An Irish V.C. conundrum?

Subject: An Irish V.C. conundrum? Tue Oct 01, 2024 5:17 am

Here's a puzzle for us to solve, though I suspect john Young may have the advantage of us here with his insider 'Irish' knowledge.

Reading one of the countryman Jack Hargreaves's books he mentions several times an Irish immigrant, a 'nagsman' and, in old age, a whip-maker, called 'Paddy' (his name might have been Patrick or it might have been a nickname). When Paddy died, Hargreaves wrote this:

"We never learned the secret of Paddy until after he died. Then the schoolmistress returned in a state of excitement from her weekly reading of The Times in the library on Market Day. She had found an obituary notice to Paddy. We all assembled at the school steps for her to read it. Long ago in Zululand as a Corporal of the Household Cavalry he had won the V.C."

It is impossible to tell from the book when and where Paddy's death occurred but it could well have been in the 1920s at Armitage Bridge near Huddersfield where Hargreaves lived. I've checked all the V.C. records and can't find any Irish cavalryman awarded a V.C. It may be that Hargreaves memory was at fault and it was a D.C.M., or Paddy was in a different regiment, or it was a different war (Boer?).

Does anyone have any idea?

Posts : 614 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

Firstly, Household Cavalry is a generic term - you either served in The Life Guards or Royal Horse Guards (The Blues). No VCs from either regiment in AZW or ABZ. The few DCMs in ABW do not seem to fit the story - Cpl Major C Yeatman, Shoeing-Smith J Mason (worth looking at), Cpl E Kibblewhite 1st Life Gds; Cpl-Major Silwood, Corporal of Horse J Male 2nd Life Guards; QM-Cpl-Major C E Harford, Cpl-Major T H Taylor Royal Horse Guards.

Of course, in the AZW there was Tpr Robert Brown DCM, Frontier Light Horse from Yorkshire. Interestingly, he was decorated by HM Queen Victoria at Windsor Castle on Tue 9 Dec 1879. Sadly, he drowned in 1881 - see this website.

Subject: Re: An Irish V.C. conundrum? Tue Oct 01, 2024 1:35 pm

Yes, nothing seems to fit the bill, does it? I wonder whether he got the year right but the campaign wrong - Afghanistan maybe?

Posts : 614 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

Julian,

I have tried find the original Times article using various search criteria without success. Perhaps others can find it. The 3 regiments of Household Cavalry were not involved in Afghanistan perhaps individuals were? However they were in the 1882 Egypt campaign. Still no VCs.

Subject: Re: An Irish V.C. conundrum? Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:44 am

Stranger than fiction?
I have looked at VC winners from other African campaigns twenty years either side of 1879 with no luck.
It must be a different medal. Hargreaves was an honest writer not prone to inventing things for the sake of it, though that doesn't stop his memory being at fault. He was writing in the 1980s and the schoolmistress event must have happened 55 years before that.

Subject: Re: An Irish V.C. conundrum? Wed Oct 02, 2024 10:27 am

Kenny
By the way Trooper Brown FLH doesn't fit. He was a Yorkshireman. 'Paddy' was definitely an Irishman who went to live in Yorkshire after he'd left the army.

Posts : 614 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

Julian,

There could be a link? - Sgt John Beresford 25B/1980 - Sir John Frederick Peirse de la Poer Beresford - born Bedale, Yorkshire. Later Lt 2/SWB. Served AZW and Burma.
Lord Beresford VC and Edmund O'Toole VC at Ulundi - Edmund was known as Pat or Paddy.
Maybe the author got the story twisted.

Posts : 3384 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi All

Just someone that could fit the bill. Please do not shoot me if I am incorrect.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Whitstable Times and Herne Bay Herald, 18 March 1944

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Andy

Subject: Re: An Irish V.C. conundrum? Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:45 pm

Andy
That certainly seems to fit the bill. Hargreaves moved from Yorkshire to Bucks to Dorset. Kent is hard to fit in with Hargreaves's story (in 1944 Hargreaves was on Monty's staff, not listening to the village schoolmistress). Nevertheless it is the best fit. There was even a mention of a Life Guards officer which might have confused the schoolmistress or Hargreaves.
Kenny
Trooper Brown died a captain in 1891 in Salisbury, Rhodesia (before Hargeaves was even born). The facts don't fit.

Subject: Re: An Irish V.C. conundrum? Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:00 pm

Julian,

How about John Doogan, 1st (King’s) Dragoon Guards? Awarded the Victoria Cross for his actions at Laing’s Nek, 28th January 1881, during the 1st Boer War. Doogan had previously served in the Zulu War.

Dragoon Guards were Heavy Cavalry, so possibly confused with Household Cavalry.

JY

Subject: An Irish V.C. Conundram Wed Oct 02, 2024 10:44 pm

Hi All
JY May've nailed it ? , Pvt John Doogan Ist KDG's ( during the Zulu War ) was native to Aughrim in County Galway , don't know if he also received a Promotion after being awarded the V.C. ? .
90th Salute

Subject: Re: An Irish V.C. conundrum? Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:51 am

Kenny
In my reply above I should have written Brown not O'Toole, sorry, it's now corrected.
John/90th
Martin has sent me a number of press cuttings re Doogan including his obituary in Folkestone in 1940. Unfortunately his life-story does not seem to fit in with Hargreaves's anecdote.

» New Website. Irish Regiments & History. A Website Dedicated To The Fighting Irish.
» The Irish Connection.
» Victoria's harvest: the Irish soldier