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Posts : 8231 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 75 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:05 am
Those items posted by Steve incidentally relate to well before hostilities, May 12th so at least 1878.
Cheers
rusteze
Posts : 2872 Join date : 2010-06-02
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:23 am
Morning all.
Your right Frank about the date of the extracts I posted. I think it is helpful, in drawing out a picture of Durnford, to seek out references to him in the years between BRP and Isandhlwana. We should not be overly influenced by attitudes towards him once the Frere/Chelmsford conspiracy to start a war with the Zulu had begun. Once that was in train, as 6pdr says, Durnford's way of thinking became a potential blockage to their plans and had to be controlled. His attachment to the Colensos was a perfect excuse to marginalise him.
I would be interested to see evidence of a negative attitude to Durnford by the Army during this time (I discount the Colonists). All I have found so far sings his praises and it is reflected in his appointments. You can never discount the old boy network at this time but I think it is much more than that.
At the end of the day, it should be remembered that Chelmsford knew the game was up after Isandhlwana and would be replaced as soon as Wolseley was in a position to relieve him of command (and so he hurriedly mounted the second invasion). And of course Frere was summoned home in 1880 and censured for his actions once Gladstone was in power. Compared to them, Durnford comes out of it all with much the better reputation in my view.
But lets keep looking.
Steve
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8231 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 75 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:16 pm
Hi Steve I think if Durnford had come out of 1879 with an enhanced reputation we wouldn't be discussing him so much. But in general the balance of the participants reputations were in tatters. I posted some where on this thread that I firmly believe the rumours about Durnford and Fanny were started by a PMB society that never forgave him for the comments he made after BP, not because of any actions. Again I would contend that if he had published a ( False I know ) glowing tribute to the fallen colonists, he would have been a lionised member of the 'circle'.
Cheers
6pdr
Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:37 pm
rusteze wrote:
Your right Frank about the date of the extracts I posted. I think it is helpful, in drawing out a picture of Durnford, to seek out references to him in the years between BRP and Isandhlwana. We should not be overly influenced by attitudes towards him once the Frere/Chelmsford conspiracy to start a war with the Zulu had begun. Once that was in train, as 6pdr says, Durnford's way of thinking became a potential blockage to their plans and had to be controlled. His attachment to the Colensos was a perfect excuse to marginalise him.
I would be interested to see evidence of a negative attitude to Durnford by the Army during this time (I discount the Colonists). All I have found so far sings his praises and it is reflected in his appointments. You can never discount the old boy network at this time but I think it is much more than that.
Fervent agreement that quotes prior to the big events are invaluable because they represent what people thought of his character before they started letting responses to the Boundary Commission and Isandlwana fit their image of him to their politics.
I also take Frank's point about not underestimating the power of the old boy network. Certainly it is partially responsible for Durnford having opportunities after his breakdown etc...
But I would also point out that in a sense Frank also agrees with what you and I are saying. At least that's MY interpretation of his supposition that had Durnford simply extolled the Carabineers in the local newspaper he would have been/remained part of the inner circle (or at least until the boundary decision.)
It's an interesting question as to whether becoming an outcast opened his mind to the Colensos or whether he was the type of man to seek out more than ordinary colonial society could offer to begin with. Might be a chicken or an egg proposition but then again, it's been awhile since I read Jeff Guy. He might have something to say on that topic.
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8231 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 75 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:57 pm
I love reading Jeff, but you do have to look carefully. He was an ardent Marxist, I don't decry that but it did colour his views. Ive got an impromptu map he drew of Isandlwana and I have to admit its been a cornerstone of my thinking re disposition. And yes I do agree with your thoughts to a great degree. And I cant stress enough the esteem that the graduates were held in. The Hurah Henries did look down on them, but that was a fare mixture of jealousy and envy plus sheer bloody snobbishness. Gordon was a key figure in Durnfords rehab, Durnford and the Colensos were always going to find each other, Jeffs book on the Colensos is a classic, if you haven't read it, do it.
Cheers
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:02 pm
The truth is that Frances Ellen loved Durnford deeply! as all know her book published under the name of Atherton Wylde was written when she was beset by grief..and was in effect a love letter to him.. i too need to read Guy again. the view across the river, and his last work about shepstone, also rees's letters from Natal, i will have a look later this evening..xhosa
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:07 pm
And i don't think Guys politics has any bearing on anything.. what were you thoughts when you wrote that springbok. my last few post concerning you seem to lack your usual context and some you don't answer at all. regarding my thinking for myself for instance, springs to mind as i type. xhosa
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8231 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 75 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:17 pm
Evening Les Nothing intended my friend. I am again in hospital and my allocated time to use my laptop is limited, Plus I get very tetchy, stroppy bastard is my wives description. I do believe that Jeffs political leanings were everything about his works and views, Hopefully some time next year I will be able expand it
Guest Guest
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:26 pm
Sorry man, i did not know you was in dock! take it easy your health is more important than any of this. Les
6pdr
Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:44 pm
springbok9 wrote:
I am again in hospital and my allocated time to use my laptop is limited, Plus I get very tetchy, stroppy bastard is my wives description.
I am very unhappy to hear that Frank! Bloody unfair time of year to find yourself laid up. Is this why you have been waking up at ungodly hours of the morning? Well, I won't blame you if you don't want to "share" (in the American sense) details here but you really should have mentioned being in hospital sooner. I hope they can get you home before Santa arrives.
Quote :
I do believe that Jeffs political leanings were everything about his works and views, Hopefully some time next year I will be able expand it
How can a writer's political views NOT inform his/her work? Being a Marxist doesn't preclude fairness any more than any other political leaning. And even some of the most prominent AZW historians seem to have looked at East South African history from the Marxist angle when writing on political solutions to the issues of labor and population control.
That said, THE VIEW ACROSS THE RIVER is simply an amazing piece of scholarship IMO. (This doesn't imply you anyone has to agree with its conclusions but we must grapple with the breadth and depth of the research.)
Regardless, get well soon Frank. We need you here in full fighting trim!
rusteze
Posts : 2872 Join date : 2010-06-02
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:42 pm
Echo that Frank. Hope you can quickly have done with these purveyors of snake oil and get back on the road.
All the very best.
Steve
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:57 am
Sprinkbok, sorry to hear your back in hospital. Is it the routine checkup stage. Or have you been over doing in again.
ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:33 am
Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Sprinkbok, sorry to hear your back in hospital. Is it the routine checkup stage. Or have you been over doing in again.
Bonjour Frank, Écho CTE If only Mister Jackson was in thé same hospital... All thé best. amitié Frédéric
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8231 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 75 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:05 pm
CTSG Spent a few days under observation, later today they are putting in a couple of stents so should be out tomorrow all being well. Ymob Believe me if David was in the same ward he wouldn't get to much peace and quiet.
Cheers
90th
Posts : 10482 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 66 Location : Melbourne, Australia
Springy , if you and DJ were in the same hospital , let alone ward , the hospital wouldnt have much peace or quiet ! , I'd like to be as sure as winning the Lottery that'd be the case ! LOL 90th
6pdr
Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:28 pm
90th wrote:
Springy , if you and DJ were in the same hospital , let alone ward , the hospital wouldnt have much peace or quiet !
I'm sure they wouldn't stay in the general population. They'd listen to the patter for only so long before moving the two of them to a mental ward.
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24
Subject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:57 pm
What a documentary that would make. Two old codgers putting the Zulu War to right. Both wired to the moon, and intravenous fed mulled wine.
Get one of the nurses to chuck in a few quotes from Drooglever.
Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass