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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptySun Feb 19, 2012 8:04 am

This is not from his book but taken from rorkesdriftvc forum. It has a number of holes in it.
Pope's body was found on the saddle and buried, the position being marked with a meat scale.
The number of men in G coy is known.
There is a Zulu account which relates to 2 men with glass in their eye. They were the only 2 officers to wear monocles.
He has not placed G coy bodies where Bassage said he found them.
He is right about Morris though!
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptySun Feb 19, 2012 10:13 am

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Not from the RD forum. I did name the source where I found it.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptySun Feb 19, 2012 11:18 am

This is not of his book, but of him, anyway ...
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptySun Feb 19, 2012 7:02 pm

Even today. There seems to be disagreements as to the exact locations of the companies at Isandlwana. This will always going to be a guessing game, no one can be sure what happen at the end.
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptySun Feb 19, 2012 8:13 pm

Could the 70 in the Saddle be E company men ?

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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 1:44 pm

posted on behalf of forum member springbok.

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Another image comparison to Fripps painting, taken in approx the same position as Neils but slightly further back. This one was taken in the late 70s in January. See how Green and lush the grass is.
Photo & Text by Springbok.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 8:48 pm

Just to add to my opinion, that being no last stands as such. I came across this by G. A. Chadwick. This could be a good reason why so many dead bodies were found in various areas, which is the so call last stands.

"[i]The burial of the dead and the preservation of the cairns
The battlefield was not revisited until 17 May but the burial party of the Dragoon Guards spent four days there from 21 to 24 May, exactly four months after the battle. Some bodies which had been disemboweled dried up but others had decomposed. Vultures, crows, hyenas and jackals had also attacked many of the bodies, large numbers of which were unrecognisable. In many cases the tunics had been removed by the Zulus making identification even more difficult. In some areas, British and Zulu dead were lying together and could not he identified separately. Because of the lack of time and tools, as well as the hardness of the ground, no graves were dug, but the bodies pulled together in heaps and stones piled over them. This gave the characteristic appearance of the battlefield covered by cairns instead of graves with headstones. It is not known if the cairns were whitewashed at this time but it appears very unlikely. It is known that attention was paid to the battlefield after the annexation of Zululand and the cairns were probablv whitewashed during the early 1900's. Later several regimental monuments were erected.

During 1928 just before the 50th anniversary, that part of the battlefield where most of the cairns were situated was fenced off and cairns outside this were not regularly cared for. As a result those on the remoter parts of the battlefield became indistinguishable from ordinary heaps of stones. During 1958 a graves curator, in ignorance, flattened many cairns to make them look like ordinary graves. This exposed some remains. The writer was requested to rebuild the cairns, and after studying all available old photographs and relying on his own memory, work was commenced. However, many of the grave-like structures made by the curator were simply covered with stones and are clearly recognisable as incompletely restored cairns. The opportunity was taken to search for neglected cairns. Some forty of these were found, carefully examined for remains, fully documented, photographed, and marked on a plan and rebuilt. These cairns include those out on the ridge where the British companies were stationed and along the route of the fugitives. In view of recent statements that very few British were killed at the advanced positions, it is interesting to note that buttons, boot protectors and bones were found when the neglected cairns were dismantled and documented. This is, of course, not evidence that the casualties at these positions were very heavy."[/i]
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RobOats



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PostSubject: Isandlwana camp layered on Google Earth   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 8:55 pm

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Note line of wagons marked "W" behind each camp and also the line pf wagons in the Nek. I will produce more maps off Google Earth focusing on the individual camps.

I have used a diagram of a contour map showing the camp from Hill of the Sphinx (F W Jackson) and layered onto a Google Earth map. I have matched the contour lines so it is relatively accurate.

This allows a good perspective and one can see how it was possible for some of the last stands to be fought by perhaps getting ammo from wagons close by.

Interested in observations.


Last edited by RobOats on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 8:56 pm

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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 8:59 pm

Some figures from Jackson.


From the upper part of the 1/24th camp to the road: Durnford, Wardle, Dyer, Scott, Bradstreet
Hitchcock, one officer of the 24th unrecognisable and 150 men of the 24th.

Slope of Isandlwana above the Artillery camp: Younghusband, two officers of the 24th unrecognisable and 60 men of the 24th.

Nek, on south side of road under Blacks Koppie: around 100 white bodies.

Among the rocks on the bastion, just above a Kraal full of Zulu dead : Colour-Sergeant Wolfe found surrounded by 20 men of the 24th,
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:02 pm

Thanks Rob.

I still think its incredible, why the British were so far forward of Isandlwana. Why did they not use the hill as a natural barrier, protecting their rear.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:08 pm

DB. I think Jackson is working with resources available to him. In my mind I'm seeing what Chadwick as written. Carnage from start to finish, no order absolute caos.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:10 pm

You need to read Blacks account of June 1879. The bodies are found in rally Squares.

Jackson was using Bromheads report of the battle field.

Both Curling and Higginson refer to the 24th retreating slowly and steadily.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:12 pm

littlehand wrote:
I still think its incredible, why the British were so far forward of Isandlwana. Why did they not use the hill as a natural barrier, protecting their rear.

Lord C battle orders. Thats the reason why.

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:12 pm

DB. I think Jackson is working with resources available to him. In my mind I'm seeing what Chadwick as written. Carnage from start to finish, no order absolute caos.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:13 pm

scratch
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:20 pm

Quote :
The bodies are found in rally Squares.

They very well could have been, but they may not have all been British Soldiers. There could have been a mixer of British, Colonial and Zulu dead.
Bromhead report says the bodies were put into a mass grave.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:25 pm

Read Wilson Black, Forbes, Norris-Newman, Prior.

They Zulus didn't stripp everything, they could still be recognised as 24th.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:26 pm

Pulliene was advised twice to draw his men near to the camp. He didn't . No matter what is said about LC we have to agree with CTSG on one thing. LC was not at the camp when it was attacked. It was down to those left in commard.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:28 pm

He had to defend the camp, not the moutain.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:28 pm

But the Zulus worn the red coats they took from the dead, some of these could have been killed among the soldiers.
No matter what colour the man is, he stills has red blood and white bones.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:36 pm

scratch
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Isandlwana camp layered on Google Earth   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 11:44 pm

Hi Rob

This is very interesting, but even with my stronger glasses on, I can't make out what the writing is above the squares. Is there any way that you can enlarge it and also add the various names, ie; saddle, nek, fugitives trail, the different companies, etc, and also where the ammo wagons, etc, are placed?

Martin.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 5:31 am

Littlehand

Ive been trying to figure out exactly where your going with this discussion. My conclusion would be be that you seem to be convinced that there were no group battles after the firing line disintegrated. Your posts give the indication that after the line broke everyone ran away and were killed as individuals across the battle field. Am I close?

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 6:30 am

Hi all

Given the rapidity of Zulu warriors, the defenders have certainly not had time to form squares worthy of the name.

But the crowd of men of all units, it is instinctive for humans, in face of the danger ...

On the map above, the Zulu regiments, are not even in their place ?...

It's amazing that the Zulu leave their dead on the spot...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 6:45 am

Hi all

It's extra Rob ! and with arrows for each zulu regiment it's best...

Cheers

Pascal
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RobOats



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 8:58 am

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Hi Rob

This is very interesting, but even with my stronger glasses on, I can't make out what the writing is above the squares. Is there any way that you can enlarge it and also add the various names, ie; saddle, nek, fugitives trail, the different companies, etc, and also where the ammo wagons, etc, are placed?

Martin.

Have labelled the camps. The orientation is North/South top to bottom and East right.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 9:28 am

Yes Rob

Please, a fate map with everything on it and as, inevitably, there will be errors for some people, this will lead to endless debating, I love it ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 12:18 pm

I think I understand what LH is getting at.

For instance, many zulu's are supposed to have worn uniform jackets (trophies), now if some of these men had been killed whilst wearing these jackets, then months later their remains may well have been grouped together with other soldiers remains in the mistaken belief that they were also British soldiers.

Not all that long ago there were some remains found along with a uniform button, the button was from the general staff corps, and the only soldier to wear this uniform was a colour sgt Keane, however, there are now some doubts, and further research is needed, but could it not be that his jacket was taken off and worn as a trophy by a zulu, who was then later killed, and many years later his remains found along with the button. There is also another theory that many soldiers stitched on all sorts of buttons to replace others that had come off, so the button found with the remains could well be a button that was stitched on as a replacement for one that had come off, meaning that the remains may not be colour sgt Keane.

Martin. Salute
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Isandlwana camp layered on Google Earth   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 12:27 pm

Hi Rob

Many thanks for making things clearer, much appreciated.

Looking forward to any further developments.

Thanks again.

Martin. Salute
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Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 12:53 pm

Littlehand

"why did they camp so far from the hill"

Geology.

The scree slopes of Isandlwana are shale, levelling out to a soily sub strata. Not only do you have to pitch tents, but likewise refuse and latrine pits have to be dug.

Comfort
The slopes are quite disconcerting and the ground only levels out around the point of Robs markers. I remember the "monsters of Rock" in 1986, camping on slope was not good if you sleep in a blanket.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 1:05 pm

Hi Martin
No doubt that the Zulu did attach jackets et al as trophies. I would hazard a guess that took place towards the end of the fighting rather than during, the number of 'borrowers' killed wearing jackets would not come close to making up the numbers in the groups.
In the passage quoted by LH from George Chadwick he was refering to the general Zulu dead being mixed up with the Brits. I wouldnt classify anything in that quote that supported the notions proposed by LH. Sure chaos ruled but the basic premis offered that there were no last stands doesny stand up under scrutiny.
Its a tad ingenuous to throw in the mention of the burial party at the end of May to support the arguement when there are statements from the initial visits, from the 14th March onwards, that describe the scenes very fully. And in certain cases pinpoint various figures.
There were obviously bodies between the firing line and the saddle, but all eye witnesses agree there werent many. Large clusters were described by Black, Cooper and Dartnell. 9th April Dartnell patrolled with a large force. All statements refer to the clusters of men. And even over that period of time bodies so decomposition wasnt that advanced.
Read Mainwarings statement.
24th May two wonderful observers arrived on the battlefield, trained observers both, Melton Prior and Archibald Forbes..........."the clothes had helped to keep the bones together." ....."groups had gathered to make a stand and die"......... on this visit Durnfords body was identified.
Sorry Littlehand the proof of clusters of men being found together is overwhelming. Of course one must draw ones own conclusions as to why they were clustered together. Personaly I can not but believe in anything else but a series of fighting stands.

regards
PS

Musiwento's statement says there were Zulu bodies but not many, this within days of the attack.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 2:26 pm

Neil
Those werent rocks Neil.............bones mate. :lol:
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 3:13 pm

Neil I was referring to when the attack on Isandlwana took place. I could be wrong here. I thought Rob was showing how the camp was laid out on the 22nd Jan and he was trying to show there could have been last stands.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 3:47 pm

Hi springbok

Yes, I agree with you. I wasn't meaning that there were lots of zulu's that were killed wearing jackets (trophies), but that perhaps there were some that fell amongst the groups of men and that they might also have been buried with them (as I thought this was what LH was saying), as might other zulu's that were left on the battlefield amongst the groups of the dead. It does seem that many dead and dying zulu's were carried away by the victorious zulu army, and that some may even have crawled away to die elsewhere. It would appear that there were many groups of men that fought and died together in stands, and just maybe that the odd zulu might have been mixed up with them and later buried with them, especially if wearing a jacket (trophy).

I think that this is one of the things being considered about the body found with the button, at first thought to be the body of colour sgt Keane. There are various suggestions that it could have been a zulu wearing a jacket (trophy), or that it could be that some soldier had replaced one of his buttons by one from the general staff corps, I think there was even a suggestion that the body might have been moved by an animal and that it could have been left (by chance) nearby the button, so there is still no results that I know of as yet, as I posted an enquiry on the forum recently about this, and got this reply then, so we will have to wait for further tests and research before we get an answer.

Martin. Salute
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 3:52 pm

Quote :
Littlehand

Ive been trying to figure out exactly where your going with this discussion. My conclusion would be be that you seem to be convinced that there were no group battles after the firing line disintegrated. Your posts give the indication that after the line broke everyone ran away and were killed as individuals across the battle field. Am I close?

Regards

Sorry Sprinkbok, only just seen this post. Yes that about sums it up. Salute

I don’t believe it was possible for the officers to keep control of the Battle Situation under those circumstances; the chain of command was broken and it ended up being every man for himself including those officer that never left.
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PostSubject: Camp with cairn sites overlaid   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 4:00 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

This shows the location of the cairns based on Boast's report and published in Hill of the Sphinx (F W Jackson).

Now from a report made by Lt Royston of the Natal Carbineers who went to the Battle field in June 1879 he says that the Carbineers were all together apart from the few mentioned and that there were some 100+ bodies of the 24th and NMP close by in the area between the 24th camp (i.e. 1/24th) and the road. This matches the large number of cairns in this area.

Looking at the map you'll see that the NC were located around the wagons at the rear of the 1/24th camp and that the large number killed around the wagons behind the Mounted infantry camp. Royston also says that Lt Scott was found under a broken wagon yoke.

If this is the case then it is likely that they had grouped around the wagons and would therefore would likely have had access to the ammunition on those wagons. Again if this is the case they could have fought on for some time which is consistent with some accounts.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 4:01 pm

Quote :
There is a Zulu account which relates to 2 men with glass in their eye
.

Who are these two men? It probably says somewhere but I’m at work so don't have time to look
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 4:03 pm

Quote :
This matches the large number of cairns in this area.
I think this was mentioned in Bromhead report. Along the lines their buried the men were they were at that thickest.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 4:06 pm

Some eye witness accounts.

When the soldiers on the Manzimyama had been wiped out, those at Isandlwana were still fighting

The Zulus couldn't get at them, they were shot and bayoneted as fast as they came up.

We were quite unable to break their square until we had killed a great many of them by throwing our
assegais at short distances. We eventually overcame them all this way.

They threw down their gusn when their ammuntion was done and comansed with there pistols, then they
formed a line shoulder to shoulder and back to back and fourght with knives.


I ofen looked back and saw that one company was retreating in square surounded by a dence mob of Zulus, they
held there ground untill there ammo was spent then used the bayonet and fell in a heap like the brave old Tommt should.[/i]

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 4:14 pm

But these perspectives are of individual Zulu’s who could of heard this, (Chinese whispers) nothing to back it up.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 4:14 pm

From May

In a patch of long grass near the right flank of the camp lay Durnfords body, the long moustache still clinging to the withered skin of the face. Durnford had died hard - a central figure of a not of brave men who had fourght it our around there chief to the bitter end. A stalwart Zulu covered by his shield lay at the Colonel's feat. Around him almost in a ring lay about a dozen dead men, half being Natal Carbineers, riddled by assegai stabbs. Poor Lt Scott was harldy at all decayed. Clearly they had all rallied around Durnford in a last desperate attempt to cover the flank of the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 4:24 pm

The death of Charlie Pope and Fred Godwin-Austin

When they were surounding the troops at the camp, on the Nek of the plain, 2 officer with peices of glass in their eyes came forward firing at him with there revolvers. One of them was shot down but the other continued to fire, one grazing the right side of his neck, another grazing his left side, and another entering his leg. The Induna flung an assegai, which entered the officers breast. The officers with surpreme effort almost succeeded in pulling out the weapon bu the Induna fell on him and finished his dreadful work with another assegai.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 4:41 pm

Were these officers together at all times during the Battlen or did they have their own companies.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 4:43 pm

They commanded G comanpy 2/24th.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 5:18 pm

Hi all

On what Eye they wore a piece of glass?

Cheers

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 5:38 pm

Godwin Austin wore his on the left.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 5:41 pm

A monocle, it is distinguished...
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 5:48 pm

Does it matter what eye they worn it. Or does it have some bearing on their fate.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 12 EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 5:56 pm

No, but if one day I want to make their figures, I'm interested in such details Salute
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