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 Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state

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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat

Posts : 94
Join date : 2009-02-13

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyWed Jun 08, 2011 11:23 am

Does any one know the exact location of the RC chapel in PMB where the Prince's body lay in state?
I am planning to visit PMB and would like to visit it.
The Imperial hotel in PMB apparently has a lot of pictures of the Prince.
Did he ever stay at the Hotel or is it just named in honor of him ?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7749
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyWed Jun 08, 2011 12:19 pm

Ourside the hotel is a cast iron rail with a sign indicating it was used by the Prince to tether his horse. He lay in state in the Catholic Cathedral PMB.

Regards
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat

Posts : 94
Join date : 2009-02-13

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyWed Jun 08, 2011 2:56 pm

Is that the current St Mary's Cathedral?
That is quite a bit down the bottom end of Longmarket Street. It says in Joy Brain's History of the Archdioesce of Durban that the original Church was in Loop Street.
According to her there have been three ST Mary's. The first in Loop Street which was built in 1852, the second in Longmarket Street built in 1890 and the third in Loop Street built in 1927.
I am obvioulsy interested in visiting the original building.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7749
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyWed Jun 08, 2011 3:32 pm

The body was taken for formal ID to the Catholic school and then placed in St Mary's, that is the St Mary's in Longmarket Street
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat

Posts : 94
Join date : 2009-02-13

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyWed Jun 08, 2011 3:37 pm

I will have to investigate a bit.
The Imperial Hotel is easy enough to find when my wife was working in PMB she used to collect her rental cars from the Imperial.
Thanks for your help.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7749
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyWed Jun 08, 2011 4:07 pm

I would assume therefore that you know of the Fort Napier Cemetery?
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat

Posts : 94
Join date : 2009-02-13

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyWed Jun 08, 2011 5:07 pm

Well I know there is a new police mortuary opposite the Fort Napier Chapel.
Who is buried in the cemetry none other than the good Col Durnford.
I will have to go and visit his grave.
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat

Posts : 94
Join date : 2009-02-13

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyThu Jun 16, 2011 9:17 pm

Where in PMB is the Fort Napier cemetery. I took a drive up from Durban and found Fort Napier quite easily.
Drove around the hospital grounds but could not find the cemetery or Col Durnford's grave.
The Garrison church across the road from the entrance to the hospital was locked.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7749
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyFri Jun 17, 2011 11:56 am

Corner of Church and Albert Luthuli I think
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879

Posts : 420
Join date : 2011-05-14

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyFri Jun 17, 2011 4:04 pm

Just an aside to the original question, when the Prince's body passed through Koppie Allein, on its way down to PMB, the post was commanded by Brevet Major Gonville Bromhead VC and the honour guard was formed by B Company 2/24th.

kwaJimu1879
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7749
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyFri Jun 17, 2011 4:45 pm

One lives and learns.
Nice facts Kwajimu

Regards
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Saul David 1879



Posts : 527
Join date : 2009-02-28

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyFri Jun 17, 2011 5:26 pm

The coffin, accompanied by the military Chaplain, Father Bellord, was
brought down from Koppie Alleen via Dundee and Estcourt to Pietermaritzburg
by ambulance wagon. Its approach to the city was heralded by the firing of
a gun at Fort Napier and the cortege was met at the bottom of Town Hill by
hundreds of people to the mournful tolling of city church bells.

"Here the simple coffin was taken from the wagon and placed on a gun
carriage which, escorted by a large contingent of many leading citizens,
moved slowly up Commercial Road, along Church Street into Longmarket
Street, by way of Chapel Street. The procession took three quarters of an
hour to reach the iron building. Bishop Joliet was away, so Father Barret
received the Prince’s body on its arrival, along with Fathers De Lacy and
Bandry who had accompanied the cortege through the city. But amongst those
present nobody felt the loss more than the Prince’s Valet, Uhlmann, who was
devastated by the death of his master and had previously identified the
body at the scene of his death, when Doctor Scott had closed the wounds
inflicted by the Zulu’s spears"


"After the embalming was completed the body was sealed in the lead-lined
coffin and transported by gun carriage to the Chapel in Loop Street, which
it reached at 5.15 p.m. for the lying in state. Here the coffin was placed
on a pedestal in the centre of the church with sword and helmet on top.
These were not his own as they had been taken by the Zulus who had killed
him. The entrance and interiors of the Chapel were draped in black and a
black pall covered the coffin with the letter N in black on a white"
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptySun Jun 19, 2011 5:31 pm

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"The simple chapel opened in December 1852 and erected on Lot 9 Burger Street, was the first of the buildings which eventually made up the Roman Catholic complex. This chapel was altered and improved several times and had a moment of glory when the body of the Prince Imperial lay in state there in June 1879. By 1890 it had become too small for the growing Catholic community and was replaced by a brick church in Longmarket Street. In 1854 Allard purchased a site adjoining the chapel, Lot 8 Burger Street, where in the next three years the missionaries themselves erected a large double-storey dwelling capable of accommodating 24 persons. This building was of solid construction and is still in existence, forming part of the convent until recent years. In 1857 Michael Hayes, one of Allard's flock who several times acted as his agent, bought the site opposite the chapel, Lot 9 Loop Street, on Allard's behalf. Later the buildings of St. Charles Grammar School were erected on this site as well as the presbytery erected by Bishop Jolivet. In 1859 half of Lot 10 Burger Street was acquired. It had belonged to Charles Logue who was obliged to mortgage it, and again Michael Hayes acted as the Bishop's agent. It was on this property next to the Augustinian sanatorium that Holy Name Chapel was erected. The final purchase on the Burger Street side was Lot 7 on which Captain McDonnell's cottage stood. It came onto the market in 1860 and was bought by the Bishop for £600. Later it became part of the land used for the Holy Family Convent. Four years later the site of the present St. Mary's, Loop Street, was acquired from Thomas Horn, who continued to occupy a cottage on part of the property. The first church built on this site, facing Longmarket Street, served the Catholic congregation until 1927 and is now used as the church hall. Within twelve years Bishop Allard had bought three plots on Burger Street and two on Loop Street".
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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves

Posts : 747
Join date : 2009-10-18

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptySun Jun 19, 2011 8:33 pm

Thanks Littlehand. By the way good to see you back. I thought you had won the lottery and done a runner..
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 41

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptySun Jun 19, 2011 8:34 pm

And from me Littlehand. Really good to see you back..... Idea
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 41

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyWed Jun 22, 2011 11:20 pm

Anyone seen this before.

From the Kiltarten History Books. By Lady I.A. Gregory

"There was a young Napoleon there, the grandson of Napoleon the First,
that was a great man indeed. I was in the island where he was interred;
it is a grand place, and what is not natural in those parts, there are
two blackthorn bushes growing in it where you go into the place he was
buried. And as to that great Napoleon, the fear of him itself was enough
to kill people. If he was living till now it is hard to say what way
would the world be. It is likely there'd be no English left in it, and
it would be all France. The young Napoleon was at the Zulu war was as
"fine a young man as you'd wish to lay an eye on; six feet four, and
shaped to match. As to his death, there was things might have been
brought to light, but the enquiry was stopped. There was seven of them
went out together, and he was found after, lying dead in the ground, and
his top coat spread over him. There came a shower of hailstones that
were as large as the top of your finger, and as square as diamonds, and
that would enter into your skull. They made out it was to save himself
from them that he lay down. But why didn't they lift him in the saddle
and bring him along with them? And the bullet was taken out of his head
was the same every bit as our bullets; and where would a Zulu get a
bullet like that? Very queer it was, and a great deal of talk about it,
and in my opinion he was done away with because the English saw the
grandfather in him, and thought he would do away with themselves in the
time to come. Sure if he spoke to one of them, he would begin to shake
before him, officers the same as men. We had often to be laughing seeing"
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90th

90th

Posts : 10267
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: where did the prince imperial lie in state    Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyThu Jun 23, 2011 6:29 am

Hi Impi.
No mate , never seen or heard of it before and more than likely from the fairy tale section ! ( It isnt a poem is it ??? ) .
Dont know what it's supposed to mean or say !!
cheers 90th Suspect
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7749
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyThu Jun 23, 2011 7:09 am

" There was a young girl from Nantucket"....................................................

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old historian2

old historian2

Posts : 1095
Join date : 2009-01-14
Location : East London

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyThu Jun 23, 2011 8:30 am

She wrote a book called
"Gods and Fighting Men [Paperback]Lady I. A. Gregory (Author)"
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90th

90th

Posts : 10267
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: where did the prince imperial lie in state    Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptyFri Jun 24, 2011 10:42 am

Hi all .
If anyone is wanting info on this subject I would imagine Ian Knight's book ' With his face to the foe ' will cover all aspects of this
sad saga from start to finish . here is a link to a well priced copy if you wish to purchase the book and read first hand all the details .

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1862273677/ref=sr_1_1_olp?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308908455&sr=1-1&condition=used

Hard to beat !!!!.

cheers 90th. Idea
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Ken Gillings



Posts : 205
Join date : 2009-10-20
Age : 73
Location : Pinetown, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptySat Jun 25, 2011 11:39 am

Good afternoon. If you give me a call when you arrive in KwaZulu-Natal, I'll give you directions to Fort Napier military cemetery. It is usually locked to prevent vandalisation of the graves, so it may be difficult to gain access. My landline number is 0317024828 and my cellphone number 0836545880. Regards, Ken
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Eric



Posts : 116
Join date : 2011-06-17

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptySat Jun 25, 2011 3:17 pm

I drove to Fort Napier a week ago and drove into the hospital. There was a canon there but no graveyard. AsKen says the graveyard next to the garrison church is locked. How does one gain access.
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24th

24th

Posts : 1857
Join date : 2009-03-25

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptySat Jun 25, 2011 4:23 pm

Eric. Church door, cannon. Just add ball and powder. Access gained.
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Eric



Posts : 116
Join date : 2011-06-17

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptySat Jun 25, 2011 7:02 pm

I don't think that is good advice. Easier to give some-one a ZAR 10 note and ask to be let in.
The Hospital is quite interesting next to the mortuary.
There is a big canon in the central square of the hospital.
But seriously is there no one at PMB tourism that one can phone.
Apparently Col Durnford is buried there so it is quite an interesting destination.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2581
Join date : 2009-04-24

Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state   Where did the Prince Imperial lie in state EmptySat Jun 25, 2011 8:38 pm

http://1879zuluwar.forumotion.com/t634-lieutenant-colonel-anthony-william-durnford?highlight=Durnford



Quote :
Good afternoon. If you give me a call when you arrive in KwaZulu-Natal, I'll give you directions to Fort Napier military cemetery. It is usually locked to prevent vandalisation of the graves, so it may be difficult to gain access. My landline number is 0317024828 and my cellphone number 0836545880. Regards, Ken
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