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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 Isandlwana location.

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littlehand

littlehand

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Isandlwana location. Empty
PostSubject: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyThu Sep 15, 2011 1:31 pm

Gent's can anyone confirm who selected Isandlwana as the camp site. Suspect
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ciroferrara

ciroferrara

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyThu Sep 15, 2011 2:35 pm

major clery i beleive
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyThu Sep 15, 2011 2:44 pm

Glynn. Idea
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyThu Sep 15, 2011 3:47 pm

The area was chosen on a reccy by Chelmsford and staff.
Clery staked out the site.
Clery alocated tent areas ( Read Hamilton Brown)

Fynn: "I pointed out the open flat two miles father as good camping ground. Some said it was to sandy, they not knowing otherwise, when it was observed Col Glyn's Chief of Staff ( Major Clery) had already begun marking of the encampment on the southwards side of Sanhlwana (sic) slope; and there the matter rested.

Regards
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyThu Sep 15, 2011 4:02 pm

My source states it was as CTSG says "Glynn" who located the camp. would he have not seen that the area in- question was too hard to dig regarding fortifications.
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyThu Sep 15, 2011 4:30 pm

I don't know for sure but I would go with Major Clery. If it was Glynn he would have nothing to moan about. And would have been the reason for not being able to fortify correctly.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyThu Sep 15, 2011 11:13 pm

Littlehand could you be more precise regarding your source.
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Location   Isandlwana location. EmptyFri Sep 16, 2011 6:24 am

Hi all.
I'm with Springbok , Ian Knight is quoted by Springbok and I've checked the book as well. It's from '' Zulu - Isandlwana & Rorke's Drift
22 - 23 January 1879 '' . ( It is the large Silver book ) . I have left Sonia Clarke's book at my Dad's and it is letters from Crealock ,
Clery & others to Lt - Col Allison & others , I will check it out Monday night to see if it's mentioned .
cheers 90th.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyFri Sep 16, 2011 5:25 pm

The Story of the Zulu Campaign (1880)
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Author Waller Ashe, Edmund Verney Wyatt Edgell

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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyFri Sep 16, 2011 10:18 pm

Littlehand thanks for posting source. Certainly doe's say Glyn selected the camp site. And Chelmsford didn't arrived until late. No wonder Glyn didn't have to much to say at the court of enquiry.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyFri Sep 16, 2011 10:28 pm

If this is the case, why didn't Glyn fortify the camp? He was there first and he was the commander. But again we have different versions 3 up to now.
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Location   Isandlwana location. EmptySat Sep 17, 2011 12:54 am

Hi Littlehand.
I'm a little wary of the Ashe / Wyatt - Edgell book for the reason Ashe states in his introduction he isnt in Sth Africa during the war ,
and Wyatt - Edgell didnt arrive in Sth Africa till after Isandlwana . In the book it states Glyn picked the site which is a fair enough
assumption because he was the '' Figure Head Commander '' of No3 Column but in no way did he have any real say in the matters .
I will look through Crealock's letters when I have the chance , as I'm sure he will mention who actually decided to camp at Isandlwana.
I know they decided to camp there because of the plentiful amounts of water & wood .
cheers 90th.
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Location   Isandlwana location. EmptyMon Sep 19, 2011 3:24 pm

Hi all .
As promised Ive had a look through Sonia Clarke's '' Zululand At War '' and you cant argue with this ! Or can you !. :lol!:
In a Letter to Sir Archibald Alison written at Rorke's Drift dated 1 / 2 / 79 by C.F.Clery .

'' The General joined No.3 Column before it crossed the border and as was to be expected took command of it to all intents
and purposes , even to sending out patrols '' . He goes on and says . '' Well , we crossed the Buffalo on ponts all right and got
over all our wagons . The enemy showed in no force . We attacked and destroyed the Kraal of the most important chief ( Sihayo )
on the border . WE THEN ADVANCED TO A POINT SELECTED BY THE GENERAL AND ENCAMPED THERE , as from this point
the General intended clearing both his flanks before he advanced any further - At least I believe that was his intention , but as he
had his own staff and DISCOURAGED ANYTHING LIKE SUGGESTIONS , I was never quite sure of what was being done ''.

I've used Capitals in the text only to highlight what Clery has said on the Location Issue . No shouting intended .

Impi .
In reply to your question of why didnt Glyn fortify the camp , I've posted it somewhere on the forum and to put it simply he asked
Chelmsford to do so and the Good Lord responded with a no !!!. Basically Glyn was told , the camps to big , ground's to hard ,
dont have the time , wagons going back to RD asap , etc etc etc . I'm sure you get the picture .
cheers 90th. Idea


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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyMon Sep 19, 2011 4:07 pm

Quote :
simply he asked Chelmsford to do so and the Good Lord responded with a no !!!.
Wonder why Glyn felt it neccsssary to obtain permission to do so. I mean did he ask if it was ok to fortify, or did he start and was told to stop.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyMon Sep 19, 2011 4:16 pm

Nobody dared say or do anything without Chelmsford's say so, no matter what rank they were. That is the source of all the problems associated with the invasion once in Zulu territory.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyMon Sep 19, 2011 10:00 pm

Does it really matter who chose the site. Logistically it was the ideal location to form a temporary stop over. Which it was always intended to be.
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Location   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 11:02 am

Hi OH2 .
If you read my previous post you will see what Clery said of Chelmesford , basically taking over the No3 Column .
Glyn although the Commander of the coloumn was only a puppet who had no real say which is evident when he
asked Chelmesford to Laager or fortify the camp , and was basically laughed at by chelmesford . All this has been
written and mentioned many times elsewhere on the forum . Glyn asked as that was the done thing in Victorian times.
Glyn actually asking shows he wasnt in charge of the column . Hope this clears up the misconceptions you may have
regarding who was actually in charge of No3 Column . Hope the frostbite has worn off ? . Good to see you enjoyed yourself .
Would have been a fascinating weekend .
cheers 90th. Idea
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 11:35 am

Quote :
Does it really matter who chose the site. Logistically it was
the ideal location to form a temporary stop over. Which it was always
intended to be.
CTSG makes a good point. Where else could they have set-up camp? They
needed a place that would give them good observation into enemy
territory (If I remember correctly Ian Knight said they could see 12
miles across open plain idea for observing enemy movements. Wood and
water would have been plentiful so it would have been the ideal
position.
CTSG says it was never intended to be a permanent position in was part of the advance plan into Zululand. With regards to fortify Isandlwana it would have taken to long,it was just not feasible to undertake such a task.
When Chelmsford went to the assistance of Major Dartnell, Pulleine after all the other orders had been issued (Won’t get into that) Was instructed to pack up and join up with the rest of the column. Here’s something else I learnt over the weekend. There were around 400 tents to be taken down. To take down a tent, ten men were needed, so how long would that have taken. Then take into account all the other provisions that needed to be stowed away Oxon and horses needed to be fed and harness up. There was no time to fortify Isandlwana, either before the attack or during. The camp was getting ready to move not fight.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Location   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 11:57 am

Hi OH2 .
I agree , they certainly didnt have the time or manpower to fortify at Isandlwana . I was attempting to answer your question
as to why you thought Glyn needed to ask Chelmesford to fortify . Hope that makes sense ? . The fortifying saga is only
topical because of Chelmesford's Standing orders he had issued to all column commanders and other high ranking officers
in Nov / Dec 1878 , which he ( C'ford ) himself didnt adhere to and we know what happened in Jan 1879 dont we . Idea
The complete set of these orders are often for sale on ebay and are in the 5th Edition I think it is of ' The Journal of the AZW
Historical Society ' .
cheers 90th.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 12:29 pm

Just out of interest. What could Chelmsford had done better at Isandlwana, bearing in mind my comments prior to this post.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 12:34 pm

OH/90th
Sorry I dissagree with Ian ( now that takes cheek ). As I posted earlier, Fynn pointed out a camp site 2 miles further onto the plain. Easier to defend, wood water etc massive visability. The only thing it didnt have was a McDonalds.
AS Fynn points out he was over ruled because Clery was allready marking out the camp site.

Fynn was some body highly experienced in the Zulu culture and phsyc. He was over ruled.
You can almost hear the sotto voiced conversations about bloody colonials trying to tell the Queens officers and gentlemen what to do.

CTSG is quite right it was only a temporary camp, but does the fact that it was temporary bar the Zulu from attacking it?
Khambula was a temporary camp that was properly positioned and defended, look at the difference in outcome.

Regards

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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Location   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 12:37 pm

Hi OH2 .
I think the Good Lord should have delegated many of the tasks he took on himself , it's quoted in much correspondance
that Chelmesford attempted to run everything , and therefore mistakes and a poor quality of clarity tended to be the result.
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 12:42 pm

OH
Sorry our postings crossed.

The main thing Chelmsford could have done was listen to advice from men of the country. Site the camp away from the mountain, use the flat ground to advantage in that it would have been easier to lager. Do the same as the Boer did at Blood River, use the natural features, dongas, to help in the defences.
If he was going to split his forces then ensure the safety of those he left behind.
He was just so lucky ( Sorry Ian, you did say he was unlucky. have to disagree again) that his column wasnt attacked on the way to mangeni. It was split up and fractured over ten miles of countryside.
Little bit more insight by the Zulu commanders and the defeat of the Army would have been completed.

Lots that could have been done.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 2:09 pm

Although the whole campaign would have been conducted greatly different against a European enemy, the fact is, when a base and supply line to the friendly border is overrun or destroyed, the force further in to enemy territory is then vulnerable due to being cut off, such as at Arnhem. Chelmsford was fortunate that he was able to retreat his half of No.3 Column back to Natal without any major confrontation. In any other situation he might have had to fight to the last, or hold out till help arrived, if it could, or even, heaven forbid, negotiate a surrender with Cetshwayo ! How could he live with that embarrassment ? There would definitely have been a full investigation then on his decision-making and actions. Suspect
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 5:27 pm

How long would it have taken to fortify Insandlwana to satisfaction. Base on what it was like back then and the tools available. And bearing in mind what Old H said. It was only ever going to be used as a stop over. Old H makes a very good point. The camp on that day was in the throws of moving to join Chelmsford. Do we no for sure that ammo depots hadn't been setup at various locations around Isandlwana prior to the 22nd and brought back in and store in wagons ready to move.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 8:13 pm

Nothing more could have been done, it was an army moving into enemy territory, an army on the move, permanent encampments were out of the question. Ulundi was the target. No one knew there was going to be an attack on the camp that day. And if we believe the Zulu’s were not going to attack with regards to the new moon, Then even they didn’t know an attack was going to be made that day
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 9:08 pm

Old H. Looks like that weekend event proved worthwhile. And a change of Avatar. Idea

The Good Lord Chelmsford wanted the war brought to a close as quickly as possible. Those left in the camp were dead at the point when the Zulu’s were discovered. Even if they had fortified in everyway possible with was available to them, the outcome would have been the same. It was not a case of superior weapons on that day; it was a case of superior numbers. Plus the fact that the two officers in command were about as good as an ashtray on a motor bike.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyTue Sep 20, 2011 9:18 pm

Those in commard, no doubt did what they thought was right with the options availble to them on the day. Once the Zulus got into the camp, there probably were no commands just a desperate fight for life.
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Location   Isandlwana location. EmptyWed Sep 21, 2011 2:53 am

Hi OH2.
Like the new Avatar , just a couple of points regarding your last post , Granted it was a camp on the move but dont forget they
arrived at Isandlwana on the 20th , Chelmesford had no intention of moving on the 22nd until sometime when he sent the message to pack up the camp , this was because he didnt find the zulu army . A permanent fortification wasnt needed because it would have been an impossibility . But , there is no reason why he didnt use the rocks which were all over the ground and cobble together a couple of mini Bastion type of structures , also a shelter trench may have been handy . What you must remember is these things
WERE DONE ON A NIGHTLY BASIS DURING THE SECOND INVASION . I've used capitals merely to emphasise the importance
of that statement .
cheers 90th. Idea
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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Isandlwana location. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyWed Feb 01, 2012 9:56 pm

old historian2 wrote:
Nothing more could have been done,

They could have done very easily

Better pickets

Better reconisnce

Better intelignce

Just because a camp is tempory does not make it safe from attack


Cheers
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littlehand

littlehand

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Location : Down South.

Isandlwana location. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana location.   Isandlwana location. EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 6:42 pm

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Isandlwana location. Empty
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