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 Zulu army at Isandhlwana

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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 8:40 pm


Good evening everyone

Ah, when in 1881, Captain J.S. Rothwell,R.A. described the Zulu army at Isandhlwana from statements made ​​by Zulu Who present at Isandhlwana, it appears that Ketchwayo's army ,13100 strong ,was organised in Three bodies ...

Firstly the right horn was composed of a total of 4930 warriors :
- The Nodwengu Corps ( incorporating the uDududu regiment, iMbube regiment and isAngqu regiment) with a total of 1220 warriors ...
- The Nokenke regiment with a total of 830 warriors ...
- The Umcityu regiment (incorporating the umThulisazwe regiment and the iKhentu regiment ) with a total of 2880 warriors ...

Secondly the chest was made ​​by a total of 4500 warriors :
- The 'Mbonambi regiment (formed by the inKonyan'ebomvu section,uBhewula section,inDwali section and iShudu section) with a total of 1240 warriors ...
- The 'Nkobamakosi regiment (incorporating the uVe regiment ) with a total of 3260 warriors ...

Thirdly the left horn was composed of a total of 3670 warriors :
- The Tulwana regiment ( incorporating the isiBabule regiment ,the iNkonkoni regiment ,the iNdlondlo regiment and the iNdluyengwe regiment ) with a total of 2450 warriors ...
- The Qikazi regiment with a total of 1220 warriors ...

For the attack of the camp, the Zulu regiments Were in the Following order:

The right horn was composed of a total of 2050 warriors :
- The Nokenke regiment with a total of 830 warriors ...
- The Nodwengu Corps ( incorporating the uDududu regiment, iMbube regiment and isAngqu regiment) with a total of 1220 warriors ...

the chest was made ​​by a total of 4120 warriors :
- The 'Mbonambi regiment (formed by the inKonyan'ebomvu section,uBhewula section,inDwali section and iShudu section) with a total of 1240 warriors ...
- The Umcityu regiment next to the 'Mbonambi regiment (incorporating the umThulisazwe regiment and the iKhentu regiment ) with a total of 2880 warriors ...

the left horn was composed of a total of 3260 warriors :
- The 'Nkobamakosi regiment (incorporating the uVe regiment ) with a total of 3260 warriors ...


And Tshingwayo ordered The Tulwana ( incorporating the isiBabule regiment ,the iNkonkoni regiment ,the iNdlondlo regiment and the iNdluyengwe regiment ) with a total of 2450 warriors ...and the Qikazi regiment with a total of 1220 warriors ,wiich were on the left,to form cercle,and remain in reserve,forming the loins of the impi with a total of 3670 warriors ,but afterwards,Tshingwayo sent these regiments forward,directing them to move to the extreme right by the west of the Isandhlwana hill.

These 3670 warriors who were commanded by Dabulamanzi,a 1/2 brother or brother of Ketchwayo's,seized the road to Rorke's Drift , and , when the camp had been captured , moved off tho that place and formed and formed the force which attacked the post...

So the 71 officers & 1.940 NCO and men of the British imperial army and the British colonial troops accompanied by 300 Black African voorloopers, grooms (Certainly armed, although they might not have all firearms) and by 2-3 doz of White Civilian contractors, interpreters etc. (which they had certainly all weapons fire) a total of 2347 men for the plupard well-armed (a far cry from 1774 defenders usually described ) were massacred by 9430 warriors (which today are counted 20900 to 21400 warriors !) straight out of the Stone Age...

All this only to find that the size of the magnificent Zulu increasing steadily, century after century when it comes to Isandhlwana ...

Because since the beginning of the XXI century, the Zulu army is presented with:

The right horn ,composed of a total of 3500 or 4000 warriors :
- The uDududu regiment with a total of 1500 warriors ...
- The iMbube regiment with a total of 500 or 1000 warriors ...
- The isAngqu regiment with a total of 1500 warriors ...

the chest was now made ​​by a total of 9000 warriors :
- The Nokenke regiment with a total of 2000 warriors ...
- The Umcityu regiment (incorporating the umThulisazwe regiment and the iKhentu regiment ) with a total of 2500 warriors ...
- The'Mbonambi regiment (formed by the inKonyan'ebomvu section,uBhewula section,inDwali section and iShudu section)next to the Umcityu regiment with a total of 2000 warriors ...

And with a supplement of 2500 other warriors (element from the uMxapho,most of whom were fighting in the coastal sector,small detachments of very old amabutho from elderly age grads,such as the uMkhulushane (incorporating the umHaye regimeent , the iHlaba regiment and the uKhokhothi regiment ) with in supplement ,men who had joined the army from chiefdoms through which it had marched ).

the left horn was composed of a total of 6000 warriors :
- The 'Nkobamakosi regiment with a total of 4000 warriors ...
- The uVe regiment with a total of 2000 warriors ...

And now the loins was composed of a total of 5900 warriors :
-The Tulwana ( incorporating the isiBabule regiment and the iNkonkoni regiment) with a total of 1500 warriors;...
-The Qikazi regiment with a total of 2500 warriors ...
-The iNdlondlo regiment with a total of 900 warriors ...
-The iNdluyengwe regiment with a total of 1000 warriors ...

As you can see, our brave Zulu army rose from 13,100 warriors to 24,900 warriors ...

And as Rorke's Drift was attacked by 3500 warriors maximum, we can say that with the reinforcement of 2500 warriors of the loins ,it is today,20900 to 21400 warriors who attacked the camp of Isandhlwana...not 9430 warriors ....

Do not you think that the numbers of Zulu given by modern historians are delusional and crazy and those given by the Captain J.S. Rothwell,R.A. more realistic ?


After all, he was a British officer and to increase the glory of victims of that idiot of Chelmsford , he would rather give zulu numbers like those give modern historians, this proves his honnetetée and the realism of the figures he gives , right?

Summary of British Unit Strengths victims of Chelmsford...
Column Staff 7 & 11
HQ and 5 x Coys 1st/24th 16 & 398
90th Regt (att 1st/24th) 0& 6
G Coy and Rear Details 2nd/24th 5 & 171
N Battery, 5th Bde, RA (2 x 7 pdrs) 2 & 71
Rocket Battery with 3 troughs 1 & 9
RE 2 & 5
No 1 Sqn Imperial Mounted Infantry 0 & 31
NMP 0 & 34
NC 2 & 27
NMR 2 & 12
BBG 1 & 7
2 x Coys 1st/1st NNC 5 & 318
2 x Coys 1st/3rd NNC 11 & 231
3 x Coys 2nd/3rd NNC 9 & 328
5 x Troops NNMC 6 & 257
Army Service Corps (ASC) 0 & 4
Army Hospital Corps (AHC) 1 & 10
Army Medical Department (AMD) 1 & 0
Native Pioneers 1 & 10

Black African voorloopers, grooms et Unknown but approx 300 approx
White civilian contractors, interpreters etc Unknown but estimated 2-3 doz

Total [not including civilians] 71 & 1,940 [approx

Cheers

Pascal














































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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 8:51 pm

Hi pascal

The men even back in 1879 estimated the numbers of warriors that attacked to be over 12,000, remeber they only saw the left horn and the chest.

There where 12 regiments that attacked Isandlwana, each would have been around 1,000 strong, so
a total of around 20,000 attacking doesn't seem that far off, the Uve where over 3,000.

The Uve made up the left horn with another regiment so that must have been over 4,500 srtong.



Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 9:19 pm

good evening

Who is right, Captain J.S. Rothwell,R.A.
or modern historians?

even the number of defenders are often disputes...

Cheers

Pascal













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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 9:27 pm

I don't know Idea

But i would say that at least 18,000 Zulus attacked the camp at Isandlwana

As to the numbers that will never be known.

The NNC weren't properly counted, neither where the Black wagon drivers and civilains.





Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyThu Dec 15, 2011 7:32 am

Hello Drummer Boy 14

The number of colonia lblack troops are well-known , clan by clan, by infantry or engineers companies by infantry or engineerscompanies and by cavalry troops by cavalry troops and you will find all this in:

"Black Soldiers of the Queen, the Natal Native Contingent in the Anglo-Zulu War by PS Thompson ...

As you see the problem with the numbers given after Zulu.

At 9.51pm yesterday you said that there were 12 regiments with around 1000 men each, and then to 10.27 pm, they were 18 000 , their numbers swelled to 6000 men in 36 minutes !

In my opinion that it the Captain J.S.Rothwell,R.A. telling the truth...

Do not forget, he was informed by the Zulu present in this battle and as everyone knows the Zulu never lie ...

As for civilians, black or white, we know their numbers by inference, given their function, and they were armed, which greatly increases the number of defenders of the camp.

Cheers

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyThu Dec 15, 2011 7:40 am

Hi Pascal

Sorry for any confusion Idea

The regimants were around 1,000 each

But the Uve was 3,000 and i think another was over 2,000

The men that attacked Isandlwana had come from all over Zululand to defend there countrey

They were described as streching right to the sea and back.


Cheers
DB14

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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyThu Dec 15, 2011 10:35 am


You know Dear Drummer Boy 14, there's a nice way to get an idea of ​​the Zulu army ...

It would be found would be appropriate documentation on the number of companies per Zulu regiment ...

This must exist somewhere, because it was the system that Rothwell andBritish Staff used in 1878 /1879 to calculate the actual Zulu number ...

For example, the Zulu regiment Umcityu had 49 companies...

Is there someone who has this kind of information on this forum?

Cheers

Pascal













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90th

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PostSubject: zulu army at isandlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyThu Dec 15, 2011 1:18 pm

Hi all.
This is an interesting 50 page or so booklet on the zulu country , covers many aspects from the Geography of the nation , climate ,
Landing places , agriculture , the army , history and other littleknown gems of info . There is no descriptive info of the war
or the battles , but quite interesting nontheless , unfortunately for me the map that is supposed to be in the book wasnt in my
copy ! Suspect . This link is the cheapest I found and it is not that readily available , check the postage rates as those shown will
be to Australia .

http://www.amazon.com/Information-concerning-Intelligence-Quarter-Master-Generals-Department/dp/1241522359/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323954338&sr=1-2

cheers 90th.
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bill cainan



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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyThu Dec 15, 2011 3:39 pm

Hi all

The information is contained in "The Zulu Army and Zulu Headmen" - a small pamphlet reprinted by the Naval and Military Press and available from either the National Army Museum of the Brecon Museum (we sell them for £9.50 in our museum - shameless plug !). This is a reprint of the pamphlet that Lord Chelmsford had prepared for all his officers prior to the first invasion of Zululand.

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyThu Dec 15, 2011 3:41 pm

Oops - second line of message above - dwlete "of" and insert "or" !!!

Bill
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyThu Dec 15, 2011 3:50 pm

I was thinking

To attack the front of the camp at least 10,000 warroirs

The horns at least 4,000 each

The reseverve another 4,000


Cheers
DB14

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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyFri Dec 16, 2011 8:06 am

Hi DB 14

There is not to say, I prefer the numbers given by the Captain JS Rothwell, RA than those of modern historians who seem to have a lot of bias.

It'd be nice to know where Captain JS Rothwell, RA has obtained the numbers Zulu, not with the Zulus who calculated their actual number per companies in each regiment, and not in men,may be based on the pamphlet that Chelmsford had prepared for all his officers prior to the first invasion of Zululand ?...

I hope to read it one day, just to laugh ...

There was no need for 18,000 Zulu warriors to crush the defenders of Isandhlwana.

Because the defenders had the wrong type of deployment, a new tactical rules, abandon it for the following battles or Chelmsford is present and which, thought of having to deal with the Xhosa warriors ...

In addition they were too confident in the capacity of Martini-Henry rifles after their success against the Xhosa ...

Cheers

Pascal


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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyFri Dec 16, 2011 11:00 am

Really? Didn't know that!
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyFri Dec 16, 2011 12:17 pm

Quote :
There was no need for 18,000 Zulu warriors to crush the defenders of Isandhlwana.
Correct.

Regardless of who's to blame for what. Superior numbers won the day.
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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyFri Dec 16, 2011 1:14 pm


Except that Chelmsford and Pulleine were a nullitée incredible, it boggles ...

It is really surprising that the survivors are not required to account Chelmsford after the war ...

With Cunynghame or Wolseley as Commander in Chief and Glyn at Isandhlwana, none of this would have happened ...

Cheers

Pascal


































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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyFri Dec 16, 2011 4:59 pm

No matter what happened on the 22nd, the Zulus would always have won Idea


Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyFri Dec 16, 2011 9:34 pm


False ! DB 14

If he had to do a energetic camp commander who knew the Zulu and do not underestimate them...

the defenders without entrenchments could disgust them, with a big square backed Mount Isandhlwana, consisting of the imperial infantry and all the cavalrymen dismounted , both guns at the two outside corners of the square with the black infantry in the center of the square, all the boxes of ammunition prepared, despite the losses they could take Impressed and disgusted the Zulu...

The defeats are always the responsibility of the commanders...

Chelmsford knew really nothing to Zulu, imagine what would have
passed, if instead of attacking the camps, the Zulu had attacked the troops of Chelmsford and Dartnell Iin the south le 22 January 1879...

The disaster would have even greater...

Chelmsford imagined beings can beat the Zulu army in a pitched battle as those delivered with the Xhosa.

If he had a can better learn about the ways in which the Boers had defeated the Zulu in the past ...

But he did not even bother to inquire about the opponent he was so stupid ...

Anyone in his place would have learned about the Zulus ...

And also have launched three columns in Zululand was two too many...

With only one big column with six Imperial infantry battalions , all the artillery and the mounted troops assembled ,starting from the lower Tukhela, using the tactics of Gingindlovu or Ulundi battles and the war would have been a Zulu walk without interests...

The other problem is the military conservatism and this also applies to the Zulus, whose king and the generals were very intelligent, but young warriors very unruly ...

What would have happened if the Zulu warriors had followed the instructions given by the king ...

In 1893 the Matabele were beaten exactly the same reasons and in the same way ...

If the impi had attacked the troops when they were to cross rivers ...

And during the second invasion, they would have attacked the troops moving between each fortification.

But their conservatism and their military discipline, all this was impossible.

Cheers

Pascal

























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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyFri Dec 16, 2011 9:42 pm

I am on Pascal's side - the Zulu's were close to giving up without the speech by the Zulu commander who was shot just after, then the whole army rose up. If the Brisith has a few hundread more guns then the battle would have been theirs.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyFri Dec 16, 2011 9:50 pm

Hi Pascal and cisokid

Ok well lets look at what was happening

The chest had stopped the attack but


The right horn was about to break into the camp from behind, there was no-one aprt from Shepstones stand of NNC to stop it.

The reserve of over 4,000 was still waiting, they could have gone in with the right horn.

The left horn was advacing on G Company, they where completly destroyed and failed to make it back to the camp.


Then look at Kambula, they had been ready for an attack and the Zulus still got into the waggons.

The square formation wasn't used and most likly wouldn't work anyway.


Cheers
DB14


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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySat Dec 17, 2011 8:12 am


Hi all

But not !

With another commander that Pulleine, since there was not what it takes to make a laager,the first thing to do was sleep all the tents, and Chemlsford observers would have understood that the camp was attacked...

Then send messengers to Chemlsford ...

Could the defenders without entrenchment disgust them , with a big square backed Mount Isandhlwana, consisting of the imperial infantry and all the dismounted cavalrymen, both two guns at two corners of the square with the black infantry in the center of the square, all the boxes of ammunition prepared, despite the Losses they could take the Zulu Impressed and disgusted ...

Whatever the direction from where the , by attacking a square like the one I described, the Zulus would have been disgusted and Zulu attacks against the rear of the square are impossibles if he is backed to Mount Isandlwana, his rear was impassable ...

Being surrounded is not important since a square is for this.

Between the first time or the Zulus are identified and their first attack, the defenders had time to do what I explained.

Indeed this is what has been practiced against the Dervishes in the first campaign against them and it worked...

But for all this would have required that Pulleine and Durnsford who have not understood are not present...

Cheers

Pascal













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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySat Dec 17, 2011 8:48 am

Pascal
Hindsight's a wonderful thing! I would've legged it from the off!
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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySat Dec 17, 2011 9:42 am

Decidedly I do not understand what you say !
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySat Dec 17, 2011 11:32 am

Hi

Well dropping the tents

First off Gardner arrived with a note to strike the camp, this causes confusion becasue its far to late in the day to do this.

Shepstone arrives and tells him he has Thousands of Zulus advacing on the camp.

Cavaye comes into action on the Spur firing volleys at unseen targets

What to do??

Call fall in and get on your horse and go command the battle

Tents??

Wouldn't have entered his mind

If they had been struck then Chelsmford may have just assumed that they where being taken down to be packed up ready for the move.

The Square would have been shot to peices by the Zulu anyway, 1 in 4 of them carrried a gun.

The square wasn't used during the beggining of the war because it was thought to be to old.

The square would have broken, with only 200 rifles per face against 18,000 charging Zulus

The camp would also have been looted.

Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySat Dec 17, 2011 3:05 pm

DB14 :

Hi

DB14 :

Well dropping the tents


Pascal :

First reports reach Pulleine at Isandhlwana at 8.00 am of zulu movements on the iNyoni hills.The defenders had the time to drop the tents and form square at the foot of Mont Issandhlwana ... Before the first attack ...Because this day after this first report,the troops were got under arms ,and drawn up in front of the camp,facing in the direction from which the Zulu was reported to be coming and a mounted man being sent off with a brief despatch to acquaint Chelmsford of the circonstance.


DB14 :

First off Gardner arrived with a note to strike the camp, this causes confusion becasue its far to late in the day to do this.


Pascal :

There would be no confusion if it had been performed immediately after the first reports of the zulu movements on
the iNyoni hills.


DB14 :

Shepstone arrives and tells him he has Thousands of Zulus advacing on the camp.

Pascal :

N° .1 Mounted Natal Native Contingent Troop under Lieutenant Raw,who was accompanied by Captain G.Shepstone,pursues Zulu foragers over Mabaso hill,and encounter the Zulu army at 11.15 am ,Three hours thirty after the first report! We can do things in three hours thirty...



DB14 :

Cavaye comes into action on the Spur firing volleys at unseen targets


Pascal :

Durnford never had to send Cavaye's company to move to the heights Some 1500 yards north to the camp, what for? Look for mushrooms?
And besides it was not the season for mushrooms...

Pascal :

Durnford was not smarter than Pulleine ...

DB 14:

If they had been struck then Chelsmford may have just assumed that they where being taken down to be packed up ready for the move.

Pascal:

False Chemsford has been advised of the arrival of the Zulu and Pulleine orders for tents and for the rest ,because after first reports reach Pulleine at Isandhlwana at 8.00 am, a mounted man being sent off with a brief despatch to acquaint Chelmsford of the circonstance.

DB 14 :
The Square would have been shot to peices by the Zulu anyway, 1 in 4 of them carrried a gun.

Pascal :
There never was a quarter of a Zulu army in combat with firearms, in addition they were very old and poorly maintained and they could not use it.

In addition, the dervishes with their numerous firearms sometimes very modern ,artillery guns and machine guns and them could use them never bothered british squares ...

DB 14 :

The square wasn't used during the beggining of the war because it was thought to be to old.

Pascal :
They quickly change their minds after Isandhlwana on the usefulness of the square and in all the following colonial wars,even with the advent of repeating rifles...

DB 14 :The square would have broken, with only 200 rifles per face against 18,000 charging Zulus

Pascal :

There never was 18,000 Zulus at Isandhlwana, but a maximum of 13,100, and in counting the reserve ,she has not fought, reread what I wrote earlier in this topic the other day ...And a square made ​​in Britannia can not be broken, otherwise it is not British ...

DB 14 :

The camp would also have been looted.

Pascal :

Who cares, big deal, it would waste time doing a lot of Zulu ...

Cheers

Pascal the old square...


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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySat Dec 17, 2011 4:40 pm

Intresting topic Idea

The camp contained valuble supplies and if that was looted the column would have to have withdrawn to Natal to Restock, big disgrace.

The first report came in and the men stood to, then nothing happened.

There was over 350 tents and that would have taken hours to put back up again
if the Zulus turned out to be skirmisers, Pulliene would have been the laughing stock of the army.

A sqaure wasn't used because Chemsford had given spefic orders as to what to do if attacked, Pulliene
followed these instructions.

The Square, well the NNC would have to have run away as well as all the cattle used to transpport wagons would have been massercered, then the column can't go anywhere.

The numbers that attacked the camp, they where at least 18,000.

200 rifles to shoot down 4,500 warriors??

Durnford left the camp to protect Chelsmford, his orders where vague

You are to march to this camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column.
Major Bengough's Battalion is to move to Rorke's Drift, as ordered yesterday.
2/24. Artillery and mounted men, with the General and Colonel Glyn, move off at once to attack a Zulu Force about 10 miles distant.
(Sd) J. N. C.
If Bengough's Battalion has crossed the River at Eland's Kraal it is to move up here. (Nangwana Valley.)” ’


It is plain that there is no order that Durnford stay in the camp.

No matter what happened on the day the Zulus would have won Idea

Kambula, they nearly lost that and they only fought the chest and one horn, the other
having been defeated earlier.

They had been getting ready for over a month to defend that place.



Cheers
DB14

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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySat Dec 17, 2011 6:22 pm

1 / It was to save their skins, not to prevent looting...
2 / It did not happen after the first report by ignorance and contempt of the Zulu as I've already explained ...
3 / Do not hours to over 2000 men to uproot tent pegs of 350 tents...
4 / The instructions in Chelmsford, we do not care and saw the danger as it is not present, this is called the initiative ...
5/Il was to save their skins not prevent a slaughter of cattle ...
6 / 9430 warriors maximum, not 18 000 ...
7 / The defenders had well over 800 modern rifles and carbines to form their square ...
8/Durnford did not have to do this, he knew nothing about Zulu ...
Without him and Pulleine , the massacre would not have occurred ...
9/without Pulleine and Durnford this massacre would not have occurred ...
10 / The defeat of Isandhlwana allowed Wood to receive reinforcements, I do not see the connection, for him to change anything, since he has not abandoned the Zululand despite Isandhlwana ...
Without Chelmsford, Pulleine and Durnford, none of this would have happened ...

Cheers
Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySat Dec 17, 2011 6:45 pm

Hi Pascal

Apart from the report from the Captain what other evidence do you have of Zulu numbers????????


A figure of 9430 is way to low, the warriors came from all over there countrey to protect their land

The left horn alone was over 4,000

That leaves 5,000 warriors to attack the rest if the camp

3,000 to the right horn

And only 2,000 to the chest Suspect

The people that saw the chest estimated numbers at over 12,000


Read

How Can Men Die Better By Mike Snook
Zulu By Saul David
Zulu Rising By Ian Knight
Washing of the spears By Donald Morris
Isandlwana by Adrian Greaves




All that you have said is with the benafit of hindsight Idea

Durnford knew that large numbers of Zulus had been seen. How you might ask?

Chard told him on the way to the camp
Pulliene told him of the sightings

Pope estimated the numbers seen before 10am at over 7,000

Hearing that 7,000 odd Zulus where heading for Chelmsfords rear what was Durnford to do

Sit down and fidle with his moustache??

No he had to find out where they where and stop them form attacking Chelmie's rear.

A square would have lost the whole camp to the enamy, Massive defeat, big embarrisment, retreat after just 11 days in the countrey.

Pulliene was to disobay orders??

It was not the polacy back then to not follow the GOC orders

Kambula was attacked by over 20,000 Zulus

The camp had been ready for an attack for over a month

The camp at Isandlwana had not

With a months hindsight the Zulus still got into the camp at Kambula.

Even if the tents had gone down, Chelmsoford could not have helped.

The camp was lost no matter what Idea

Cheers
DB14

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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySat Dec 17, 2011 9:22 pm


Hi Little Drummer

Apart from the report from the Captain what other evidence do you have of Zulu numbers????????=ridiculas it write the report with the help of veteran Zulu order of the General Staff in 1880 ...it has never been contradicted by anyone, either then or now, not even by modern historians, find me a single historian who criticized the report

A figure of 9430 is ridiculas, the warriors came from all over there countrey to protect their land

The left horn alone was over 4,000 =ridiculas they are the 3260 warriors of the 'Nkobamakosi ...

That leaves 5,000 warriors to attack the rest if the camp=ridiculas, that leaves 7380 warriors to attack the rest of the camp

3,000 to the right horn=ridiculas, they are 2050...

And only 2,000 to the chest =ridiculas,'Mbonambi + Ucityu are 4120...

The people that saw the chest estimated numbers at over 12,000 =ridiculas,'Mbonambi + Ucityu are 4120...

Read

How Can Men Die Better By Mike Snook=ridiculas, with each book, the number grows Zulu, nothing has the value of what accepted the British staff ...

Zulu By Saul David=ridiculas,with each book, the number grows Zulu, nothing has the value of what accepted the British staff ...

Zulu Rising By Ian Knight=ridiculas,with each book, the number grows Zulu, nothing has the value of what accepted the British staff ...

Washing of the spears By Donald Morris=ridiculas,with each book, the number grows Zulu, nothing has the value of what accepted theBritish staff ...

Isandlwana by Adrian Greaves=ridiculas,with each book, the number grows Zulu, nothing has the value of what accepted the British staff ...

All that you have said is with the benafit of hindsight =ridiculas ,more than one historian is close to the event, the less said anything stupid ...

Durnford knew that large numbers of Zulus had been seen. How you might ask?=ridiculas But ,everyone knew this, but this idiot did not understand that they would attack the camps !

Chard told him on the way to the camp
Pulliene told him of the sightings=ridiculas because since 8.00 am all the officers of the camp knew that the Zulus were there for them ...

Pope estimated the numbers seen before 10am at over 7,000=ridiculas ,estimates are misleading ...

Hearing that 7,000 odd Zulus where heading for Chelmsfords rear what was Durnford to do=ridiculas Durnford's Who decided that the Zulus would attack Chelmsford ... He should have asked for their views Zulu ...

Sit down and fidle with his moustache??=Yes,it would have been more useful by sitting to do what he wants with his mustache

No he had to find out where they where and stop them form attacking Chelmie's rear.=ridiculas Durnford's Who decided that the Zulus would attack Chelmsford ... He should have asked for their views Zulu ...


A square would have lost the whole camp to the enamy, Massive defeat, big embarrisment, retreat after just 11 days in the countrey..=ridiculas ,this is what happened and without square...

Pulliene was to disobay orders??=Yes,yes,yes !

It was not the polacy back then to not follow the GOC orders=ridiculas,it must rather be alive than polished and dead...

Kambula was attacked by over 20,000 Zulus= Yes ,estimated at 20,000 strong + 800 to 1000 Qulusi by the Captain J.S. Rothwell,R.A. and Buller...

The camp had been ready for an attack for over a month =Thank goodness, they had nothing else to do...

The camp at Isandlwana had not=Here the interest of a square...

With a months hindsight the Zulus still got into the camp at Kambula.=Have let them take the cattle kraal as a courtesy, but not for long

Even if the tents had gone down, Chelmsoford could not have helped.=No, but he would depeche come back, but nevertheless, it would have missed tea time, it will really just missed ...

The camp was lost no matter what =Not with us two weary down instead of Pulleine and Durnford.

Cheers


Pascal










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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySat Dec 17, 2011 10:02 pm

Hi Pascal

Pulliene was tasked to defend the camp
To do that he needed to cover over half a mile of ground
The square wasn't used becasue they had been told not to do so and it would have lost the camp and the supplies that could not be easily replaced.
That alone is a defeat.

Any pray do tell how the Zulu Vetran knew the numbers that attacked the camp Suspect Suspect Suspect
Stop and count them all Suspect Suspect Suspect

You base your statement that there was only 9,000 Zulus attacking from a single report
Do you have any other evividence??

The Uve was over 3,000 strong and the INgobamkhosi was over 1,000
Thoses 2 regiments made up the left horn
That is 4,000 warriors alone

The chest of 4,000 warrriors faced; Two 7-Pounder Guns, 2 troops of NNMC, 5 Companies of British Infantrey, numbers of NNC armed with guns and camp followers with guns.

If it was only 4,000 men with spears VS 600 men with guns that can shoot at over 600 yards then the attack would have been shot to peices completly.

Cheers
DB14

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySun Dec 18, 2011 7:35 am



Hi DB 14

Pulliene was tasked to defend the camp
:lol: He had only disobeyed, no one would have blamed...

To do that he needed to cover over half a mile of ground
:lol: He had only disobeyed, no one would have blamed...

The square wasn't used becasue they had been told not to do so and it would have lost the camp and the supplies that could not be easily replaced.
:lol: The lives of his men should have more to him that the camp...

That alone is a defeat.
:lol: No defeat with a square, look what happened to the dervishes ...

Any pray do tell how the Zulu Vetran knew the numbers that attacked the camp
Wink In the same way that the British officers knew the number of troops ...
Blacks are not more stupid than whites ...

Stop and count them all
Wink In the same way that the British officers knew the number of troops ... Blacks are not more stupid than whites ...


You base your statement that there was only 9,000 Zulus attacking from a single report
Do you have any other evividence??
Wink These are the official numbers provided by the British staff and they have never been contradicted by anyone since, sorry ...

The Uve was over 3,000 strong and the INgobamkhosi was over 1,000
Thoses 2 regiments made up the left horn
That is 4,000 warriors alone
:lol: The Uve was over 2,000 strong and the INgobamkhosi was 4,000
After Ian Knight for example, but it's a modern historian and with each of his books, the Zulu number increases AND
THEIR NUMBERS ARE WRONG.

Thoses 2 regiments made up the left horn
:lol: Yes, but the uve regiment was part of the INgobamkhosi, even if it has fought separately at Isandhlwana...

That is 4,000 warriors alone
Wink Not 6000 After Ian Knight for example, but it's a modern historian and with each of his books, the Zulu number increasesAND
THEIR NUMBERS ARE WRONG.

The chest of 4,000 warrriors faced; Two 7-Pounder Guns, 2 troops of NNMC, 5 Companies of British Infantrey, numbers of NNC armed with guns and camp followers with guns.
Wink Yes that is why the chest was pinned and it is the 'Mbonambi, the uve regiment and INgobamkhosi regiments which allowed to triumph with the help of Durnford ...

If it was only 4,000 men with spears VS 600 men with guns that can shoot at over 600 yards then the attack would have been shot to peices completly
Wink No,the chest was pinned and it is the 'Mbonambi, the uve regiment and INgobamkhosi regiments which allowed to triumph with the help of Durnford ...In addition, the infantry's shooting from 400 yards not 600 yards ...

Cheers
Pascal the old square
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySun Dec 18, 2011 8:58 am

Hi
Why don't you two use the PM service in this debate!
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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySun Dec 18, 2011 10:18 am

Hi Runner 2

Because we love not the PM ... Wink

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySun Dec 18, 2011 11:36 am

runner2 wrote:
Hi
Why don't you two use the PM service in this debate!

Runner 2


Why Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect
Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect

The topic is

Zulu Army at Isandlwana

scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySun Dec 18, 2011 2:35 pm

Hi Pascal

Do you have any more infomation apart from the Captains report??

You can't disobay orders, It was a Victorian army.

If Durnford hadn't found the left horn then the whole camp may have been surprised and massercered.

There where no orders for him to stay in the camp Idea

You are to march to this camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column.
Major Bengough's Battalion is to move to Rorke's Drift, as ordered yesterday.
2/24. Artillery and mounted men, with the General and Colonel Glyn, move off at once to attack a Zulu Force about 10 miles distant.
(Sd) J. N. C.
If Bengough's Battalion has crossed the River at Eland's Kraal it is to move up here. (Nangwana Valley.)” ’


Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySun Dec 18, 2011 4:19 pm

Subject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana Today at 3:35 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Drummer Boy

Do you have any more infomation apart from the Captains report??
Wink No, but it seems that there are also in the pamphlet of Chelmsford of 1878 on the zulu army, for his officers before the war and I was expecting this pamphlet . For the Captain J .S. Rothwell, RA, read "Narrative of the Field Operations connected with the ZULU War of 1879, " of 1880 , there are only the two writings that there are times ...

You can't disobay orders, It was a Victorian army.
Wink Even in the army of Victoria, the disobedience have occurred, see what happened in the war against the Basotho, just before the Crimean War, the orders of the commander in chief has never been followed, then Isandhlwana if the defenders had survived, there would have had no complaints ...


If Durnford hadn't found the left horn then the whole camp may have been surprised and massercered.
Wink At 8.00 am the Zulus were locate, defenders therefore suspected that there was a left horn somewhere ... DurnforAnd they still were surprised and massacred ...d precipitated the defeat in trying to rescue Chemlsford ...

There where no orders for him to stay in the camp

You are to march to this camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column.
Major Bengough's Battalion is to move to Rorke's Drift, as ordered yesterday.
2/24. Artillery and mounted men, with the General and Colonel Glyn, move off at once to attack a Zulu Force about 10 miles distant.
(Sd) J. N. C.
If Bengough's Battalion has crossed the River at Eland's Kraal it is to move up here. (Nangwana Valley.)” ’
Wink At 8.00 am the Zulus Were locate and Durnford knew, so it should organize the defense upon his arrival as you or I have explained, recalling the detachment away from the camp, drop by the tents and form a solid defensive formation at the foot of Mount Isandhlwana, he had 2 hours for this ...

ps:Look your PM please...

Cheers

Pascal

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySun Dec 18, 2011 4:44 pm

Hi Pascal

Pulliene wouldn't form a square, he had been told not to.
He had clear instructions on what to do if attacked

You say he should have disobayed them, how would he know the orders he had been given wouldn't work.

What if the Zulus turned out to be just skirmisers, he would have to spend the rest of the day putting the tents up again and Chemlsford would have removed Pulliene of his command.

Everything you have said is with the benfit of knowing what happened Idea


Cheers
DB14

P.S.
Don't take any notice of Runner2, comment on here.
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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySun Dec 18, 2011 5:44 pm

Bonsoir DB 14

In conclusion Pulleine is a victim of Chelsford Durnford and because of his education ... Mad

The disaster also comes from the re-adjustment of the tactics of the British Army introduced in 1875 which is a disaster in the face of the Zulu ... Neutral

And you what would you do instead of Pulleine? Wink

PS: Look at your PM and your topic on the IMI at Isandhlwana ... Wink

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptySun Dec 18, 2011 5:59 pm

Hi

I have no idea what i would have done, the way i see it the possition was always going to be lost.

If it was me by myself that day i would have legged it back to Natal.

Lord Chelmsofrd was to blame for the defeat

You must think as well

Would the NNMC have stood and fought if they knew thousands of Zulus where coming for them??

Cheers
DB14

P.S.
Thanks for the infomation
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 7:33 am

Hi DB14

I have no idea what i would have done, the way i see it the possition was always going to be lost.

😕 Obeying orders is on as it was ...

If it was me by myself that day i would have legged it back to Natal.

😕 Not very army of Victoria this behavior ...
But if you were commander in chief has Isandhlwana, what would you do?
It is 8.00 am January 22, 1879 at Isandhlwana, Colonel Drummer Boy 14, it just reported a presence Zulu, what are your orders Colonel Drummer Boy? (Before the arrival of Durnford in two hours)

Lord Chelmsofrd was to blame for the defeat

😕 Yes ... and also subbordonnés Durnford and Pulleine ...

You must think as well

Would the NNMC have stood and fought if they knew thousands of Zulus where coming for them??
😕 Because of their poor organization, we can not count on them ...
But it was still brave soldiers...

Cheers

PASCAL
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 11:36 am

Pascal
A number of counters to the points youve raised so well.

Pulleins orders were to defend the camp. To form a square would have meant giving up that really big camp area to the Zulu.
You need to understand the topography, there is no where that a square could be anchored with out being overlooked.
A 'Square' is in actual fact named as a 'Cavalry Receiving Square'. Thats is its object its not intended as a formation that the Zulus could stand of from and shoot away.

You cannot take Chelmsford activities and put them into isolation and cast blame. Look at ALL the actions of the other officers and put the blame where it trully belongs, shared.

There has developed a tendancy over the last few weeks to paint Durnford in the colors of the shining white knight, he wasnt. Brave man, no doubt. Courageous, no doubt. Thick as two short planks, maybe. Impetuous, definitly. Throw into that mix a certain amount of smarting from being spanked by the General Officer Commanding and then being left on the sidelines to wallow in a touch of misery and you have a man that desperatly wanted to redeem himself. And just maybe a man who tried to hard.

Enjoying your posts.

regards
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 11:43 am

The steps that should have been taken at 8am

Send all mouted men out under an officer to find out what is happening

Call Stand to

Set up ammuntion stations all over the camp

Send a note to the GOC,
and do better then advacing In force
write Advacing in the Bloody thousands

Strike the tents

Send men to the rear of Isandlwana to watch what is happening

Pull the men in closer to the camp

I agree this may have stopped Durnford for leaving

Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 1:19 pm

Durnford was in command at Isandhlwana from 10.00am and yet it has never been possible to obey Pulleine because he had the esteem of Chelmsford which was not the case that Durnford was not found in Chelmsford ...

Durnford was a inpulse, but it is thought that the Zulus would attack Chelmsford, for me it is incomprehensible ...

I do not understand why a square would not have been effectively, they have been so against the Dervishes and "terrible heads Laine" ...

Make comparisons, you will see ... If one side of the square was at the foot of Mount Isandhlwana, this side could not have been attacked by the Zulu ...

In fact Chelmsford, Durnford and Pulleine are all accountable to each other for the massacre ...


When I think of poor British soldiers, what they have to endure psychologically before he died, is atrocious ...

I wonder if there is none who committed suicide before being killed? Even if they do not risk being tortured, as American soldiers who fought the Indians ...

I love all all the colonial wars in South Africa (and Rhodesia in 1893 and 1896) of the 8th Cape war until the end of the Zulu rebellion of 1888 that I also love ...

And if you had answers to all my other Topic, although it will help me for next year because I'm not an expert like plupard people on this forum, alas.
Thank you in advance

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Zulu army at Isandhlwana   Zulu army at Isandhlwana EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 1:35 pm

DB 14 The steps that should have been taken at 8am

DB 14 Send all mouted men out under an officer to find out what is happening

Very Happy: OK good &vital

DB 14 Call Stand to

Very Happy: OK good &vital

DB 14 Set up ammuntion stations all over the camp

Very Happy: OK good & vital

DB 14 Send a note to the GOC,

Very Happy: yes OK good&vital

DB 14 and do better then advacing In force

Very Happy: yes OK good&vital

DB 14 write Advacing in the Bloody thousands

Very Happy: yes OK good&vital


DB 14 Strike the tentsyes

Very Happy: OK good&vital


DB 14 Send men to the rear of Isandlwana to watch what is happening

Very Happy: yes OK good&vital


DB 14 Pull the men in closer to the camp

Question How deployment, sir? Quick, quick, the Zulus come!

DB 14 I agree this may have stopped Durnford for leaving
Wink Stop Durnford !

Cheers

Pascal

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