Nine of the 24th

Subject: Nine of the 24th Fri Sep 13, 2024 2:15 pm

Photographed in the studio of Henry Kisch, Pietermaritzburg, nine members of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment.

Eight men are shown in the nine-button tunic, and the other wears the five-button frock. Two men in the group do not wear the Sphinx collar badge, and another only wears the right Sphinx. Only the soldier in the frock appears to be wearing numbered shoulder straps.

There is a distinct variation in tone of the stained Foreign Service helmets.

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Privates, 24th Regiment, Pietermaritzburg.
(John Young Collection.)

JY

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Sun Sep 15, 2024 11:26 am

The soldier with the knobkerrie does seem to have a very stained helmet.

Posts : 14 Join date : 2019-04-15 Location : United Kingdom

That’s an excellent photograph, thank you for sharing.

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:21 pm

This must surely be a photo from late in the campaign.

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Sun Sep 15, 2024 6:49 pm

Julian,

Or the start, considering the number of walking out sticks, and who can can say that the weapon on the right is not a Xhosa one?

JY

Subject: Nine of the 24th Mon Sep 16, 2024 7:52 am

Excellent pic JY .
90th Very Happy

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Mon Sep 16, 2024 8:32 am

John, that's very true. It could be either. Either way, it is an excellent photo.

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Mon Sep 16, 2024 8:37 am

John,
Out of interest, where did you find the photo? An auction? On sale in which country?

Posts : 614 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

John - your post seems to have created some interest.

If you look at the man (Private) on the bottom left with 3 good conduct badges - he could be:

25B/1805 Pte Andrew Brien 1/24th
25B/1396 Pte Thomas Collins 2/24th - RD
2-24/1634 Pte William Dicks 2/24th - RD
25B/2798 Pte Matthew Finn 2/24th - from 101 Ft
2-24/2067 Dmr William Hayes 2/24th - RD
2-24/593 Pte William Jones - RD VC unlikely
2-24/1614 Pte William Keall 2/24th
2-24/1812 Pte William Tasker 2/24th - RD
1-24/999 Pte John Toomey 1/24th

If the group are all 1/24th - then the man is either Brien or Toomey

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Mon Sep 16, 2024 8:16 pm

Kenny,

Thanks very much for that information.

Julian,

I will pm you.

JY

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Mon Sep 16, 2024 8:39 pm

Kenny wrote:: John - your post seems to have created some interest.

If you look at the man (Private) on the bottom left with 3 good conduct badges - he could be:

25B/1805 Pte Andrew Brien 1/24th
25B/1396 Pte Thomas Collins 2/24th - RD
2-24/1634 Pte William Dicks 2/24th - RD
25B/2798 Pte Matthew Finn 2/24th - from 101 Ft
2-24/2067 Dmr William Hayes 2/24th - RD
2-24/593 Pte William Jones - RD VC unlikely
2-24/1614 Pte William Keall 2/24th
2-24/1812 Pte William Tasker 2/24th - RD
1-24/999 Pte John Toomey 1/24th

If the group are all 1/24th - then the man is either Brien or Toomey

Kenny

Is that assuming that assuming that the photo is taken at the end of the war?

Thanks a lot.

Posts : 614 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

Most photographs of the period were taken at Pinetown (1/24th August 1879 and 2/24th October 1879). Although some of 1/24th images were taken at Cape Town 1875-77 before the Frontier War & Zulu War.

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Mon Sep 16, 2024 9:09 pm

Thank you

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:29 pm

I believe that the famous photo of H coy 1/24th was taken in either Wynberg 1876 or King William's Town 1877.

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:46 pm

Julian,

I think you dismiss Wynberg Camp, the 1st/24th were under canvas there.

They did move from there to the main barracks in Cape Town.

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The encampment of the 1st/24th Wynberg. From the album of Capt. Harrisson.
(John Young Collection.)

JY

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:06 pm

john
They may have been under canvas at Wynberg Camp but H coy could have had its photo taken in front of a building while there, or am I barking up the wrong tree? I write this only because FWDJ always thought it was a possibility.

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:47 pm

Julian,

The wooden “prefab” barrack buildings were certainly there by late 1879, the church was there when the 1st/24th were encamped there, but it is the only obvious standing structure.

JY

Posts : 614 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

The H Company photo used by David Jackson could have been taken after they returned from St Helena when they met up with the rest of the battalion at Cape Town on 3 August 1877 before they took HMS Orontes to East London on 6 August 1877 and then took the train to KWT. In my view it is doubtful that the group photo was taken on St Helena - unless there was a professional photographer based on the island.

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:31 pm

Kenny,

Thanks for including the date, in that case the building would have been part of the main barracks in Cape Town.

There was a photographer’s studio in Jamestown in the 1870’s.

JY

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:18 am

The only other clue is in the caption:
H. Company 1st Battn 24th Regiment. Presented to H. Co 2nd Battn, 24th Regiment at Capetown on completion of operations against Kaffir chief Kreli and Sandili October 1878.

Posts : 614 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

As far I can tell, H Company (then Caldwell) 2/24th were never in Cape Town. They landed from Postmouth at East London from the troopship Himalaya on 9-11 March 1877 (they had to land via surfboats).

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Wed Sep 18, 2024 9:03 am

Interesting. Two questions arise.
Where precisely was H coy in October 1878?
And
If H coy was not in Cape Town to make the presentation in Oct 1878 then perhaps a delegation of a couple of officers visited to make the presentation.
The date of the presentation is obviously different from the date of the photo. That 'might' be determined from the officers in the photo - Cavaye, Atkinson, Wardell - and from the presence in it of Sergt. Thomas Deeming who served in H Company on St. Helena from 8.8.1876, arrived in South Africa from there with a draft on 31.8.1877, and served in the Ninth Kaffir War 1877-8. He left S. Africa before the start of the Zulu War but I don't know the date.

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Wed Sep 18, 2024 8:21 pm

Julian,

He left South Africa on the "Tyne" arriving in Portsmouth on 11th Jan 1879. (Embarkation list WO 25/3510)
Entry in the Gosport Discharge lists WO 16/2915:

256 Sgt Thomas Deeming, single, Class of discharge 21yrs, Very Good character, 5 Good Conduct badges, from Cape on the Tyne, at Netley from 12th January to 4th February Address on discharge: Coventry.

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Wed Sep 18, 2024 10:01 pm

I somehow knew you might know the answer Bill...

Posts : 614 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

Julian,

The caption on David Jackson's H Coy 1/24th photo does not seem right. The focus of Operations in 77-78 for bost battalions of 24th was in the Eastern Cape. It was easy to travel to Cape Town from East London - only in those days by ship. The H Coy photo was probably taken in (1) Cape Town before it's departure to St Helena (7 Aug 76) (possible) (2) On St Helena (unlikely) or (3) On it's return from St Helena (likely) to East London & KWT (3 Aug 77) or later. The famous 1878 1/24th officers' group with Sir Bartle Frere etc was taken in KWT in 1878. So we know there was well qualified photographer at KWT.

Incidently, Sgt Deeming's discharge board (members Logan, Mostyn & Upcher) was held at KWT on 16 Sep 78.

Subject: Re: Nine of the 24th Thu Sep 19, 2024 10:24 am

Martin,
The fact that the two H coys gave a photo to each other does imply that they might have been together at some point to have come up with the idea in the first place, even if the presentation was later.
Knowing what the caption was on the H coy 2nd Bn. photo would be useful but unfortunately I never saw it before Stanley Baker 'borrowed' it. David DID see it but made no note of the caption.
In light of the above (1) and (2) would be impossible rather than unlikely and a later date would seem a better bet. Surely, the presentation in Oct 1878 could not have occurred very long after the photos were taken(?)

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