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 Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th

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littlehand

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyMon Jan 03, 2011 9:09 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Source: J.P Makinnon & S.H Shadbolt

Further Information would be appricated.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyMon Jan 03, 2011 11:09 pm

Littlehand. There's some information on Francis Freeman White on Mike Snook's: Notes on the Composition of the British Force at Isandlwana By Lt. Col. Mike Snook.

Page 2 at the bottom. Click on link.

http://1879zuluwar.forumotion.com/t3412-notes-on-the-composition-of-the-british-force-at-isandlwana-by-lt-col-mike-snook#15887
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littlehand

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyTue Jan 04, 2011 10:05 pm

Thanks CTSG. There doe's not seemed to be to much information on Francis Freeman White. Tried lots of avenue's coming up with nothing. Thanks for looking anyway.
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Julian Whybra




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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyTue Sep 13, 2011 1:01 pm

White was in the 1st battalion 24th Regiment, NOT the 2nd battalion.
In 1878 the Army Pay Department was formed which incorporated all regimental paymasters. It might be assumed that White had been transferred to this new unit, technically speaking.
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90th

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Francis Freeman White.   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyTue Sep 13, 2011 1:50 pm

Hi Julian.
I saw the F.F.White picture listed at the Waddington auction on the RDVC Forum and would like to have it !!. But , Alas I wont be bidding . Idea .
cheers 90th.
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kwajimu1879

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyTue Sep 13, 2011 8:39 pm

90th,

I've looked at the auction site as well, and I will not be bidding either, but for another reason.

The soldier depicted in the miniature is wearing a Royal Artillery pattern patrol jacket rather than an infantry pattern one which an officer of the 24th would have worn.

White served in the Indian Mutiny and was awarded the campaign medal without clasp, yet the officer in painting doesn't have a medal ribbon up.

Is it White? Personally I don't believe it is.

kwaJimu1879
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littlehand

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyTue Sep 13, 2011 8:53 pm

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Major Francis Freeman WHITE - Army Pay Dept. (24th Foot)
Copyright John Young Collection.
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kwajimu1879

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyTue Sep 13, 2011 10:20 pm

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Photo. kwaJimu1879 Collection

Hon. Major F.F. White 1st/24th during the 9th Frontier War, in an infantry pattern patrol jacket and wearing a medal ribbon for the Indian Mutiny.

kwaJimu1879
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90th

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Francis Freeman White.   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyWed Sep 14, 2011 3:43 am

Hi Kwajimu .
Thanks again for the heads up .
cheers 90th.
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Julian Whybra




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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyWed Sep 14, 2011 9:31 am

No, the portrait cannot be White. It's a dead ringer for him though.
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old historian2

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyWed Sep 14, 2011 11:52 am

Sorry guys. I we talking about the photo posted form the kwaJimu1879 Collection, or the one in the auction.
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kwajimu1879

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyWed Sep 14, 2011 5:33 pm

OH2,

I believe Julian is agreeing with me, that the miniature portrait is not who the auction house allege it to be.

I'll bet that some poor sucker doesn't follow this site and pays an awful lot for it.

kwaJimu1879
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Saul David 1879




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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyWed Sep 14, 2011 7:25 pm

My thoughts exactly.
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Paymaster 24th Foot




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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyThu Dec 06, 2018 7:21 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
No, the portrait cannot be White.  It's a dead ringer for him though.


Julian would you be so kind please as to explain why in your view it is not a picture of Francis White.

Many Thanks for any insights that you can give.
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John

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptySun Dec 16, 2018 11:45 pm

Looks like Julian can't give a reason.
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Paymaster 24th Foot




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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyMon Dec 17, 2018 3:46 pm

I cannot agree with Julian's comments about this picture. Having done further research I have come to the conclusion that this is a cut out portion of a picture of Sir Bartle Frere, with members of the 24th foot and others at King Williams Town in 1878. In the whole picture Francis White is standing 3rd from the left. The original picture resides in the Africana Museum Johannesburg I hope this gives further insight.
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Julian Whybra




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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyMon Dec 17, 2018 5:38 pm

Paymaster 24th Foot & John

The small photo from kwajimu's collection reproduced above (Sep 13 2011 9:20 pm) is indeed of White.
It is taken from a photo of the 'War Council', staff and 1/24th officers in the Military Reserve, taken in 1877. The photo appears in the Album of Bandmaster Burck.  
Apologies, I counted from the left, but included by mistake the man seated on the far left in the number.
The original photo can be found in Philip Gon's book opp. p. 144.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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John Young

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyMon Dec 17, 2018 7:33 pm

Julian,

Just for the sake of clarification this photograph in my collection has never been in the album of Bandmaster Burck.  My copy was from the personal property of one of the officers depicted in the photograph.  There could have been any number of prints made from the original plate.

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Sir Henry Bartle Edward Frere, Lt.-Gen. Sir Arthur Cunynghame, their Staffs, Civil Servants & Officers of 1st/24th. King William’s Town.
(John Young Collection.)

A close-up of the photograph clearly showing Francis White.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
(John Young Collection.)

The reverse of photograph endorsed with photographic studio’s stamp.  Apparently the studio of Crewes & Van Laun moved that address in 1878 to another address in Cape Town.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Given those present in the photograph I would conclude the latest date it could have been taken was January of 1878.  In my opinion it is not inconceivable that photograph was actually taken in 1877, prior to the resignations and dismissals of some in the photograph.

JY


Last edited by John Young on Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kenny




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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyTue Dec 18, 2018 8:20 am

John,

I know that General Cunyinghame reviewed Imperial and local forces at Ibeka, in the Transkei on 24th January 1878. However I think the building in the photo still exists in King Wlliam's Town which was use as the British HQ in what was called 'British Kaffraria'. I notice that Hillier (next to White) also appears in this photo.
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John Young

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyTue Dec 18, 2018 2:37 pm

Kenny,

Thanks for the input.  It is my understanding that some the Cape Government officials in the photograph returned to Cape Town in early January 1878, their views being at variance with the Confederation policy.

Yes that is indeed Deputy Commissary Augustus Hillier, Ordnance Store Department.

JY
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WeekendWarrior

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24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th   24th - Francis Freeman White Paymaster & Major 2/24th EmptyFri Sep 27, 2019 6:34 pm

I have a few statements on the location of his body.

From Mackinnon and Shadbolt:
"It is believed that the body of Captain Younghusband was recognized by Major Tongue, lying near to that of Major White, when Colonel Glyn temporarily reocuppied the ill-fated camp on the night of the battle; and the remains were identified and buried by Colonel Black, 24th Regiment, on his visit to the field five months afterwards."

Daily Telegraph Correspondent on Burials:
"Amongst the officers identified were Captain Wardell, 1-24th; Lieutenant Anstey, 1-24th; Lieutenant Dyer, 2-24th; and Major White, Paymaster of the 1-24th Regiment."

*regarding this burial expedition, Major Black in his official report states that the Officers identified as Major White and Lieutenant Anstey were "a captain and a subaltern of the 24th unrecognizable".

Historical Records of the 24th:
"Paymaster White’s body was found to the left of the 2nd battalion 24th camp. He had apparently been fighting with the companies on the left."

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