Isandlwana, Last Stands

Little hand
The Zulu accounts you dismissed as Chinese whispers all came from Zulus who participated in the battle - their names, regiments and position on the field are known. Their eye-witness testimony cannot be dismissed so easily.
When you wrote above:
"I don’t believe it was possible for the officers to keep control of the Battle Situation under those circumstances; the chain of command was broken and it ended up being every man for himself including those officer that never left."
Belief is not enough. You have to have form evidence. Otherwise it's just your opinion. As I've said before, it is not historically valid (if you want anyone to take notice of what you say) to form an opinion and look only for evidence to support it. One should read ALL the evidence first and then form conclusions based on it. There is no suggestion anywhere that the "chain of command was broken". The officers stayed with their men; they died with their men. Not one Imperial officer who was responsible for a body of men left the field. There is no suggestion of "every man for himself" among the Imperial coys - officers were heard or seen calling for their men to remain steady and to keep together (Daly, Pullen, Mostyn, Dyer, Younghusband). The Zulu accounts bear witness to the orderly retreat to the camp in bodies of men, and how they were hard to break. If it had been every man for himself, why are there no 24th survivors from the coys, why are there no survivor's accounts which mention seeing hordes of 24th privates strung out to Fugitives' Drift - the only redcoats mentioned are those who were in camp and, being cut off from the coys, had a chance to flee individually (Richardson, Gamble, Williams, Wilson, Grant, Trainer, Johnson, Bickley, and the M.I.)

Posted on behalf of Springbok

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Hope this will clarrify the positions for the members.
Photo & Text by Springbok.

impi wrote:

Well it doe's appear that a neighbouring Impi, was set to attaked Chelmsford coloum, but this was postponed until the camp at Isandwana had been destroyed, if it had gone to plan Chelmsford column may have chopped as well.

Julian. Thanks for you excellent reply. Let's get one thing clear. It is my opinion, I have never claimed otherwise, i'm not interested wether people think along the same lines as me or not. I personally believe there were no last stands once the fire lines had been diminished.
You say

Quote :

"The Zulu accounts bear witness to the orderly retreat to the camp in bodies of men, and how they were hard to break"

there probably was at some point, but once in the camp it all went to pieces. The accounts from those Zulus who took part in the Battle were no doubt translated by the British. ( Who Knows) it is well known that Zulus never kept accounts of what took place in Battles it wasn't that important. But for some reason relating to Isandlwana we get all these how brave the British were accounts. The fact is no matter was resources are available it will always be down to individual accounts and reports. The British got a bloody nose on that day a complete embarrassment to the empire. These stories complied by British officers as far as I'm concerned it's nothing more than trying to soften the blow.
Those survivors who witnessed various companies forming up before they left may well have seen that, but only for a few seconds. What actions that company took after will never be known. Put it his way. I believe there were small pockets of resistance, men banding together hoping for safey in numbers. You raise a good question resting to the 24th.

Quote :

"why are there no survivor's accounts which mention seeing hordes of 24th privates strung out to Fugitives' Drift"

I think they left to late, which may I add, added to the confusion and desperate struggles in various areas around Insandlwana. Younghusband seems to have been the only one to have made for the high ground, I don't believe it was planned it was the only place left to retreat to to get away from the hoards of Zulu's pouring in. As for the Zulus allowing Younghusband to shake hands with all hs men before suicide by Zulu ( I will leave that to individuals to decide) The issue for me is this. The overwhelming numbers of Zulus 20,000 plus would been to much for any modern army British or not. The various companies would have had men that did not stand there ground no matter how die hard they were. Once the ammunition had run out they would have been off either looking for supplies or joining companies that still had ammunition left. I also believe that some ofthe British would have tryed to surrender only to be killed. As for the large numbers of bodies found in various areas they could have been a mixture of various men not just British. Lonsdale witnessed Zulus wearing red coats when he made his way back to Isandlwana. So for me there were no last stands as such. Some men died bravely but there was alot that died because they had no choice because of the overwhelming numbers.

LH

The battle raged for over 2 hours after the fugites left.

But within that two hours ammunition was available. Plus the British we spread all over the field, if they had been in one place it woundn't have been raging for two hours.

I mean once the Zulus got into the camp, the fight raged for over 2 hours.

Hi Springbok , and all .
Thanks for the photo and deails , I cant see any other explanation in regard to the groups of dead that were found in clusters , obviously to my way of thinking they were indeed last stands . As they were all killed together in a group means they were all fighting and holding a defensive position in this group !. If it was as others have insinuated '' every man for himself ' there wouldnt be any groupings or clusters of significant numbers !. There would have been just one or two , possibly three laying together . Obviously from the evidence that has been collected , this is what happened all the way to the river ( With the exception of Anstey & his men ). I'm only talking from the sth side of the road and beyond , hope I've got the details correct there . If not , I'm sure you know what I mean .
cheers 90th.

But the large groups of dead were not just British there was a mixer. That why it was so hard to established who was who. We can't say if the remains had a red coat clinging to it. He was British.

The 24th could be identified by there shirt sleeves, trousers, jackets, boots, socks.

Quote :

70 men of the 24th were found in the Saddle

68 behind the 1/24th tents

50 in the 2/24th camp

60 under the southern crags of Isandlwana

50 found in an advanced posistion near the firing line

20 men including Wolfe were found on the firing line

70 men found around Col. Durnfords body neat the Stonny Koppie

60 to 70 NNC lay around George Shepstone at the rear of Isandlwana

DB. Thanks for these numbers.

Could you break them down. How many colonial and Zulu dead among them.

The colonials all died at Durnfords stand, with the exepseption of a few.

The Zulu dead were almost all removed from the field.

New list.

u]Some figures[/u]

[i]70 men of the 24th were found in the Saddle

68 men of the 24th behind the 1/24th tents

50 men of the 24th in the 2/24th camp

60 men of the 24th under the southern crags of Isandlwana

50 men of the 24th found in an advanced posistion near the firing line

20 men of the 24th including Wolfe were found on the firing line

30 redcoats and 40 colonials men found around Col. Durnfords body neat the Stonny Koppie

40 men of the 24th including Lt Anstey 2 miles down the fugites trail.

Quote :

Zulu dead were almost all removed from the field.

Does that include the dead Zulu Iduna laid at Durfords feet. Or was he left behind for that purpose.

Hi All .
Forgot to mention , I agree with Springbok that most if not all of the De - clothing of the British was done Post battle , I doubt they had time to stop and put on uniforms etc during the fighting , unless of course they had come across an individual or something similar . As for zulu dead wearing ' British Clobber ' it happened but certainly not in the large numbers as to confuse a last stand of British troops , with a cluster grouping of dead zulu wearing uniforms etc etc . Hope that makes sense .
Also another detail being that the skeletons that were held together by the uniforms prove them to be Soldiers as the zulu more than likely would have worn only a jacket or helmet . Couldnt imagine the zulu putting on the complete uniform , trousers , webbing , boots etc etc . I would think one soldier would or could clothe 3 or 4 zulu but if they were killed there wouldnt be enough material to bind their ( Zulu ) bones together ! . The most important point which I dont think has been mentioned is that the surviving zulu took all the wounded and dead that they could manage in an attempt to get them home to their families . This
is mentioned everywhere and even mentioned by the British when they say there was a distinct lack of zulu corpses on the field !.
cheers 90th.

And quoted again from G. A. Chadwick.

In some areas, British and Zulu dead were lying together and could not he identified separately

And what about those British soldiers who were stripped naked. How many no one knows. The Zulus didn't just take item of uniform to wear, they took them for sovereigns. The Zulus could have spend months removing the bodies no one really carried out a proper survey of the area.

Hi Littlehand .
The Zulu Army left Isandlwana virtually straight after the battle to make the 3 day trip home , they didnt go home and come back for a look see afterwards . Many rituals to attend too , and they also had to rest and recover from what was an horrendous experience , one of which they had never witnessed or imagined in their worst nightmare . Read the zulu reports post battle and you will see they didnt hang around very long at all , also there has never been any mention that I've read of zulu's going back to the field post battle ( In large numbers ) to move bodies from here to there ! , I and they wouldnt see any sense in that at all .
They had more to do than worry about a battle that was finished . if i'm not mistaken it was nearly harvest time .
cheers 90th.

Thanks 90th. But as you mentioned " they didnt hang about " gives more weight to the fact they didn't stay behind to pickup all their dead. Some maybe but not all. But it has also be witnessed by Black when he paid his first visit to Isandlwana. He was shot at by Zulus which suggests Zulu were still hanging around Isandlwana. And who knows what they were doing. Moving bodies about.

Jackson sums it up very well. And this will always be the case.

"The author quotes Capt. Molyneux – Chelmsford’s ADC, who was on sick-leave in England at the time of the battle – as saying that ‘the subject of Isandlwana has been talked and written about much more by those who knew nothing about it than by those who were in the country’"

"Jackson’s principle focus is on the officers and men of the 1/24th Regiment, and it is through them that this account largely unfolds."

Officers that weren't at Isandlwana. Or unable to give a true account because they were dead on the Battlefield.

Hi 90th

Yes, I did mention the fact that the zulu's took most of their dead and wounded away with them when they left Isandlwana (check out my post, 21 Feb at 3.47pm), and that many of the dying zulu's may well have crawled away to die elsewhere. But it is possible that the odd zulu was buried with the groups of soldiers, especially if wearing a jacket (trophy). So like LH says, there could have been some zulu's that got mixed up with these groups of men, and buried with them.

Take the case not long back of a body being found with a button of the general staff corps, at first it was thought that the body was of colour sgt Keane, as he was the only man there from that corps, however, there were some doubts cast that he could have had his jacket removed by a zulu, then this zulu could have himself been killed, or another theory was that soldiers replaced lost buttons with any other buttons they came accross, so it could just be a replacement button that a soldier had used. Another theory was that an animal could have moved some remains, and by chance, left the remains nearby this button, so the research goes on to try to identify this poor fellow.

Glad you are well mate, and thank you, yes, up to press, all well here.

Martin.

Good post Martin.

LH. What do you define as a "Last Stand" would be interested to know.

Hi Littlehand.
I'm not doubting that the odd zulu here and there may have become mixed up with the soldiers remains , but not in the region
of anywhere near 40 or 50 as I believe you mentioned regarding clusters of men. These clusters are none other than last stands , ie groups of troops banded together and went down together , this is common place on battlefields , unless a rout has taken place and there are small groups of individuals together say no more than 3 or so . But looking at that , 3 in a cluster can also be described as a last stand as that was where they fought and died. Hope this makes sense .
cheers 90th.

Sorry folks.
In my infantile method of compiling the map earlier Ive shown Durnfords donga incorrectly. It is in fact the scaring to the right, further away from the mountain.
Humblest groveling.

Littlehand
Stay with your opinion mate, world would be boring as hell if we all thought the same.( So would this forum )

PS.... Your wrong :lol:

Cheers

Is it known how many soldiers in the 24th regiments were at Isandlwana that day approx numbers will do.

24th
I have some figures ( the fundis will rip this to shreds )
1st Bat. 429
2nd Bat 176
RA 75
IMI 31
RE 7
NMP 34
Carb 29
NMR 14
BBG 8
NNC 1/1 323
NNC 1/3 242
NNC 2/3 337
NNM 263
ASC 4
AHC 11
AMD 1
Pioneers 11

Approx Totals 2011

Interesting.

DB 24th numbers come to 348
Springbok's 605

So what happen to the other 257 members of the 24th Regiments

Hi all

The only book that gives the right effectifs for each unit for the British at Isandhlwana is ES.

There are plenty of mistakes on what is indicated above, the preceding posts ...

There never was of Zulus killed while wearing a piece of British uniform because he could not fight wearing this kind of thing ...

If the battle ended at 16.00 pm, it is precisely because the officers were there, it's them who have grouped men in all units.

Without officers, there would be no organized resistance had to...

Cheers

Pascal

Each company was around 80 strong. There was a great many men of the 24th, orlderly, servants, pioneers.

Quote :

LH. What do you define as a "Last Stand" would be interested to know.

This 24th [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hi all

I have no doubt that groups of men did fight and die together, and that some became isolated or cut off from larger groups they were trying to get to in search of ammo or support. These smaller groups and individuals would have stood little or no chance against the overwhelming storm of zulu's that flooded the camp, however, they could well have stood back to back and killed one or two zulu's before being killed themselves. The larger groups could well have put up a stiffer resistance and taken down quite a few zulu's before their own end came, so LH might be right about some zulu's getting mixed up with the soldiers, and ending up being buried with them when the burial party's came to bury their fallen mates.

No matter how many groups of men there were, zulu accounts say that they were indeed very brave men, and that they fought like lions, so all honour and respect to them, each and every one.

Martin.

Hi Martin. Good to see someone partly agrees.

Quote :

zulu accounts say that they were indeed very brave men, and that they fought like lions

I can't go with this. Is sounds so typically English to me, And i not sure why!!!!!

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Have you read Mitford ?

A section of the Statement by Captain Alan Gardner, 14th Hussars. Camp, Rorke's Drift, January 26, 1879.

Leaving the mounted men who were under Captain Bradstreet, I returned to Lieutenant-Colonel Pulleine who had previously told me to remain with him. Shortly afterwards, observing the mounted men retiring, I rode back to ascertain the cause. Captain Bradstreet told me he had been ordered to do so by Colonel Durnford, who soon afterwards told me himself that he considered our position too extended, and wished to collect all the troops together. But it was now too late. Large masses of the enemy were already in the camp and completely surrounded the men of the 24th Regiment. Numbers of these were also on the road to Rorke's Drift. The guns limbered up and attempted to retire to the left of that road, but were surrounded and overturned. The few mounted men remaining retreated up the small hill on the right rear of the camp, but were soon surrounded by the enemy advancing from the left and front. Many were killed. A few of us managed to escape by riding down the hill on the right, but many were shot riding along the narrow valley, and more drowned and shot in crossing the Buffalo.

There is no mention by Gardner of men forming in to squares or whatever. They all seemed to have been trying to escape one way or another.





A section from Captain Essex's Evidence. Rorke's Drift, January 24, 1879.

At about twelve o'clock, hearing firing on the hill where the company 1st Battalion 24th Regiment was stationed, I proceeded in that direction. On my way I passed a company of the 1st Battalion 24th Regiment, under command of Captain Mostyn, who requested me, being mounted, to direct Lieutenant Cavaye
to take special care not to endanger the right of his company, and to inform that officer that he himself was moving up to the left. I also noticed a body of Lieutenant-Colonel Dunford's mounted natives retiring down the hill, but did not see the enemy. On arriving at the far side of the crest of the hill, I found the company in charge of Lieutenant Cavaye, a section being detached about 500 yards to the left, in charge of Lieutenant Dyson. The whole were in extended order engaging the enemy, who was moving in similar formation towards our left, keeping at about 800 yards from our line. Captain Mostyn moved his company into the space between the portions of that already on the hill, and his men then extended and entered into action. This line was then prolonged on our right along the crest of the hill by a body of native infantry. I observed that the enemy made little progress as regards his advance, but appeared to be moving at a rapid pace towards our left. The right extremity of the enemy's line was very thin, but increased in depth towards and beyond our right as far as I could see, a hill interfering with an extended view. About five minutes after the arrival of Captain Mostyn's Company I was informed by Lieutenant Melville, Adjutant, 1st Battalion 24th Regiment, that a fresh body of the enemy was appearing in force in our rear, and he requested me to direct the left of. the line formed, as above described, to fall slowly back, keeping up the fire. This I did; then proceeded towards the centre of the line. I found, however, that it had already retired. I therefore followed in the same direction, but being mounted had great difficulty in descending the hill, the ground being very rocky and precipitous. On arriving at the foot of the slope I found the two companies of 1st Battalion 24th Regiment drawn up at about 400 yards distant in extended order, and Captain Younghusband's company in a similar formation in echelon on the left. The enemy was descending the hill, having rushed forward as soon as our men disappeared below the crest, and beyond (?) the right of the line with which I was present had even arrived near the foot of the hill. The enemy's fire had hitherto been very wild and ineffective, now, however, a. few casualties began to occur in our line. The companies 1st Battalion 24th Regiment first engaged were now becoming short of ammunition, and at the request of the officer in charge I went to procure a fresh supply with the assistance of Quartermaster 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment and some men of the Royal Artillery. I had some boxes placed on a mule cart and sent it off to the companies engaged, and sent more by hand, employing any men without arms. I then went back to the line, telling the men that plenty of ammunition was coming. I found that the companies 1st Battalion 24th. Regiment before alluded, to had retired to within 300 yards of that portion of the camp occupied by the Native Contingent. On my way I noticed a number of native infantry retreating in haste towards the camp, their officer endeavouring to prevent them but without effect. On looking round to that portion of the field to our right and rear I saw that the enemy was surrounding us. I rode up to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford, who was near the right, and pointed this out to him. He requested me to take men to that part of the field and endeavour to hold the enemy in check; but while he was speaking, those men of the Native Contingent who had remained in action rushed past us in the utmost disorder, thus laying open the right and rear of the companies of 1st Battalion 24th Regiment on the left, and the enemy dashing forward in a most rapid manner poured in at this part of the line. In a moment all was disorder, and few of the men of 1st Battalion 24th Regiment had time to fix bayonets before the enemy was among them using their assegais with fearful effect. I heard officers calling to their men to be steady; but the retreat became in a few seconds general, and in a direction towards the road to Rorke's Drift. Before, however, we gained the neck near the Isandlwana Hill the enemy had arrived on that portion of the field also, and the large circle he had now formed closed in on us. The only space which appeared opened was down a deep gully running to the south of the road into which we plunged in great confusion.

Mostly about soldiers retreating and running low on ammo.

A section from From Lieutenant Curling to Officer Commanding No. 8. Helpmakaar, January 26, 1879.

About twelve o'clock we were, turned out, as heavy firing was heard in the direction of Colonel Durnford's force. Major Smith arrived as we were turning out and took command of the guns, we trotted up to a position about 400 yards beyond the left front of the Natal Contingent Camp, and came into action at once on a large body of the enemy about 3,400 yards off. The 1st Battalion 24th Regiment soon came up and extended in skirmishing order on both flanks and in line with us. In about a quarter of an hour, Major Smith took away one gun to the right, as the enemy were appearing in large numbers in the direction of the Drift, in the stream in front of the camp. The enemy advanced slowly, without halting; when they were 400 yards off, the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment advanced about 30 yards. We remained in the same position. Major Smith, returned at this time with his gun, and came into action beside mine. The enemy advancing still, we began firing case, but almost immediately the infantry were ordered to retire. Before we could get away, the enemy were by the guns; and I saw one gunner stabbed as he was mounting on to an axle-tree box. The limber gunners did not mount, but ran after the guns. We went straight through the camp but found the enemy in possession. The gunners were all stabbed going through the camp with the exception of one or two. One of the two sergeants was also killed at this time. When we got on to the road to Rorke's Drift it was completely blocked up by Zulus. I was with Major Smith at this time, he told me he had been wounded in the arm.

The British advance 30 yards but almost immediately order to retire.


Perhaps LH & Martin are correct.

They men hadn't reached the camp by the time they left, they were still retreating.

A smaller section of the Statement by Captain Alan Gardner, 14th Hussars. Camp, Rorke's Drift, January 26, 1879.


"But it was now too late. Large masses of the enemy were already in the camp and completely surrounded the men of the 24th Regiment"

And this is the sign of respect from the Zulu's who thought the British were so brave at Isandlwana..

'Why could not the whites fight with us in the open? But if they are too much afraid to do this, we have never fought with men who were so much afraid of death as these. They are continually making holes in the ground and mounds left open with little holes to shoot through. The English burrow in the ground like pigs.

That was clearly after Kambula and Gingindlovu.

Chard
If your going to quote statements then you do need to put them all into a time frame context. Gardner, Essex, Curling et al all left while the fighting was in progress. Their statements are about a small area of the fight that they saw, none of them had an overview, all of them were confined to the saddle area. From their positions they couldnt even see the front line.
There is an abundance of proof thats been posted recently as to the times the fighting continued, well after 3 oclock, and closer to 3.30.
One instance, Rev Smith Witt and Reynolds saw the fighting from the top of Shiyane and at the same time saw the iNdluyengwe crossing the Mzinyathi and forming up. That fixes a time very firmly as no more than 30minutes before th attack on RD.

One simple question to one and all.

How could the fight continue for that long without some form of grouping ?

Sorry two questions.

How did the three on Shiyane see troops fighting in a kraal on the back of the saddle.

Theres a hang of a lot of other testimony that would have to be repudiated before you can come close to denying the length of the fight.

Regards

hI all

After Hlobane, it is mainly Zulu who are brave ...

Cheers

Pascal

I recall reading somewhere that various times were given by the Reynolds and co. So I'm not sure we can count on that as fixing the time firmly.

Chard. Thanks but I not really interested in what any of those who left Isandlwana had to say at the so called court of enquiry.

24th like wise I don't believe for a moment they had good view of Isandwana.

Quote :

How could the fight continue for that long without some form of grouping ?

It might very well prove that the men were not forming in groups or squares. Having to take down indivuals or pairs could be quite time consuming.
We then have the take into account the celebration time, Zulus discharging weapons to signify their Victory, that rifle fire could have quite easy have been mistaken for the continuation of the Batte.

Commandant Lonsdale reported that Isandlwana had been taken around 16:00hrs. So this puts him trotting up to camp around 15:15. He only saw Zulus in red coats.

And don't forget the last of the 24th in the cave. He fired many shots at the Zulus and they fired many shots at him. Time consuming. But that's if you believe that story.

littlehand wrote:

Commandant Lonsdale reported that Isandlwana had been taken around 16:00hrs.

Thats over 2 and a half hours after the fugities left.

Quote :

When they were surounding the troops at the camp, on the Nek of the plain, 2 officer with peices of glass in their eyes came forward firing at him with there revolvers. One of them was shot down but the other continued to fire, one grazing the right side of his neck, another grazing his left side, and another entering his leg. The Induna flung an assegai, which entered the officers breast. The officers with surpreme effort almost succeeded in pulling out the weapon bu the Induna fell on him and finished his dreadful work with another assegai

Odd how this story only mentions two officers. Were these two officers alone.

There Lts Pope and Godwin-Austin, they had lost most of their company on the retreat.

Quote :

they had lost most of their company on the retreat.

Most!! It must have been all!! This Induna only mentions two. Could this company retreat have been more of a get the hell out of here. Leaving these two officers behind to face their fate..