No. 985. PTE. EDWARD READ. 2-24 Regt. (South Wales Borders).

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

Rorke's Drift South Africa - February 8th, 1879.

"Dear Father and Mother and dear friends at home, you will be glad to get this note. I am sure it is a miracle that I escaped being cut to pieces by the Zulu. As it happened the day our camp was attacked we went in search of the enemy, we started very early in the morning and went about four or five hours and then we went to a place where we intended stopping all night, between two large hills but as luck happened one of our dear mates escaped on horse-back and he rode up to the general as unconcerned as though nothing had happened. He said: "My Lord the camp is taken by the enemy and all our dear white boys are cut up". You may guess how we looked at one another, it was an awful affair. The General did not say any-thing personally to the men until we got within a mile and a half of the camp when we halted and formed up, and he said to us all: "My dear men we have lost our camp and all ammunition, be careful with what you have, we only carried seventy rounds per man, we must take the camp from the enemy" -- LORD CHELSMFORD. So we gave three cheers and advanced towards the camp. The guns were shelling as we went forward. We got into camp without losing a man, we stopped there all that night, watching the enemy, they were returning over hills and mountains. When day broke the sight was a frightful one. We were surrounded by dead bodies and most of them we knew, for about three miles all along the roads. You could see several that had tried to get away but was killed in the attempt. Even the poor little band boys were butchered and hung up to a wagon. The same as sheep. It is far different fighting here to what it would be with a European country. If it was only shooting a fellow it would not be so bad they cut you open and take your heart out and eat it. They think that it makes them strong, and if they leave it in they think that you would come to life again. Well, as I was telling you about stopping there that night, the next morning we proceeded to Rorke's Drift a place about 12 miles from where this occurred. As we passed the Amayovia mountain we could see the stores in flames and thousands of blacks around. We hurried towards the house that belonged to a Dutch missionary which was used as a hospital for sick and wounded. We crossed the Blood River and went to the place where the stores were. There was a company of ours there and they did some good work. They made a fort, corn in bags and sacks, only lost 14 men. We were digging holes to bury them for four days, because we must put them in deep for fear of fever. We are stopping still at the same place. It is eighteen days since officer or man, took his clothing off. We have built a wall all around us and now we fear nothing. Bryand is all right. We have to be on the look out every other night and one half sleeps, but all of us are with our rifles in our hands. Goodbye dear friends. I live in hope of returning when this is over and then I will tell you a tale. I must say goodbye now. Love to all brothers and sisters

From Your Son,

February 8th, 1879."

Posts : 3388 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

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Dave/1879 graves,
Can you tell me the source of this letter, whether it was published, and if not, where it is held? It's not in Brecon.
I'd be very grateful.

Posts : 3388 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi Julian

I do not know the source of the letter. The information came from the following website.
http://www.historikorders.com

Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Hi
Thanks. That's where I've seen it but I was hoping to obtain a provenance for it. Perhaps Dave knows.

Totally wrong heading.

The 24th Regt was NEVER called the swb, meaning that the swb were NEVER the 24th Regt.

The last British infantry regiment to have the line number of 24, was the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of foot.

The line numbers and titles were ended in 1881, and the later new regiment of 1881 was simply called the swb, and therefor was NEVER the 24th Regt.

I wish some people would stop trying to steal the old regiments Line number, Glory and Honours, to try to confuse and convince others and make believe they are theirs, just like Baker tried to do with his almost fictional 1964 film (which is now long overdue for a more honest and truthful remake).

Thank you Martin, I think Dave knows that and I don't think he has written what you've suggested. He was just trying to be precise because this soldier was both in the 24th Regt (Zulu War) and then in the SWB (2nd Burmese War). See 1879graves's post about the medals and you'll see.

I really need an answer from Dave (he has no pm) but I suspect it may be the same as 18798graves's.

Thanks Julian.

Whoever wrote the heading needs to check it, they have put Borders rather than Borderers.

Yes, you may be right, it could well be the same website.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Looking at the website there is really no indication that the letter is from Private Read ("The following letter from a young soldier engaged in the Zulu campaign to his friend in Bath"). There are a whole host of general photographs and texts relating to the AZW, including Read's medals, but the two are not necessarily linked are they?

Incidentally, he appears on the medal roll for the 3rd Burma War but not the AZW so far as I can see.

PS it goes on to say "has been placed in our hands (Pro)" Which reads very much like a newspaper report. Or, just possibly, (Pro) means Public Record Office?
Steve

Posts : 3388 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi Steve

The Noble 24th by Norman Holme
Granted 1 penny per diem Good Conduct Pay 16th December 1878. South Africa Medal with Clasp 1877-8-9. His regimental service number was 985.

I do not have a copy of the Noble 24th to check.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Hi Graves

I am looking at the Noble 24th as I write. I know I am fast becoming doolally but I'm damned if I can see it! 2nd Battalion alphabetical goes Rawlinson, Reardon ..... no Read. Couldn't see him on the original roll either. Tell me it's my age.

Steve

Posts : 3388 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi Steve

I have checked the Medal Roll and could not find him.

But on my database he is listed with the ref from Noble 24th?

As I do longer own a copy of the Noble 24th, I could not check it.

So it looks like you could be correct - Not listed

And No - it is not your age lol

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

The mystery deepens! The following entry in Noble 24th.

Leon. E. 985 Private. Granted 1 penny per diem Good Conduct Pay 16/12/78. South Africa Medal with clasp 1877-8-9. Medal roll confirms.

Steve

Posts : 615 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

985

Enlisted under a false name (10% did this in those days) - as Edward Leon. Reverted to his true name of Read during his service in India after signing a declaration to false enlistment. The AWZ medal is engraved 'LEON' whereas the IGM is named to 'READ'. Served C Company 2/24th.

Posts : 3388 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi Kenny

Many thanks for the information.

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I already knew that Read was indeed Pte. Leon and had independent confirmation of it - I just don't know where the blasted letter is or whether it's still in private hands.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Thanks Kenny, Graves. Found him on FMP. Also found this - if it's him could be why he used a false name.

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Here's his fathers grocers shop in Bath.

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Steve

Steve
Brilliant.

Having asked a colleague to research the supposed location of the letter thoroughly, he found there was no record of it and that therefore it may well not be genuine (i.e. a possible hoax) and therefore should not be advertised as genuine or used in any research (until proven otherwise). This is said with only the very best intentions.
Read was certainly Leon but there is no record of any letter.

Posts : 615 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

Letters from 'the front' have historical value and of course attract interest - but we have take some things with 'a pinch of salt'. Most soldiers wrote home to reassure their families that they had survived Isandlwana (the big news story in the press) even though they were not actually present at the battle itself (particularly in the case of letters from 2/24th soldiers - less B Company). Also many soldiers had limited literary skills - so others more able in the Company helped out - what resulted group (or a quasi-official) record of what took place rather than a true account of the individual's recollection of events which he witnessed.

Kenny
Whilst that's true, other letters have simply been faked (for whatever reason) and I think the 'Read/Leon' one is a modern fake.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Julian

There is an intriguing short sentence in the letter."Bryand is all right". Who is Bryand, a fellow soldier in 2/24th perhaps? If it can be shown to be so, it perhaps gives some degree of credibility to the account. It is always a worry though when a letter gets attached to a desirable group of medals - increases the price no end!

Steve

Steve
There was a Pte Bryant in the 2/24th in a different coy from Read who enlisted at Brecon but Read/Leon's parents are believed to have lived in Berkshire so it would be strange for Read to be reassuring his parents about the safety of someone they didn't really know.
There was also a Pte. Bryan in the 2/24th.
My worry is that having tracked down where the alleged letter was supposed to be found, it simply wasn't there (I must acknowledge Frederic's help here because he did the donkey work). In fact there was no mention of it.
In addition it's not in TNA or Brecon and the website on which it was published has no record of where it came from which is all very suspicious (unless proven otherwise). It could of course have resided with descendants all these years but if so it's strange that they haven't made it known to Brecon and chose instead to publish it on an obscure website. And then...there's your last comment which is sadly true and coincidental.
At the moment it's just 'text on a website' and I have to say that reading it, the content doesn't 'feel right'. My heart hopes I'm wrong but my head says I'm right.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Julian

Read's parents lived in Bath, appearing in all the census returns from 1871 - 1911. Read enlisted (as Leon) in Cardiff and gives Landsdown Rd Bath address for his next of kin. Does "Bryant" have any initials?

Steve

Steve
Thanks.
Bryant was Edward. Bryan was John.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Julian

In 1871 Pt. 877 Edward Bryant 2/24th was living, as a lodger, at 10 Mullings Buildings, Walcot, Bath, he was 21 and born in Melksham, Wiltshire.
Walcot is the same Bath parish where Read lived at the same time. Bryant was a gentleman's servant.
Bryant attested for the 2/24th on 3 November 1876 at Brecon, just a month before Read. There is a note in his papers that he had given himself up for fraudulent enlistment having been invalided from the Royal Marines two years previously. He was nevertheless passed fit to serve. In 1881 he deserted, giving himself up in April 1882, and sentenced to 365 days imprisonment. He forfeited his AZW 1877-8-9 medal and clasp. He continued to serve until 1888. In 1891 he was living with his wife in St Marylebone and was still going in 1911. I would guess he and Edward Read were friends from Bath days - gives the existence of the letter some legs perhaps?

Steve

rusteze
Yes it does. Well done Steve. Bryant is close enough to Bryand to be the same man. I am still concerned by the absence of a provenance for the letter though.

Posts : 615 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

I've got Bryant, Edward as 25B/877 - so much closer to Read 25B/985.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Your quite right Kenny, I have edited to 877.

Julian
Have you tried the Bath newspapers? His father was quite well to do and the more I read the introduction on the website transcript, the more it sounds like a newspaper blurb. Obviously the heading for the Harrow School plaque is wrongly placed.

Steve

Not all Bath / Somerset papers are on-line yet. Nothing in the ones that are (so far) - thanks to Frederic's search. My gut feeling is still, that from the content point of view, this is a good fake.

Posts : 2 Join date : 2017-11-09

Hi, I've just joined the forum and Pte Edward Read is one of my ancestors. I also have a copy of the letter in question.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Welcome to the forum. That's very interesting, as you can see we tried to do some ferreting around last year to establish the authenticity. Is your's a copy the letter itself or a press cutting? Do you know where the original is and what more can you tell us about Private Read?

Steve

I have no doubt Julian will be interested in this. Ive dropped him a line.

Yes, I am interested in this, absolutely.
showard88
Can you verify that the text at the top of this thread is the same as that in the letter you have?
Can you also confirm that the letter in your possession is the original?
Lastly, has the letter been in the family's possession continuously till now?

Posts : 2 Join date : 2017-11-09

Hi Julian
The letter at the top of the thread is the same letter that we have a copy of. After some digging I have found out that it was published in a newspaper (local newspaper we believe) and Edward's father copied it out into the back of his ledger in his grocers shop in Bath. I have emailed the local papers and currently waiting a reply. We do, however, have an original of another of Edwards letters dated 1878.

showard88
Thanks for your response. I am sure everyone would be grateful for the Bath newspaper source - I know I would.
I have sent you a second private message.

Posts : 12 Join date : 2009-12-05

Hi its been some time since any repose ref the originality of the letter of Pte E Read of the 2/24th
Can anyone confirm that the letter is original and was published

Comments most welcome

Cliff

I have not heard from anyone that the source has been forthcoming.

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