Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass

Springbok wrote:

An Eagle bold with haughty crest

"Someone who is haughty is arrogant and full of pride. When you're haughty, you have a big attitude and act like you're better than other people.
A haughty person acts superior and looks down on others. Haughty people are disdainful, overbearing, prideful, swaggering, and obnoxious. Acting amazed that others haven't heard of a hot new band is haughty. Speaking in a cocky or superior way is haughty. The word even sounds a little like its meaning: it's hard to say haughty without sounding like you have an attitude. If you're acting like others are beneath you, you're being haughty."

Thanks to xhosa's post we can see Durnford's Horse Chieftain was indeed at Bushman's River Pass , and we also know he was at Isandlwana . I think it was 6pdr who wished to know , possibly on another thread ? .
90th

Hi SAS
Much better than my attempt to define it.

Cheers

xhosa2000 wrote:

Did you mean that! what is it you really want? wheres your
postings? your own thoughts..anything..i would be most 
interested to hear your take..only last night you was asking
me for information on Durnford! dont you have anything? 
that is not on the net? anything..

Not wishing to relight the fire, not that there is one to light. Xhosa is asking CTSG to give his own take and information on Durnford that is not on the net, yet I have seen nothing from Xhosa that is his own. Just find it odd that someone is asking someone else to do something they can't do themselves.
Don't normally get involved in arguments of such, but Xhosa did annoy me when I saw his sudden change of attidude.

Good piece Springbok, well thought out! my bias comment
stems from Stalkers limited take on the BRP incident which
i feel glossed over the NC's involvement, which is to be
expected in a Regimental history from that period.  xhosa

Yes 90th i expected you to notice that..well spotted.
                                                           xhosa

littlehand wrote:

Click Here
Pages 95 to 175 some information about BP and Isandlwana and some other bits.

LH Good to see you posting again, thanks for the link. A lot of pages to get through.

Just read there is a monument in the Market Square of . Maritzburg erected by the Natal Carbineers and the Colonists in memory of Robert Henry Erdcine, Edwin Bond, and Charles Davie Potterill, and Elijah Kambule and Katana, loyal natives, who fell " in discharge of their duty " at the Bushman Rivet Pass on the 4th November 1873.
Been looking for a photo of the Monument no joy, can any members help.

springbok9 wrote:

That particular post is taken from Stalker. The actual statement is also in Stalker, the statement was made within a short space of time, the poem was 20 years after.

Cheers

"The History of the Regiment from its Foundation. 15th January 1855 to 30th June 1911.
Edited by the Rev John Stalker, MA
P David & Sons, Pietermaritzburg and Durban 1912.

Introduction

Chapter I.—Volunteering
Chapter II.—Bushman Raid
Chapter III.—Isidoi and Matyana
Chapter IV.—A Zulu War-cloud
Chapter V.—A Basuto Incursion
Chapter VI.—Cetywayo's Coronation
Chapter VII.—Langalibalele, 1873
Chapter VIII.—The Zulu War, 1879
Chapter IX.—The Boer War, 1899-1902 and Boer War diary
Chapter X.—The Native Rebellion, 1906-7
Chapter Annals:—1855—1911 including Rules of the Natal Carbineers
Appendix 1.—Races
Appendix 2.—Shooting Competitions
Appendix 3.—Athletic Sports
Appendix 4.—Cricket
Appendix 5.—Regimental Lists:—
(a)—Officers, 1855-1911
(b)—Muster Roll, of the Natal Carbineers, Boer War, 1899-1902

Illustrations

(see the Natal Carbineers unit page)
Addison, C. B., Lt.-Col
Barter, W. E., Lt.-Col
Baker, W. G
Bond, E., Trooper
Buntine, R. A., Major
Burkimsher, W., R.-S.-Major
Bowen, B., R.-S.-Major ..
Band, Regimental, 1908
Barker, W. W., Trooper
Clough, E. B., Trooper
Crompton, B., Lt.-Col
Currie, O. J., Major
Currie, H. B., Lieut
Chum-Chum
Erskine, R. H., Trooper
Farmer, F. C, Sergt
Foxon, F. E., Lieut.-Col
Green, Dean
Greene, E. M., Colonel
Gage, W. T., Major
Hyslop, J., Lt.-Col
Helbert, G. H., Capt
Hair, A., Lt.-Col
Kitchener, Lord
Karkloof Troop
Knott, W., R.-S.-Major
Lyle, A., Captain
Langalibalele, Chief
Memorial, Isandhlwana
Memorial, Bushman's Pass
Memorial, Boer War
McKenzie, D., Colonel
Macfarlane, G. J., Lt.-Col
Mackay, D. W., Lt.-Col
Molyneux, W. H. A., R.-S.-Major
Montgomery, J. W. V., Major
Miller, C. E. J. Trooper
Non-Commissioned Officers, 1865
Non-Commissioned Officers, 1879
Non-Commissioned Officers, 1882
Non-Commissioned Officers, 1887
Non-Commissioned Officers, 1907
Officers, Umlaas Camp, 1889
Officers, Reitspruit Camp, 1892
Officers, Balgowan Camp, 1899
Officers, Siege of Ladysmith, 1899
Taylor's Camp, 1905
Colenso Camp, 1909
Colenso Camp, 1911
Owen, T. M., Major
Otto, Pete, Lieut
Park Gray, W., Major
Royston, W., Colonel
Rodwell, C. N. H., Lieut.-Col
St. George, Sir T., Lieut.-Col
Shepstone, "Offy," Capt
Sutherland, P. C, Doctor
Sergeants, 1892
Sergeants, 1894
Shooting Team, 1895
Sergeants, 1898
Shepstone, W. S., Lieut.-Col
Shaw, D., Trooper
Stride, P. W. Captain
Sergeants, Colenso Camp, 1909
Sergeants, Colenso Camp, 1911
Tatham, G. F., Major
Taunton, C. E. Major
Tent Pegging Team , 1909
Townsend, A. C, Major
Weighton, J., Colonel
Woods, J. P. S., Lieut.-Col
Watts, R., Trooper

Droogleever, R. W. F. (1992) - The road to Isandhlwana. Col Anthony Durnford in Natal and Zululand 1873-1879. Pub by Presidio. ISBN 1-85367-118-5. [This is a handy hard-covered modern account of Durnford's calamitous experiences in Natal, the first half (130pp) of which is of interest to the 'Berg. Repackaged from his Doctoral dissertation, but readable.]

[2 November 1873 evening]…..Durnford relied on his guide Hlubi, the young Sotho chief, whom he had appointed to the expedition on the strength of his people having hunted in the area. It was soon to be discovered that he had only a limited knowledge of the area of operations. [ ….] The ascent of the Lotheni valley was a terrible ordeal. The men could not sit upon their mounts but had to pull them by the reins up the steep incline. As the going became more difficult the force began to string out as numbers of the less fit fell back with fatigue. On the climb, at about 10 a.m. [Nov 3] Durnford's horse Chieftain, a grey BaSotho pony, lost its footing, fell down a steep decline dragging Durnford with it. One of the Carbineers declared that Durnford rolled head over heels like a ball bounding down, for about fifty yards. Possibly the horse rolled over him, for his injuries were many: a dislocated shoulder, two bruised ribs and a bad gash on his head. His sword scabbard was bent double and the sword, given to him by his father when he left for South Africa, could not be made to fit in it, so he gave the sword to his guide Hlubi to carry for him. The horse was uninjured. Durnford was then helped to his feet, someone made his shoulder as comfortable as possible, and he ordered the advance to continue. At noon he called another halt to allow the stragglers to catch up. He also sent a party of six Sotho to scout the top of the pass and to find out whether Langalibalele's people were ascending the Bush­man's Pass.

The worst of the ascent was still to come. Trooper Henry Bucknall of the Karkloof Troop (Natal Carbineers) recalled that everyone was too tired to give more than a passing glance at the stupendous masses of projecting rock above us like a rugged wall, half a mile high. We would scramble up 20 or 30 yards then sit down, scramble another 20, and sit down again, leading our horses, which made it much more tiring than it would have been without them, for in keeping out their way we would slip down at almost every step.

Soon after 2 p.m. the small force, which had by now been reduced to 36 white troopers and 15 Sotho crossed the Bhodla River, and followed the contour round a sharp spur. Captain Barter, a farmer in his fifties and a member of the executive council, was utterly exhausted. The climb before him appeared insuperable: The scene before us was savage in the extreme. Down the bare side of the mountain hung ribands of water, showing the spot to be the very birthplace and nursery of rivers; above, huge krantzes frowned while the masses of unburnt dry grass, hang­ing like a vast curtain, gave a sombre and malignant aspect to the scene.

 During the course of the night ride Durnford had been brought to the foot of the wrong pass. Through no fault of the guide HIubi, who in good faith had brought the troop to a pass believed to be the Giant's Castle Pass (even by some of the white troopers who had climbed this very pass before). Durnford was in fact, surveying the Hlatimba Pass six miles to the south of the Giant's Castle Pass. It was perhaps just as well that this error had been made for no horse would have been able to make a night ascent of the latter pass.

The day was to be an exhausting one. At sunset on 3 November 1873, some 100 yards from the top of the Hlatimba Pass, Durnford fainted from pain and fatigue. Trooper Robert Erskine, son of Natal's Colonial Secretary, hastened down to administer brandy to him and attend to his needs. Here Durnford's pain‑racked body got some rest at last. For the next five hours, attended by Elijah Kambule, Shepstone's interpreter, and by Erskine (both of whom got very little respite themselves), the major slept fitfully. He no doubt hoped that, in the interim, Lieutenant E. Parkinson, whom he had left behind on the ascent to pick up the stragglers and the remaining pack horses, would soon be joining him. The rest of the men struggled on to the top of the pass. At 9 p.m. Durnford was wakened by one of the scouts who had returned to report that men and cattle were moving up towards the Bushman's River Pass. There could be no further delay. At I p.m. Major Durnford prepared himself for the arduous climb to the top. He was in intense pain notwithstanding the aid given by his guide Hlubi, Kambule, Erskine and Hlubi's brother who each held a corner of a blanket and pulled him up by placing it behind him. They had to halt every two or three steps and lay him down on the ground to let him rest. It took him three hours to get up an ascent which would have taken him fifteen minutes if he had been fit. At the top of the Hlatimba Pass (9,323 feet above sea level) the men had tried to snatch a few hours' sleep in bitterly cold conditions. Soon after 2 a.m. [Nov 4] Durnford reached the summit, weary but determined, and ordered the men to saddle up and proceed. A little after 4:30 a.m. the Carbineers and the Sotho were on their way, moving by moonlight slowly across the spongy grass, over the ridges and scattered rocks. Durnford took the Sotho on ahead until they were about two or three miles from the rest of the troop. After about three hours of riding they reached the crest of a hill overlooking the valleys leading to the Bushman's Pass, and in the early light of dawn watched the Hlubi tribe's cattle being driven toward the pass. It was not an easy ascent and a number of beasts lost their footing and were killed in the fall on to the rocks below. Jabez Molife, one of the Sotho, was sent back to hasten on the white troopers. An hour after sunrise, about 6:15 a.m. on 4 November 1873, the troopers reached the hill overlooking the pass. On the spur to the left of the pass there were about 300 head of cattle and 30 herdboys."

The second is excerpted from:

Herd, Norman - The bent pine. The trial of Chief Langalibalele. Ravan Press, 1976. ISBN 086975 054 2. A 160 page readable work in handy pocket size format. Good background to Langalibalele, and all the players. More on colonial and English racial attitudes. Recommended.

At daybreak [on Monday Nov 3] the mist thickened and [Durnford’s] column entered Game Pass and commenced the long ascent of the Little Berg towards Giant's Castle. It was an exhilarating moment. With the rising of the sun the new, warm light played gently over the grasslands; the mists drained off the mountain, leaving the summit an indigo graphline against a pearly sky.

There was a lilt in the day and the horses were shaken up into a brisk canter.

    For Durnford, however, it was a time of mounting anxiety. There was no sign of the missing pack‑animals or the men who had gone in search of them. The baTlokwa were ordered to share their rations with the volunteers ‑ it was a meagre spread and they would all be ravenous before the mission was completed. The shortage of rations was serious enough. But it was not the gravest matter of concern.

According to instructions the party should now be heading along the escarpment towards the Bushman's River Pass. But they were still working their way through the foothills, a long way short of the mountain. They had journeyed many miles further than the distance shown on Durnford's map, yet the pass marked for their own ascent was nowhere in sight.

They were, in fact, hopelessly lost.

Durnford anxiously consulted the guides, who assured him they could show him another way up the mountain. It was a difficult climb and his party would be many more hours on the way. But it was the only course to take.

They pressed on. The morning freshness gave way to a steam­ing summer heat. The ground became rougher and steeper. The column lengthened as exhausted riders dropped behind. By midday the leading file had reached the heights above the valley of the Loteni and headed down the long steep slope to the floor. They crossed the Loteni River and commenced to labour up the other slope. So precipitous was this hill, wrote Charles Barter, that in any other setting it would be viewed as a mountain. 'Here several of the Natal Carbineers succumbed, of whom three made their way back.' Horses and men struggled up by a suc­cession of springs and rushes.'

    Durnford pushed on with tremendous purpose. His compan­ions said afterwards that he ignored their advice to tack across the steeply ascending and rock‑strewn pathway, thus saving his mount the punishment of a direct thrust against the awful gra­dient. He went straight up and the animal weakened under the strain. Eventually it stumbled and fell back while being led tip a precipitous incline, and Durnford rolled and bounced down the incline, striking against rocks and ending with a dislocated shoulder, broken ribs and severe cuts about the head and face. After some emergency attention he was helped on to his horse and the cavalcade rode on. They crossed a river and struggled up yet another appalling slope, slithering and gasping. Barter now had little heart or physical endurance to continue the journey and had to be en­couraged by his men to carry on.

At length, a thin file of weary horsemen with parched throats and empty bellies, seated slackly on labouring mounts, they came within sight of the pass towards which they had been mov­ing for about 22 hours, with one or two short snatches out of the saddle. They had entered a vast amphitheatre ‑ a wild and savage place. Here, they were confronted by the main wall of the Drakensberg. Down the bare side of the mountain hung ribands of water, showing the spot to be the very birthplace and nursery of rivers; above them huge krantzes frowned, while the masses of long coarse grass, hanging like a vast curtain, gave a sombre and malignant aspect to the scene.

The pass lay before them, a little way to the left. It was a daunting prospect. The sun was setting and darkness was not far away.

Durnford was mistaken in thinking that he had brought his detachment, now drastically reduced in numbers, to the Giant's Castle Pass. But for this error he could hardly be blamed since he had been badly misdirected, literally from the start. It seems he had been taken along the wrong route by the Basuto guides and fetched up at the Hlatimba Pass, a few kilometres to the south of Giant's Castle Pass. The latter is a gully, the upper por­tion of which is too steep and rocky to be ascended by a troop of mounted men, especially at night. Indeed it would challenge the toughness, agility and sure‑footedness of a Basuto pony. The Hlatimba Pass, on the other hand, is just negotiable by horse­men.

Durnford, anxiously contemplating the lost hours and the approach of darkness, decided to tackle the climb without fur­ther delay. It was nearly two miles of grim going. 'How we slip­ped and struggled,' wrote Charles Barter; 'fell to get up and struggle again, or lay panting on the ground, despairing of accomplishing the task, would be tedious to tell.' The last part of the ascent was terrific, 'among boulders of immense size, on sloping ground, offering no hold for anything but a naked foot'. Sergt. Meredith Fannin was the first man up, shortly after sunset. Barter did not make it until about 8 p.m.

Durnford, after a valiant struggle, collapsed a short distance from the summit. It was essential to rest his exhausted and pain­wracked body. His companions made up a rough bed, packed with dried grass to fill up the uneveness of the ground. There he lay for several hours, sleeping fitfully. Trooper Robert Erskine, son of the Colonial Secretary (Major D. Erskine) elected to stay behind and attend him.

Erskine was, at 27, an advocate of the Supreme Court, and regarded as a fine young man with a promising future. He had taken severe punishment on the ride to the pass and was dis­covered at one stage, stretched out on the grass, utterly exhaust­ed. Then shaking off all self‑concern, he applied himself to nurs­ing his commanding officer with unremitting care. Twice, it was reported, did he toil up the pass to fetch brandy and other items to comfort the stricken man. Remembering him later, Durnford said, 'He tended me as my brother might have done.'

Early in the morning the baTlokwa, who had been sent to scout ahead, returned with the news that cattle were being driv­en up the Bushman's River Pass. At around 2 a.m., Durnford arrived at the top of the Hlatimba Pass, having been hauled up the remaining distance from his resting‑place with the aid of a blanket. He carried his left arm in a sling. Though physically in poor shape, he was determined to press on. But the flesh, it seemed, was weaker than that iron spirit, and while his men were saddling up he fainted. He allowed himself a bare 30 minutes to recover and then asked to be lifted into the saddle.

They moved off, proceeding due north over ground which was alternately rocky and spongy. The going was agonisingly slow, so much so that they did not reach their destination, a bare 18 kilometres distant from the Hlatimba Pass, until about 6:30 a.m.

Good post last night Littlehand, as you said not very much
on the BRP, but one of the book ref's reminded me of a book
i needed to have! which has now been tracked down.. xhosa

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Droogleever's Map

Herd's account above evidently does not quite place Durnford's fall where Drooglever's map does.

This from my library.. i dont know how many of this, exist's.
obviously the Author, Natal University and the Well known Zulu
War Author Keith Smith recounts how he had to photocopy every
single page and have it bound there and then to obtain his copy.
the Regiment at Brecon was presented with one. so you can only
imagine how rare this is. i'm posting the following pages for the
benefit of Springbok and other's who might like to see an alternative
to Stalker..and again this is for the first time anywhere in the uk
and possibly the world..not off the net. as said from my library!
for those who think ( wrongly ) that i have nothing of my own. xhosa

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Images are not to clear. Here's the link to the artical.

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"MR. E.F. FORD, MARITZBURG
Death: 15 June 1924 , in Pietermaritzburg, Natal, South Africa

Buried: 23 June 1924, in the Wesleyan cemetery, Pietermaritzburg, Natal, South Africa

Obituary: 
Natal Mercury Saturday 28 June 1924: 
OBITUARY.

OBITUARY 
MR. E.F. FORD, MARITZBURG
   On Sunday, June 15, there passed away at Maritzburg another of the few remaining Old Colonists in the person of Mr. E.F. (Ted) Ford, who arrived at Durban, with his parents, at the early age of 13 years by the sailing ship, Phantom, in July, 1858, after a trying voyage of over three months. 
   Mr. Edward Ford, sen., settled in Durban for about 12 months and then came on to Maritzburg in 1859, and started business as a blacksmith at what is now known as "Ingleside," in Longmarket Street, just above the Park Hotel, and at this early age Mr. Ford started his apprenticeship with his father, often being called up in the early hours of the morning to blow the bellows and strike, as the heat was so oppressive during the day. 
   After a few years the business was moved to the now familiar corner of Longmarket and Chapel Streets, where it has seen the City grow from a few cottages here and there to its present state. On the death of his father, Mr. Ford acquired the business and made considerable extensions, securing the sole agency for the great British engineering firm of Messrs. Marshall Son & Sons, of London and Gainsborough, an agency the firm holds to the present day. In the early days Mr. Ford was successful in securing the orders for machinery for many of the leading mines and in addition had a good connection throughout Natal and the Transvaal in the carriage and coachbuilding business. 
   The deceased was one of the foundation members of the Maritzburg Rifles, and later joined the Natal Royal Rifles but as horsemanship appealed to him more strongly, he transferred to the City troop of the Natal Carbineers and was one who volunteered for the Langalibalele expedition, and his reminiscences of the stirring experiences of this gallant troop in the Bushman's Pass under Colonel Durnford, were always most interesting. Incidentally, he was believed to be the last survivor of this expedition unless a Mr. Church of Durban is still alive. He had with him as half-section Mr. Bond, who was killed along with Potterill and Erskine, the fatal bullet passing Mr. Ford and striking Bond. The Langalibalele Monument in the Market Gardens, Maritzburg, bears testimony to the noble efforts of this troop of the Natal Carbineers. 
   In 1872 Mr Ford left for the Vaal River diamond diggings, along with three or four chums, amongst whom was the late Mr. Kit Bird, a former Colonial Secretary of Natal. Mr. Ford used to relate how the party missed a small fortune, for it seems that after working for a week or a fortnight digging and carting the precious soil that was to end all trouble financially, they decided to commence the washing and sorting. The first wash gave them great hopes, for they secured five small stones, and a neighbouring camp, amongst whom was the late Durant (Dan) Scott, came along and offered them £10,000 for the heap. This offer they refused, but to their dismay, they went right through the remainder of the heap and never found another stone. 
   When Mr. Ford arrived back in Maritzburg he continued his business which, during his absence, had been carried on by his brother, Mr. Tom Ford. Some years later great excitement ran through Maritzburg when gold was found in various places in close proximity, notably Table Mountain. Mr. Ford, who then owned the only steam engine in the town, set to work to make a crusher, and as the prospectors brought their samples along, so he crushed and tested them, along with his old friends Dr. Sutherland and Mr. Joe Shaw. Unfortunately for the sake of Maritzburg and Natal, although signs of the precious metal were found, none of the samples proved profitable. 
   The deceased gentleman was an intimate friend of the late Bishop Colenso, and many were the experiences he could relate of the unhappy breach in the English Church in those early days. It was he who suggested and eventually erected, the now familiar church bells in the grounds of St. Peter's Cathedral, photographs of which have been taken and sent to all parts of the world. He undertook the making of the ironwork for the first footbridge over the Umsindusi River into the Alexandra Park, and also stood security for the contractor, Mr. Tom Harding, and the writer will never forget hearing him tell of the anxious afternoon when the bridge was just about finished, and a very heavy storm broke over Zwartkop, the river rising and rising until everyone thought the bridge must go. The storm, however, happily abated, but it is on record that it was the highest the river has ever come down.
  Some years after the Boer War, Mr. Ford gave up the worries of business to his sons, and took on the planting of his country property in the Chase Valley with citrus and ornamental trees. The Kingston Lodge orchards, comprising approximately 40 acres in the pick of the valley, have become renowned for the quality of their fruit, and year after year at the exhibitions of the Royal Agricultural Society Mr. Ford took premier honours with the citrus productions of his late estate, and the magnificent displays of flowers from the estate are quite a feature of the various Maritzburg shows.
  Although never taking an active part in public life, he was keenly interested in things municipal and governmental, and was a staunch supporter of Natal remaining out of the Union, and up till three years ago never lost interest in the old established business that bears his name. 
   He married, in the year 1877, Emily, the eldest daughter of the late William Risley, by whom he is survived, the marriage bearing seven sons and two daughters, of whom one daughter (Mrs. J.H. King, of Umlaas Road) and six sons (Alf, John, Cliff, George, Rupert, Wilfred) are still living, five being with the business in Maritzburg and one resident in Durban. 
   Although in indifferent health for the past three years, the end was painfully sudden at the ripe old age of 80 years and 2 months. Of a kind & lovable disposition, and a devoted husband and father, he will be sadly missed by his sorrowing wife and family, to whom the deepest sympathy will be extended. The many beautiful floral tributes bore testimony to the esteem in which the deceased was held by those who had the privilege of his friendship. 
  The funeral which was attended by a very large number of mourners and friends of the old pioneer, took place at the Wesleyan Cemetery, Maritzburg, on Monday afternoon, the Rev. Canon Harris, of St. Peter's Cathedral Church, officiating."

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Looking Down Langalibalele Pass
Source Boz North's Trail. 

Blimey LH slow down. You must be playing catchup. Thanks for the information. Will start ploughing through it tomorrow. Just off to collect my brother from the airport. Echo impi good to see you posting again.

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

Blimey LH slow down. You must be playing catchup. Thanks for the information. Will start ploughing through it tomorrow. Just off to collect my brother from the airport. Echo impi good to see you posting again.

Hi Les
I do have portions of the document you posted. As per Stalker that document produced by the Univ Natal also has faults and discrepancies.
A key area is the reference to the naming of Clark as being responsible, to a degree. The Thesis mentions the first mention by Marter as being in a letter of the 8th November when in fact the first mention was in Marters detailed statement from Meshlynn on the 6th. He is unequivocal in posting the blame on Clark.
A mention was made that none of the troops were prepared to back up the story of Clark, that is explained later in the discourse by pointing out the position Clark held and the fact he had commanded parades for a number of years. I sure as hell would never have criticised my own S/Major, the bugger terrified everyone in the regiment, including the Colonel. But that wasn't unusual so I would be highly surprised if any of the rank and file 'dropped him in it."

All the above is beside the point and not germain to the discussion really, its point being was Durnford at fault?

Any of those statements exonerate Durnford from blame in the deaths. There are however still questions on his not accepting/wanting advice and not turning back to locate the correct pass closer to ground level. Question for you............. was it because of the wrong path decision that caused a separation of the supplies?
Cheers

Hi Littlehand
Thanks for posting the memorial to those KIA Bushman's River Pass .
90th

Hey Frank, i always keep in mind the name of the
topic on the other thread...' Durnford was he capable? '.
there is so much bias about him it borders on the side
of farcical at times, after all he was just one man!..

Everything that could go wrong at the BRP seemed to be 
' set in stone ' from the very outset. much more revealing
to me regarding Durnford..are his action's in the immediate
aftermath of the pass debacle..

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Les
I think the point I was trying to make was exactly what you've just alluded to. A cock up from the start: provisions go missing, so hungry and cold men. Wrong pass climbed, footsore and a few injuries. Wrong cross country route, even more disillusioned, can I say P****D Off troopers. Were they in the mood for a fight? Or were they hopping because the white Baas told them to do something the natives would instantly obey?
I have no doubt that it was Clark that started the rot and from there it escalated. And the 'families' of Natal/PMB closed ranks. But I do believe that Durnford should have been a bigger man, he wasn't and bottled it all up. Link that to loosing out on the Fort Pine issue and I think we have a man absolutely desperate to prove himself.
Cheers
PS I, wrong or right, also believe the 'families' were behind the rumour mongering that linked him to Fanny, romantically that is.
Whatever conclusions you draw he was certainly an Enigma. And that's why so many column inches are devoted to the man.
PPS Don't believe everything you read in Drooglever. He has interpreted the exact same documents that, Knight Greaves Smith Whybra Jackson Morris et al have. Its just the way you cross your legs when reading them.

Springbok wrote:

Don't believe everything you read in Drooglever. He has interpreted the exact same documents that, Knight Greaves Smith Whybra Jackson Morris et al have.

How refreshing it is to hear that, I was starting to think Drooglever was the be and end all, and held the answers to every question. Thank god your on board Springbok.

Ulundi
Don't get me wrong, his thesis is damned good. But its impossible to write on the Zulu wars without becoming personal. Once that happens your views get slanted.

Cheers

At the end of the day, Durnford was in command. It all went tits up. So he shoulders the responsibility.
Take it on the chin don't blame others for your failings.

I agree with all of that Frank, as For Drooglever..apart from 
the Blue Book's and PP's i have read no one in the public 
domain who comes close to matching his thesis.. and that
includes all the people you cited, and you missed out JY.
its as you say all open to interpretation.. the Blues Books
and PP's are official versions.. but at least we can all get
some sense of the man. if there are more accounts out
there of Durnford then i have'nt seen them, but then i know
next to nothing compared to some, and other's know even less
than that!                                                              xhosa

springbok9 wrote:

Ulundi
Don't get me wrong, his thesis is damned good. But its impossible to write on the Zulu wars without becoming personal. Once that happens your views get slanted.

Cheers

I'm not saying it isn't good. But just of late, it's all that's ever posted, in response to nearly everything. Still if that's all there is to go on might as well beat it to death.

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

At the end of the day, Durnford was in command. It all went tits up. So he shoulders the responsibility.
Take it on the chin don't blame others for your failings.

And thats exactly the same point that's been made many many times about Chelmsford. 'At the end of the day, Durnford/Chelmsford was in command. It all went tits up. So he shoulders the responsibility

Something about, Having cake and eating it maybe?

Les
I also missed out Jackson L and Q Lee Stevenson etc etc. They were just a representative that sprung to mind.
I was attempting to show that there are a limited amount of documents. All the authors have them, they formulate an opinion based on the weight they give to one or more of those. Modern writers are tending to look at things from a less than traditional viewpoint. That's why I love to read L and Q. They come through different doors and come up with different concepts. They have the ability to make you think and that brings me to your last comments. Your not thinking for yourself but more than happy tp allow others, Drooglever et al, to think for you. I would have dearly loved to have a bloke like David Jackson really allow his imagination to fly free and fill in the gaps, and then publish the bloody thing. Theres so much locked into that brain.

90th
Couple of good results coming up. And Englands going to get a new captain, Cooks on his way out.

Cheers

Thanks for that Frank, interesting that you think ' that
i don't think for myself '..its certainly true that i don't 
run much with flight's of fancy and superposition, i
tend to present what is already in the public domain
and unless new evidence comes to light that is really
all i can do..now people are saying that Drooglever is
out of date..well stop and think about that! who since
has presented anything new and fresh about Durnford?
i of course take account of all post Drooglever Historians
and Authors, in the main they tend to rehash most of 
what is already known!. nothing new is added, and that's
maybe because there is'nt anything..

But if there is anybody out there currently working on the
definitive account of all thing's AWD. then i for one would 
be very excited at the prospect, i note and if you look back
on this thread it becomes strikingly apparent, that those 
who are sick of the back teeth of my repeated offerings
from Drooglever have not offered much if anything at all to
this debate.. Drooglever's work in my humble opinion is one
of the definitive accounts of Durnford's life..if anybody does 
not agree with that, would they please tell me about any other
major work i have been missing for all this time..and by the
way..has anybody tried to see if they can obtain a copy of
Drooglever. i thought that you Frank living where you do
would be best placed..                        cheers      xhosa

I think this thread does hold out the prospect of throwing some fresh light on the attitudes and actions of Colonel Durnford. It gives us the opportunity to look at those five years between BRP and Isandhlwana that shaped Durnford's views about the colony.

It is of course right that the sources of information are known and have been interpreted by many authors, but Les is also right that Drooglever's account is the most substantial.
Drooglever's thesis is a rare beast in comparison to his widely available book and Les has been kind enough to share some of it with us. The thesis apparently contains much that is not in the book and it is that information that is new to the majority of us - so there is fresh meat to chew over if we can tease out the additional stuff.

I recently came across S Bourquin's account of Durnford on the SAMHS site (Vol.16 No.5). I am sure most of you have read it. One particular passage stands out for me as explaining much about Durnford's later attitude. Bourquin recounts the abhorrent actions of the colonials at the time and their outrageous persecution of the Phuthini following the Langalibalele affair (amounting to slavery). It is easy to see why Durnford had little time for them (and neither did the British Government) and why the war in 1879 was but the culmination of such attitudes. It is worth a close read.

Durnford by S Bourquin (SAMHS Vol16 No5)

"It was almost a year later that Governor Pine yielded to the persistent clamour by the colonists to have the name of the Carbineers vindicated. A court of inquiry was constituted in November 1874 to consider the Bushman's River Pass affair. In the court's judgement 'the Carbineers were guilty of a disorganised and precipitate retreat, with, however, mitigating circumstances'. These mitigating circumstances were, no doubt, found to soften the verdict and placate the feelings of the colonists. Some of the mitigating circumstances accepted by the court were the Carbineers' youth, the fact that they had no previous experience in battle, that they were tired and hungry, that they were strained having travelled over almost impassable country, and that they had been frightened by Sgt Clark's unbridled expression of fear that they would all be killed. (In regard to the question of age, contemporary photographs show an appreciable number of fully-bearded men and the ages of the troopers who were killed were 22, 23 and 27).

Durnford himself was dissatisfied with the proceedings of the court of inquiry which excluded from the hearing any Imperial officer or soldier on the grounds that the inquiry was 'a pure volunteer (Carbineer) question'. This did not prevent General Sir A.T. Cunynghame, the GOC British troops in South Africa, stating in his covering report on the court's proceedings: 'It is but fair here to observe upon the steadiness and bravery of Major Durnford, regarding which the volunteers gave ample testimony, and upon whom they appeared to have the utmost reliance. Shaken, indeed almost paralysed, by a fall with his horse over a dangerous precipice, he never shrank from his duty, and, although severely wounded in two places, he used his utmost exertions to rally the retiring troops'.

Durnford was recommended for the CMG but the only recognition he received for his services was in the nature of compensation for his wounds and permanent disablement of his left arm. He was granted a pension of UK PNDS100 per annum, of which, as was discovered at the time of his death some five years later, he never drew one penny. He was a proud man and had once asserted that 'he did not sell his blood'.

The Phuthini (amaNqwe) tribesmen had been neighbours of the amaHlubi and over the years had also frequently intermarried, and prior to Langalibalele's flight from Natal he had left his old people, some women and children and some cattle in the came of the Phuthini. Immediately following the debacle at the Bushman's River Pass - and possibly also because of resentment at Langalibalele's escape - Shepstone considered this proof of rebellious intentions and collusion with Langalibalele on the part of the Phuthini and decided that the tribe should be 'eaten up' according to native fashion.

The raid which followed was one of the most cynical and cruel actions by White men against Blacks in the history of Natal. Without warning and without obvious reason the Phuthini were attacked, driven from their homes and sealed up in the caves in which they had sought shelter. Their huts were burnt down, their possessions, provisions and crops were destroyed and their cattle confiscated. Over 200 men, women and children were killed, and 500 were taken prisoner and virtually enslaved to White farmers.

Durnford writes in disgust that 'boys from 12 to 14 years were given out to volunteers and others as servants for 7 years at one shilling a month pay for the first three years; no papers. One farmer boasted that he had caused so many to be killed; another boasts that he has done more'. He was greatly distressed by the unjust and harsh treatment meted out to the Phuthini. He greatly deprecated the atrocities committed by volunteer units and their Native levies, and found but little consolation in the fact that none of the troops under his command had been involved. Durnford was not alone in his condemnation - the Colensos and a few other right-thinking persons felt the same. Even the British Government became concerned and Earl Carnarvon, then Secretary of State for Colonies, lost no time in making it clear to Governor Pine that the evidence before him did not support the allegation that the Phuthini had been in collusion with Langalibalele and he could find no justification for the ill-treatment imposed on them. He ordered all possible reparation to be made forthwith. The Natal Government was as recalcitrant and even slower in carrying out the British Government's order than Langalibalele had been in carrying out theirs. It took many months before all the members of the tribe were released from captivity. While the tribe's losses in cattle, land and other possessions amounted to an estimated UK PNDS40 000, the Natal Government granted them compensation to the value of UK PNDS12 000 (realised from the sale of confiscated cattle) - and even spread the payment of this amount over a number of years!"

Steve

Thank's for your remark's Steve, that was very kind! i was toying with the 
idea of posting some of the above, but realized that for some, the mere
fact that i open my mouth is like a red rag to a bull! so glad you have
furthered the debate in this way. which highlights yet another aspect of
Durnford's character.. i doubt the Phuthini saw much of that compensation!.
                                                                                              xhosa

rusteze wrote:

I think this thread does hold out the prospect of throwing some fresh light on the attitudes and actions of Colonel Durnford. It gives us the opportunity to look at those five years between BRP and Isandhlwana that shaped Durnford's views about the colony.

It is of course right that the sources of information are known and have been interpreted by many authors, but Les is also right that Drooglever's account is the most substantial.
Drooglever's thesis is a rare beast in comparison to his widely available book and Les has been kind enough to share some of it with us. The thesis apparently contains much that is not in the book and it is that information that is new to the majority of us - so there is fresh meat to chew over if we can tease out the additional stuff.

I recently came across S Bourquin's account of Durnford on the SAMHS site (Vol.16 No.5). I am sure most of you have read it. One particular passage stands out for me as explaining much about Durnford's later attitude. Bourquin recounts the abhorrent actions of the colonials at the time and their outrageous persecution of the Phuthini following the Langalibalele affair (amounting to slavery). It is easy to see why Durnford had little time for them (and neither did the British Government) and why the war in 1879 was but the culmination of such attitudes. It is worth a close read.

I had not read that account, so thank you for posting it. IMO, fwiw, it is entirely consistent with what we already knew of the man and his opponents from the Colensos et. al. And that breech (if you can call it such) was never healed of course. Having already been found a scapegoat once, he was measured and fitted to play that role again after Isandlwana.

Well I guess if he had done things correct the first time he would have been the scapegoat on the two occasions.

If you mean the BRP as ' the first time ' you have not been
following the thread closely enough..Durnford cannot be 
blamed for the collective failure to stop the Hlubi..

John wrote:

Well I guess if he had done things correct the first time he would have been the scapegoat on the two occasions.

Done things correct?  How?  It was a no win assignment.  The only "correct" thing would have been to refuse it.  Durnford never lacked for initiative, zeal or physical courage.  To me his most obvious failing was a romantic belief that under stress others who celebrated those virtues in words would match them in deeds...as he was constantly seeking to do.  

Disdaining to touch the money he was paid for his trouble is a perfect example.  How many other men having sworn thus would actually have lived up to that course of action in practice?  Durnford seems to have done so without even publicly declaring his antipathy.  Men like that are rare...and therefore more often misunderstood.

I think you are absolutely right 6pdr. The only way the outcome could have been avoided was to refuse the impossible task!

I have come across a couple of further references to Durnford in the published diary of Lt. General Sir Charles Warren (On the Veldt in the Seventies). Warren was an interesting man, not least because he became Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police in 1886 and was in charge at the time of the infamous "Jack the Ripper" murders in London's East End in 1888 (another fascination of mine).

The quotes I have lifted from his book I think illustrate the standing of Durnford among serving soldiers (leaving aside Chelmsford).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve

"Was Durnford in command at Bushman's River Pass?
Yes. Not even you can wriggle him off that hook.

Was it a fiasco?
Yes. Complete and utter.

Were the Natal Carbineers born cowards or is it more likely that their commander put them into a wholly inadvisable, extremely high risk situation, as a direct consequence of which some of the men lost their nerve?
Obviously the latter.

Did Lord Chelmsford threaten Durnford with the sack in the week before Isandlwana?
Yes. The evidence is in black and white.

Am I right when I say that he was, professionally speaking, more a builder of roads and a maker of maps than a field commander.
Yes you know I'm correct."

Great stuff Steve, yes you can gauge a lot about a man by his word's alone.
sounds like an interesting read, must look out for it!  xhosa












Ctsg, i think your wrong on every level regarding Durnford! the Man,the Engineer,
the Soldier, the Human Being..........

Xhosa. Why do you say he's wrong. Is that you personal opinion, or based on your Drooglever book. I have seen many posts from you requesting other members use their own work, and information that is not on the web. So I have spend many hours going thought your posts, and guess what, there is nothing of your own work, so perhaps, you could enlighten us all, with you own words on Durnford and the events at BRP.

I expect you will sidestep this invertation. But it's worth a try. Back in the day there was a saying, "Don't ask someone to do something your not prepaired to do yourself. Looking forward to your take on BRP.
Still if you are happy posting one liners and photos, then that's fine.

hiya impi, yes thats my personal opinion, i post alone,
i don't need anyone to hold my hand or back me up!
( not saying that anyone on here does ( admin  )
i'm glad it took you many hours going through my 
old posts, that was a wise decision it will pay off in 
the long run. when you say my ' own work ' that is 
such a subjective thing to say..apart from the authors
and researchers who post here..there is no such thing as
ones own work.. we all drink from the same well so to
speak..i think your definition of work is wrong in the 
way you say. if i were to tot up the man hours it has took
to post what i have thus far, i think the total might well
surprise you..

Now..as to your intriguing challenge! Hmmm..let me see
now ( thinking ) could some one as knowledgeable, verbose,
and loquacious as me, blag a couple of pages on all thing's 
AWD.. well bless my soul, you know, i do believe i could..
so i am delighted to accept your challenge..with the proviso
that YOU do the same, in real time. after you have read this
let me know..and we can sort that out..should be fun!.  
                                                                     cheers xhosa

Dam it,Xhosa i had odds on that you, wouldn't side step, and what do you do. Side step. That's just cost me. John iou £10.00, thanks Xhosa. I'll return the favour one day!

Like it, satire with a delicate hint of sarcasm..well done Ulundi.
you might even stretch to a whole paragraph one day!   but
you see your cockle is quite safe!! i did not side step the 
challenge, i of course for any body thats remotely interested
accepted it,with alacrity. do read it again the response i gave 
to impi,                                                                xhosa

Goodnight camper's. i hope you all sleep, the sleep of the just, 

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

"Was Durnford in command at Bushman's River Pass?
Yes. Not even you can wriggle him off that hook.

CTSG, have you started talking to yourself? You might want to investigate that before it gets out of hand.

rusteze wrote:

I have come across a couple of further references to Durnford in the published diary of Lt. General Sir Charles Warren (On the Veldt in the Seventies). Warren was an interesting man, not least because he became Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police in 1886 and was in charge at the time of the infamous "Jack the Ripper" murders in London's East End in 1888 (another fascination of mine).

The quotes I have lifted from his book I think illustrate the standing of Durnford among serving soldiers (leaving aside Chelmsford).

Excellent stuff, Steve. I think you are probably right that such evidence is more indicative of how most people saw him than Chelmsford's mob. In my opinion, with a few exceptions during protracted struggles, anybody that makes it as far up in the hierarchy as overall commander is as much politician as military man or he would not secure the position. So the General was judging Durnford not so much as a man, but as somebody who was putting stumbling blocks in his path. And I think we can assume the General represented a basically Tory outlook on colonial matters - if it's not too anachronistic to put it that way. When Durnford fell into the orbit of the Colensos he definitely put himself at odds with that faction.

But to me Durnford must have had considerable standing in the local community as a military man to be entrusted with recruiting and training the native cavalry. And of course he was then given command of an independent column. He clearly also had political credibility or he would never have been appointed to the Boundary Commission.

Or it could be a more simple explanation, Warren Gordon Durnford were all products of 'the Shop'. And of course The Old Boys Network.

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

Or it could be a more simple explanation, Warren Gordon Durnford were all products of 'the Shop'. And of course The Old Boys Network.

Cheers

It's safe to say the Durnford was operating well out of the sphere of the old boys network by the time he began hobnobbing with the bishop. Of course those diary entries etc...might have been made beforehand or in ignorance of Durnford's sympathies. But then, out of all of them, (i.e. the products of 'the Shop') why did he ascend to the important roles I mention? Did they just hold a raffle or did he demonstrate skills and the trustworthiness that people tend to value?

Your going to have to amplify: out of all of them, (i.e. the products of 'the Shop') why did he ascend to the important roles I mention? Did they just hold a raffle or did he demonstrate skills and the trustworthiness that people tend to value?
Not to sure about the 'all of them', that's seems to indicate he did better than ALL of them. Taking in to account the various ranks/honours Warren Gordon plus plus plus, you really do need qualify your statement.
I believe your post was more focused on the Warren Durnford interaction so the above would apply.
Im pretty sure that the Durnford/Colenso relationship was based on a kindred spirit formula. They were all effective outcasts, wrong or right, and they both had enormous empathy for the plight of the indigenous population and their treatment at the hands of the settlers.
PS I wouldn't rule out the raffle, hell American politics has been based on a like minded system for years.
PPS You should consider the South African system instead, blatant out and out graft lies and cheating.
Its so much easier to ignore,

Addendum
You must realise that the graduates of the shop were regarded as the crem de la crem of the army, highly educated men well qualified who studied their craft. Not purchased commissions and promotions through contacts.

Cheers