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 Isandlwana, Last Stands

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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves

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Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 3:22 pm

What eye witness accounts are there, to confirm these last stands... Just been reading Littlehands take on the matter..
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 4:29 pm

Melokazulu describes Durnford and the one in the Saddle
There's one of Younghusband
There's one on A company as well


Julian
Thanks



Cheers
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 8:01 pm

I have read the one from "Melokazulu"

Could you post the other two..
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 8:12 pm

C Company last stand and charge

We worked round behind Isandhlwana under cover of the long grass and dongas, intending to join with the Ngobamakosi on the " neck" and sweep in upon the camp. Then we saw white men beginning to run away along the road " kwa Jim ; " many of these were cut off and killed, down in the stream which flows through the bottom of the valley. More and more came over, some mounted and some on foot. When they saw that the valley was full of our warriors, they turned to the left and ran off along the side of the hill towards Umzinyati (the Buffalo) ;those who had not got horses were soon overtaken. The Nodwengu pursued the mounted men, numbers of whom were killed among the thorns and dongas, but I heard that some escaped. Our regiment went over into the camp. The ground is high and full of dongas and stones, and the soldiers did not see us till we were right upon them. They fought well a lot of them got up on the steep slope under the cliff behind the camp, and the Zulus could not get at them at all ; they were shot or bayoneted as fast as they came up. At last the soldiers gave a shout and charged down upon us. There was an induna in front of them with a long flashing sword, which he whirled round his head as he ran it must have been made of fire.

A Company last stand

As we rushed one the Soldiers (A Company) were driven into the camp, fighting all the way and as they got into the camp we were intremingled with them. One party formed up a little above thier ammuntion wagons. They held there groud until there ammuntion failed them when they were nearly all assegaied.



Cheers

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 8:42 pm

The first one would be Younghusband. But like I a e said before. Ths was really a last stand. It was a group of men doing their best to escape.

DB Where did ths (A) company come from.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 8:56 pm

These were A company soldiers, there last act was to rally side by side and die. They had no options but to break and run, or stand and fight. They fourght, there last act was a stand.

C Company,
60 men and 3 officers were found in a clump, so they had a last stand.



A company is explained by there posistion on the firing line, the bodies found in the camp, the zulu regiments.

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 9:29 pm

Thanks. But what's the source..
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 9:31 pm

For A company its explained in Snooks book. He goes into detail on the bodies and where they were found and the
officers found with them.



Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 9:45 pm

Ahhh!!! secondary source. So theres not an actual eyewitness account.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 9:49 pm

LH

Read his book, look at the posistion of the company, where the other companies fell Salute
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 9:54 pm

DB. I dont want to read the book, I only read books that contain actual events and eyewitness accounts. All I wanted to know was the source. Mikes book don't cut it.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 10:04 pm

Since the Zulus decided that the uMbonambi was the first regiemtn to break into the tents, then the main body of the 1st Battalion was pressed not only from an arc north though north-east, by the uNokhenke and the unCijo, but also from the east by the uMbonambi. The men at the critical corner, and thus most likely to have been cut off from the rest of the main body, belonged to the company on the right - Degacher's A compamy. This group of bodies is recoreded in a letter written by Inspector Mansel of the NMP.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 10:13 pm

No ones knows what happen when they got into the camp. Those that escaped had left.

Mansel wasn't at Isandwana so it would be based on speculation. Or hearsay
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 10:15 pm

LH

Not sure what you mean scratch

Mansel counted the bodies after the battle.



Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 10:27 pm

I would expect alot of people counted the bodies. But no one can presume what happen in the last stages. Like I have said. Men gathered together because that's human extinct. I'm still not convinced last stands took place that day.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 10:42 pm

DB. Here's a good example of what one officer stated with regards to
"Isandlwana"

"Major Francis Grenfell (60th rifles) expressed the bitterness felt by officers and men alike at the loss of so many comrades:
All my dear old friends of the last four years dead and gone, and we have not even been able to bury them… Officers and men behaved splendidly – dying back to back – and at the last rallying round the colours, not a man of the regiment attempted to escape till all was lost"


This is how he imagined it to be. The same way people to day imagined it to be, including today's Zulu War Authors.

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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 10:53 pm

I have posted an account from a Zulu who was there, there is no need to presume, we have the account.

Its the fact whole companies died together, an example, we call it H company last stand, becasue it where H company was killed.



Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyMon Feb 13, 2012 11:26 pm

H- Company like every other company were together from the start of the Battle to the end, Just like every other company that day at Isandlwana. The fact they died together does not automatically became a last stand.

I have made my views clear on what I think about Zulu witness's. Words put into their mouths.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 4:36 am

Hi All

What you call the last stand had men of all units, forcing ...

And the last of the last stand is one that was destroyed nearest Natal ...

Then the last true last stand, where it is?

Many divergences on it with historians ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 8:41 am

I think you have to come to terms with the fact that there are some things we shall not necessarily know, also that there are some things that one might take for granted. Wilsone Black's burial report clarifies that men were found in groups and that by the way they had fallen had made a stand. Mansel found the same thing. It is of course by nature what outnumbered but disciplined soldiers do in extremis as their last hope.
I realise that that will still not be enough for you. I have all the Zulu accounts so will re-read and list those that talk of final groupings of soldiers.
NB The first one I have just looked at - Uguku's - makes it absolutely clear that his regt cam up against 2 stands, describing the men being in square with an officer in the middle. Read the acct for yourself, the acct is in The Army and Navy Gazette, 11th October 1879 (taken from England's Sons, as are all the Zulu accts). It was repeated in Durnford and Colenso.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 11:29 am

Hello Julian

I know that this is a last stand, humans are social animals (see the reaction of Christians in the arena faces of lions) and if military training is surrounded with no hope of survival, it will use this kind of formation,not necessary a square ...

To me it makes sense that the last stands were those closest to Natal, right?

Cheers

Pascal
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 12:04 pm

Not necessarily. A stationary group of 70 on the eastward slope of Isandhlwana with a couple of ammunition boxes might last longer than a mobile group of 40 surrounded on all sides at the Manzimnyama.
As a by the by I've just re-read Norris-Newman's visit to the battlefield on the night of the 22nd. He describes seeing plenty of bodies surrounded by 60 or 70 used cartridges.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 12:08 pm

Unfortunately this is how the Battle of Isandlwana is perceived today. Dramatized imagination of artists.

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Last edited by littlehand on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 12:14 pm

Littlehand
The last stands in the pictures you show are very much romanticised Victorian versions but they are not far off the truth. That is how the men were found having fought back to back in groups, some large, some small, sometimes 2 men. Read Wilsone Black's report.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 1:04 pm

Julian,yeah right, you have more cartridges more you resist long, though there is more Zulus to attack the stands in the camp that those who try to make their way to Natal ...

Hi Little Hand, Fripp's painting that characterizes sadness Isandhlwana was due to the presence of the Drummer Boy (pity that the finger means something, I'm not sure what it is ...), this painting inspires me to always do the wargame, assigning and touches me when I see her ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 1:30 pm

Fripp's painting is supposed to portray Wolfe and his 20 men being 'left behind' - so again not from the world of fantasy.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 1:34 pm

Quote :
Wolfe and his 20 men being 'left behind'
How do we know this.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 1:37 pm

Because they were the only men left on the firing line, found in a compact group.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 1:48 pm

And the drummer boy designate what with his finger ?...
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 2:18 pm

Artistic licence!
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 2:32 pm

It's been weird, it ruins everything as this will decrease the dramatic effect ...
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 2:54 pm

[quote="Julian Whybra"]Fripp's painting is supposed to portray Wolfe and his 20 men being 'left behind' - so again not from the world of fantasy.[/quote]
Quote :

Bonjour Monsieur WHYBRA,

It seemed to me that iti was G company (2/24th) that was represented in the painting of FRIPP.

Cheers

YMOB
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 3:46 pm

Julian. Black's visit to Isandlwana which visit does he refer to in this report you mention ( I don't have Black's Report) Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 4:13 pm

Here is his 14th of March vist

On Friday, the 14th of March, a party of volunteers, under Lientenant-Colonel Black, 2-24th Regiment, consisting of
Captain Symons. Captain Harvey, Lieutenant Banister, and Sergeant Tigar, of the 2-24th, Commandant Cooper, and twelve officers of the Natal Native Contingent, and ten of the Mounted Police, left Rorke's Drift, at 7 a.m., crossed the Buffalo on the pont, and rode through the Bashee Valley to make a reconnoissance of the camp at Isandwhlana. The scouts in advance saw fires burning in the kraals in the Bashee Valley, and disturbed three armed men with guns near the drift at the foot of the Isandwhlana Hill, who ran off at the approach of the party. Arrived on the now well-known and oft-described 'ridge,' a horrible scene of desolation was spread before them, and the still highly-tainted air filled their nostrils. After posting vedettes on all sides to guard against a surprise, they proceeded systemati- cally to examine the whole of the battle-field. Some thirty Zulus were seen running from the kraal in front of the camp, and when out of sight they fired several shots, with the intention, no doubt, of giving the alarm, and shortly afterwards signal-fires were seen burning on the hills. The Guard-tent of the 2-24th Regiment was first searched, in hopes of finding some trace of the two colours of the regiment, which had been left there on the morning of the 22nd of January last. The tent, colours, and belts had all been taken away. They next searched each camp in detail, and afterwards rode down by the side of the 'donga' that ran in front of the camp; and then still farther afield, where the different incidents and phases of the terrible battle were supposed to have taken place, and observed the following: The Zulu dead had all been removed. The waggons to the number of over 100 were uninjured, and stood for the most part where they were left. All the tents had been burnt, cut up and taken away, the poles only being left. Everything of value had been looted, and what had not been taken away had been stabbed vrith assegais. Sponges, boots, brushes of all descriptions, quantities of books, papers, photographs, gaiters, and various other articles were scattered about. Horses and mules were lyingy still tied to the piquet-ropes and waggons, and a good manyskeletons of oxen were scattered here and there. The bodies of our poor brave soldiers showed where the fury of the enemy
had overtaken them. They were all in and about the camp, or down the path the fugitives took; not a dozen could be in the whole surrounding of the camp, nor in the 'donga,' bearing out tiie testimony of survivors, who relate that while
the soldiers held the donga they suffered no loss. The greatest number counted lying together within a very small compass was sixty-eighty and these were in the left rear of the lst/24th, near the officers' mess-tent. The majority were 24th men, but there were some of other arms as well. As regards the state of the bodies, a subject of morbid but painful interest, they were in all conditions of horrible decay. Some were perfect skeletons; others that had not been stripped, or only partially so, were quite unapproachable, and the stench was sickening; with but fewexceptions, it was impossible to recognise any one, and the only officer that was seen was discovered by his clothes. It was considered that it would be three to four weeks before the bones could be collected and buried. Were an attempt to be made to do so now nothing could be done but to throw earth over the corpses. Close to the small heap of dead bodies before men- tioned, the colour-belt of the 1st/24th Regiment was found by Corporal Ghroschky, Natal Mounted Police; it was the most interesting thing found, though not perhaps the most valuable, as Captain Symons found a large bundle of cheques belonging to him that had not been opened. Having thoroughly searched
the camp, they proceeded to look for the two guns. One limber was found on the road leading down the valley towards the Izipesi Mountain, about a quarter of a mile to the front of the camp. The other limber, much broken, was found lying in the ravine where Lieutenant Curling, R.A., described the guns as having been upset and lost; and the team of six horses, all harnessed together, was lying by it; the ravine was so steep that one or two of the horses were suspended by the harness over the stream; both the guns and carriages had been removed. This ravine is about half a mile from 'the ridge,' and numbers of bodies were lying between the two. On the order to retire being given, the party returned by the same road, being twice fired upon, without effect, by two small parties of natives; once as they were leaving the ravine, and the second time from the 'krantzes' above the Bashee Valley.


Last edited by Drummer Boy 14 on Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 4:33 pm

Hi Springbok

Regarding me saying about Durnford wanting the two companies of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment to form a defensive line, this comes from the book 'Zulu Victory the epic of Isandlwana and the cover up' by Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill, if you have this book, please go to page 180, and you will be able to read for yourself what I mean.

Sorry for such a short reply mate, but I have a lot on my plate today (and it's not food). :lol:

Martin. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 6:53 pm

Thanks DB14.

Here's another version of events.

"On the 14th March 1879, seven weeks after the battle, the first official visit to the battle-site took place. The party comprised Major W. Black, Commandant Cooper and Major J.G. Dartnell, accompanied by officers of the 24th of Foot, the Natal Native Contingent, and a party of the Natal Mounted Police. They had hardly arrived on the site when they came under fire and had to retire hastily to Rorke’s Drift, having accomplished nothing more than a quick glimpse of the scene of destruction and death (Knight 1992:124)"
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 6:58 pm

LH

There were 2 vists in March, i think the date my be wrong in your account.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 7:01 pm

Both dates are correct. Blacks next visit took place on May the 15th 1879.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 7:09 pm

By John Maxwell on the 14th of March

There were bodies about in all directions, but hardly any dead Zulus. The bodies of the men of the 24th, mostly in their shirt sleeves, principly in small groups of 10 to 20, intermixed here and there with the bodies of Volunteers, distinguishable by thier uniform. There were quanties of stores knocking about, amongst the rest haversacks, ammuntion boots, and artillery driver boots, a pair of which i attached to Capt. Symonds saddle.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 7:14 pm

Who's John Maxwell. scratch
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 7:15 pm

NNC Officer
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 7:21 pm

You see the problem. There are different versions of events.

When Black returned on the 15th May he wasn't there more than 20 minuites again not enough time to have a look over the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 7:21 pm

You see the problem. There are different versions of events.

When Black returned on the 15th May he wasn't there more than 20 minuites again not enough time to have a look over the camp.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 7:27 pm

I'm confused aswell, i thourght the first vist failed as the men were fired on and had to retire.

Snooks covers it in LWOTF with the dates, but i don't have the book.

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 7:44 pm

Here's Knights version of events on the 15th May 1879.

"On the 15th May, Black (recently promoted Lieutenant – Colonel) led a second party, this time from Fort Melvill, to Isandlwana. They stayed only twenty minutes, barely long enough to count and assess the condition of the wagons, before following the Fugitives’ Trail to the Buffalo River, where the body of Major Stuart Smith was found and covered with stones (Knight 1992:125)."

I tend to think that most modern day Anglo Zulu War Authors use Ian's work as their resource.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 8:13 pm

"On the 21st May General Frederick Marshall, under orders from Lord Chelmsford, led the Cavalry Brigade to Isandlwana to bury the dead and to recover the wagons. While many bodies were identified, only those of the Volunteers and the Artillery were given a hasty burial.

Colonel Glyn of the 24th had asked that his regiment be allowed to bury their own dead at some later date (Knight 1992:128)"
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwan , last stands .   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 8:53 pm

Hi Littlehand.
I'm with Julian on this one , I've also read somewhere over the years ! , that Fripp's painting is meant to depict Clr Sgt Wolfe
and his band of 20 odd . The Central Figure in the painting with the bandaged head is indeed a Sgt .

Hi Ymob .
From Memory - Wolfe and his men were part of Pope's G Co .

Hi Pascal .
I think the finger pointing by the Drummer Boy is a way of expressing the hopelessness of their situation - ie '' Look at all them
zulu's over there, and coming this way !! '' - type of gesture , thats the way I see it anyway .
cheers 90th. Salute
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Wolfe was H company 1/24th Salute
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana - Last Stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 8:56 pm

Hi DB.
Oops my bad , I'm not at home so dont have acess to any books Suspect . Will be home in an hr or two .
cheers 90th. Salute
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 10 EmptyTue Feb 14, 2012 9:06 pm

Wolfe is H coy.
Fripp found the forlorn hope of Wolfe and his band of 20 engaging as a subject for viewers. He was right.
Littlehand, go to the primary sources. Don't read Snook or Knight or anyone else - (even me) - always go to the primary source. And never rely on anyone posting anything. A day in the National Archive is what you want my lad (and don't forget to take your passport). And then you'll be a man, my son! (Sorry, couldn't resist the quotation).
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