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Zulu Dawn:“Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
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 Hand to hand conflict

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Tomozulu



Posts : 12
Join date : 2011-09-25

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PostSubject: Hand to hand conflict   Hand to hand conflict EmptyThu Oct 06, 2011 12:54 pm

I have read many times how much the Zulus respected the bayonet. The casualties at isandlwhana would not suggest the British killed many Zulus at close quarters certainly less than 1 to 2.

How much in favour at close quarters was the assegai and shield to rifle and bayonet?

In a 1 on 1 queens bury rules contest what percentage goes to the Zulu. I suspect 2 to 1 in favour of the Zulu.

Thoughts welcome
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90th

90th

Posts : 10326
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 65
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Hand to hand conflict    Hand to hand conflict EmptyThu Oct 06, 2011 3:37 pm

Hi Tomozulu .
I seem to remember this topic on here a year or so back . Possibly longer and there were several posts on the subject .
cheers 90th. Idea
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ciscokid



Posts : 187
Join date : 2010-02-04

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PostSubject: Re: Hand to hand conflict   Hand to hand conflict EmptySat Oct 08, 2011 11:56 am

I know it's been covered before, but can't remember this being mentioned - I am guessing that the bayonet would have been made with forged steel? Now would the Zulu spears have been anywhere near as sharp? What I'm thinking is that a Zulu would have to push the spear in to have an effect, where as a sharpened bayonet could be uses to slash.

I know that the Zulu's were practiced in hand-to-hand combat, but I'm guessing the lads of the 24th were hardly a push over, I've also been told that on average the Zulu's were an inch or two bigger in height.

Sounds by all accounts that the Brits gave as good as they got, I'd go for 50/50.

We all know from the film Zulu that C S Bourne can never be beaten mano-a-mano... :lol:
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Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

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PostSubject: Re: Hand to hand conflict   Hand to hand conflict EmptySat Oct 08, 2011 1:07 pm

Cisco
The P53/74 and P76 bayonet has no edges, its a purely a triangular lunging stabbing weapon. (you cannot stitch a triangular wound). The object of the bayonet in defence is the same as a porcupine, multi directional points.


Bayonet drill, was a huge part of a Victorian army repetition training, with special "drill arms", sprung loaded dummy rifles to offer the same resistive properties of human flesh. It was introduced as Musket, Spring Bayonet LOC 807 16.6.1863, and LOC 1605 18.10.1867. Many Martini's were converted to Drill trainers in the late C19th.

Testimony to the effectiveness of bayonet drill can be found in the use of the weapon in both offensive and defensive role, and many visitors to the site could do no better than further reading of contemporary campaigns, using the same weapon system. Afghanistan, Egypt, Sudan & Asia. I do not offer "what ifs," where no primary source is available or lived to tell the tail, but draw conclusions by typical actions of its type, i.e native forces armed with a variety of obsolete firearms & edged weopons.
Offensive: Tel El Kebir 1881, & Khandahar 1880.
Defenesive: Abu Klea, Tofrek and Rorkes Drift.
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PostSubject: Re: Hand to hand conflict   Hand to hand conflict EmptySat Oct 08, 2011 2:15 pm

The MH rifle with fixed bayonet certainly had the reach, but the Zulus really had the advantage of 2 weapons, one defensive, being the shield, allowing the deflection by the piercing of the bayonet pulling it down or to the side, whilst with the offensive weapon, being the assegai, lunging in at the unprotected torso.
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