost we noticed the mounted Basutos to the extreme left of the camp in skirmishing order, and masses of the Zulus on all the hills.”
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 18, 2022 6:48 pm

From Drummond, Natal Witness 30JAN79:

At ten o’clock the General and his staff made a halt for breakfast at the head of the valley on the left, and very shortly afterwards Captain Buller, Rifle Brigade, A.D.C., brought in word that the Mounted Corps under Major Dartnell were engaged on our right. News also came in about the same time from camp that the enemy were observed in force on the left. I enquired from the Carbineer who brought this note, what their being ‘in force’ meant, and he replied, ‘some 500 or 600 men,’ and he also added that the Mounted Men in camp, many of whom had been on piquet, had just gone out on a patrol in that direction.

From Natal Witness 29MAY79

A gentleman who visited Isandhlwana with the expedition of the 21st informs us that the following bodies of the Carbineers were seen and identified:

Lieut. Scott, Trooper Borain, Blaikie, Lumley, Davis, Tarboton, Hawkins, Moodie, Christian, Swift, Dickenson, Hayhow, Haldeane. Colonel Durnford's body was also recognised. The missing Carbineers are Quartermaster London, Quartermaster-Sergeant Bullock; Troopers Whitelaw, R. Jackson, Ross, Dean, and Mendenhall.

Julian has quite a nice writeup on the identification of KIA Carbineers in his Studies in the Zulu War 1879: Vol. V.

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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 19, 2022 8:59 am

Thats an interesting comment in their Mike about what a Colonial constituted as 'in force'
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 19, 2022 9:08 am

Do they state where they found Trooper Hayhow body ?
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 19, 2022 9:47 am

Hayhow's body was found in the group surrounding Lieut. Scott on the 21st May.
Source: Anonymous “Gentleman who visited Isandhwana [sic] with the expedition of the 21st”, Natal Witness, 29th May 1879, p. 3, col. 1.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 19, 2022 11:22 am

Thanks Julian

Congratulations on your piece "Reading between the Lines" on Anglo Zulu War Historical Society would I be correct to say its your first piece
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 19, 2022 12:12 pm

AUSSIE
It actually appeared in Studies in the Zulu War vol. II in 2013. I was asked if it could be reproduced in that Journal. What do you mean by 'first piece'?
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 19, 2022 12:25 pm

Julian
There is 50 Volumes in the Anglo Zulu War Historical Society is this your first Journal for them
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 19, 2022 1:37 pm

pm'd you.
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PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers - Page 2 EmptySun Feb 20, 2022 7:58 pm


Thanks Julian got it.
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