WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» N Batt 5th Bde RA
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyToday at 11:52 am by Rory Reynolds

» NNC Officer List
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyYesterday at 3:46 pm by 1879graves

» S.SMITH Buffalo Border Guard
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyYesterday at 2:43 pm by Brett Hendey

» Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyYesterday at 12:38 pm by Frank Allewell

» Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyYesterday at 6:06 am by SRB1965

» Malicious malware on this site
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 10:26 pm by intombe

» Zulu Victory - Views?
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 6:52 pm by WeekendWarrior

» Isandlwana Survivor photo's
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:56 pm by Julian Whybra

» Anyone got information on this.
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:55 pm by Julian Whybra

» Captn. H. G. Bowen, 88th Foot
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 1:18 pm by gstew88

» The South Africa Medal to HMS Forester - an anomaly?
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyWed Jul 01, 2020 7:41 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lieut. R. F. Dixon NMR
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyWed Jul 01, 2020 5:01 am by 90th

» Next month's DNW medal auction
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue Jun 30, 2020 6:45 am by 90th

» Zulu war medals on eBay
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jun 29, 2020 5:14 pm by SergioD

» John Basten
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jun 28, 2020 1:20 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lieutenant Walter Robert Higginson NNC
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jun 28, 2020 11:19 am by ciroferrara

» Letter home from Eshowe
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyThu Jun 25, 2020 2:24 pm by Blackcat

» Melvill's Revolver Cylinder
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyThu Jun 25, 2020 10:05 am by Drummer Boy 14

» Assistant Commissary W. Winspear Commissariat Department, present at Gingindlovu
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jun 22, 2020 12:05 pm by ADMIN

» Orders to laager at Isandhlwana
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jun 21, 2020 7:11 pm by SRB1965

» morale and the siege at Eshowe
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 9:58 am by Blackcat

» CUNNINGHAM
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 8:43 am by Julian Whybra

» ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySat Jun 13, 2020 6:21 am by 90th

» Diamond Fields Horse in Zululand
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyFri Jun 12, 2020 3:01 pm by Rory Reynolds

» Crimes back in England
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 3:44 pm by Catiline63

» Brevet Major. Henry Spalding of Rorke's Drift and Information for Columns
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySat Jun 06, 2020 12:14 pm by Frank Allewell

» Missing Cairns?
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySat Jun 06, 2020 4:04 am by WeekendWarrior

» RE: William Jenkins Goodson
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyThu Jun 04, 2020 8:09 pm by John Young

» A note on O/6 Battery, Royal Artillery.
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun May 31, 2020 4:09 pm by lydenburg

» Corps of Drums
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun May 31, 2020 10:10 am by John Young

» 2nd Lieutenant Henry Wilson Lovett, 1st/13th
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySat May 30, 2020 11:48 am by John Young

» Philip Bowe 2658/7 Gatling Field Battery 10/7 Brigade Major Owens
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyFri May 29, 2020 7:28 pm by Doranking

» Lieutenant O'Connell, 60th Rifles. 1880 Isandlwana map.
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue May 26, 2020 4:32 pm by Frank Allewell

» More From FindaGrave website
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue May 26, 2020 8:09 am by rai

» Wagons at Isandlwana
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon May 25, 2020 9:25 am by SirGromit

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Rorke's Drift A Soldier's Story with presenter Major John Thomas
Top posters
90th
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
littlehand
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
ADMIN
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
1879graves
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
rusteze
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
John
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
Rory Reynolds
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
Petty Officer Tom
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
WeekendWarrior
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
John Young
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
robgdad
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
SRB1965
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
90th
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
ADMIN
The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_leftThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 BarThe missing five hours.  - Page 9 Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 3
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Adding to the Library
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.

 

 The missing five hours.

Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1 ... 6 ... 8, 9, 10 ... 13 ... 18  Next
AuthorMessage
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1997
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 8:24 pm

littlehand wrote:
The Zulus coming in are only mentioned by him makes it hard to believe.

Why ?
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 8:30 pm

Is common sense, that Brickihill would not have been the only one to have seen them.

The other question you need to ask, Brickhills account has been around for over 133 Years. An yet it is rarely mention, also someone along the way would have picked up on the timings being incorrect which would have been relevant to the overall timeline of the Battle Of Isandlwana. I fairly sure DB is not the one to discover Brickhills watch was wrong.

How do you know he even had a watch.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1997
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 8:32 pm

LH

87 white men survived isandlwana, apart from Brickhill which others would have been at the HQ tent ? Or how
many make refrence to being there ?

Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 8:50 pm

I would have thought most of them, as they were nealy all officers that escape. I also find in hard that this hasn't been mentioned in any Zulu accounts, as it would have been quite an important issue, that they tryed tI make peace before the battle commenced.

Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1997
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 8:57 pm

The Zulus that surrendered were from the army they were Gamada's men, they had been in the camp on the
21st and told to come back the next day with guns. They did.

The officers weren't of the 24th and would have had no place being at the HQ tent.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 9:00 pm

Hang on, reading his account he states Durnford Horse came in a welcome addition to our forces 10:30. He must have realised his watch was wrong. What is odd he doesn't mention Col: Durnford by name leaving the camp, only his men.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1997
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 9:02 pm

Lots of people's timings are wrong, look at Erksine's.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 9:32 pm

"On the fateful morning of the 22nd January, between six and seven o'clock, the Zulus showed in considerable force at the south end of Ingutu Mountain. In a survivors account by JA Brickhill details of the escape from the slaughter are given.

Brickhill writes: “The whole four and a half miles of the Ingutu were by this time covered with Zulus; they kept up a continuous fire upon our men, but appeared to me to shoot at too great a distance to be effectual. The Durnford's Horse, at the southern end were now drawing the Zulus down the southern nek in very large numbers. Those to the north retired to a crest which joins Isandlwana to the Ingutu. Leaving the horses well sheltered here, they held this crest splendidly, keeping up a galling fire which, with that of the White Mounted Force on the right, checked what was at first a very determined advance in the direction of the camp; and, instead of coming on, they passed the northernmost end of Ingutu. The artillery threw about 25 shots from different parts of the field during the battle. Four of these were very effective each tearing up what appeared to be an acre of ground in the enemy's masses. One of the guns, however, always appeared to shoot high whilst one shell burst half way, nearly over our foot native contingent. Durnford's Horse now appeared to the right of the conical hill, keeping up a steady fire and retreating parallel to the road to Mangeni Valley. A much larger force of Zulus now confronted them than we had yet seen, showing that the enemy had large accessions to his strength from the hidden end of Ingutu behind the conical hill."

Brickhill continues: "The mounted white force now went down to their assistance and these together held the plains so determinedly that the Zulu lines actually swerved once, and sought to mass together under cover of a kraal. A well-placed shot from one of the field pieces caused considerable havoc and scattered them from there. A general forward movement was now made by the enemy from the kraal just named, right away from the northern nek. This was opposed by the two guns and the infantry alone. The Native Contingent had left and passed through the camp; one determination seemed settled on them all: to escape. I could see nothing of the details of the infantry fighting because of the low lying land, but if the increasing gun roll kept up was any indication at all, the enemy's losses must have been terrible indeed. Our mounted force was now compelled to retire to the gulley. The Zulu left horn had extended two miles on the road to Mangeni Valley. They did not come on in lines, but evenly distributed. Nowhere could you catch three men well together and rarely two. In some places their front was a third of a mile in advance of their rear. This gulley the mounted forces held most tenaciously, every shot appearing to take effect, so much so that, with the havoc caused by the shell thrown in the kraal before mentioned, a thousand Zulu dead must have lain between the conical hill and the gulley. The leading Zulus finding that they were being mown down so terrible, threw themselves flat upon the ground to wait for others to come up, when up they jumped and came on again. One of Durnford's Horse now brought up a wounded companion sitting on the horse behind him. Our mounted men now turned to their horses. The Zulus took advantage of this slight break, and pushed across the gulley sharply, whilst the Zulu left horn drew in slightly towards the camp. A simultaneous forward movement was made by all the Zulus, and many of our mounted men who had ridden in for ammunition were closely followed in by them. Troops of all descriptions were now streaming through the various camps towards the Rorke's Drift nek. Simultaneously with this, the only body of soldiers yet visible rose from firing their last shot and joined me in the general flight. Panic was everywhere and no officer to guide, no shelter to fall back to. The only attempt at a stand that I know of, was made by the few that followed the Quartermaster and the Basutos, who had a narrow escape of being cut off at the crest, but who came through past the General's tent shouting to each other and keeping up their fire from a few rocks under Isandhlwana. The Zulus, for the last 300 yards, did not fire 25 shots but came on with a steady determination of walking down the camp by force of numbers.

Brickhill says : "There were thirty Zulus to every British soldier. At 120 yards distance they raised the cry "Usutu!", the name of Cetswayo's army which overthrew the Izigove under his brother, Umbulazi, in the fight for supremacy in 1856. The cry then was"Minizeld Usutu!" (The Usutu has swallowed up, or overwhelmed.). Since then, all Cetswayo's army goes by this name. They now came on with an overwhelming rush. I went back to the 1/24th (1st Battalion, 24th Foot Regiment, the South Wales Borderers) camp to see if I could find my companion, but could not. So, seeing that the Zulus were already stabbing in this camp, as well as the others, I joined the fugitives retreating over the nek, on reaching which I found all communication by the road we had come along cut off by several lines of Zulus running across. They had come along behind Isandlwana and thus intercepted our retreat. The Zulus' left horn had now come over the ridge south of Stony Kopje. They could have completed the circle, but preferred,I think, leaving this gap so that they might attack us in our flight and bring us to bay. The Isandlwana horn edged away more and more to the left and these two kept up a constant cross fire on us. Our flight I shall never forget: no path, no track and boulders everywhere. On were we borne; now into some dry torrent bed; now wending our way amongst some trees of stunted growth so that unless you made the best use of your eyes you were in constant danger of colliding with trees or finding yourself unhorsed at the bottom of the ravine. Our way was strewn with shields, assegais blankets, hats, clothing of all descriptions, guns ammunition belts and saddles which horses had managed to kick off, revolvers and belts, and I know not what else. Our stampede was composed of mules with and without pack saddles, oxen and horses in all sorts of equipment, and fleeing men all strangely intermingled; man and beast all apparently impressed with the danger which surrounded us. One riderless horse came alongside of me and I caught it and handed it to a poor soldier who was struggling along on foot. But he had scarcely mounted it before he was knocked off by a Zulu bullet. Whilst descending into the deep bed of the torrent, I saw Lieutenants Melville and Coghill and Mr Foley about 200 yards ahead, only more to the right. A stream of Zulus was fast pressing them down towards the course we were on. Scrambling over the rocky bed as best we could, we came up the hill on this side fully exposed to the enemy's fire. We here came to an abrupt halt by reason of a huge chasm of gulley which opened to view just in front of our horses. There was nothing for it but to turn sharply round and follow the course of the gulley down in the hope of finding a crossing somewhere. The constant (sound) of the Zulu bullets made one's ears tingle, and one of the mounted infantry, impatient with our Indian file, put his horse at the gully. It was a noble looking grey but the horse fell far short and the rider fell crushed twelve feet below. I have little doubt both horse and rider had found their grave. We found a crossing to the gully, but so steep that coming out on the far side I placed my arms round the horse's neck and my head as far forward as possible. Even, it will ever seem a puzzle how the horses got out without falling backwards. A little further I found Mr Melville carrying the colours. Turning to me, he asked,"Mr Brickhill, have you seen anything of my sword back there?" After glancing back upon our path for his satisfaction, I replied that I had not. He must have lost it before he joined us. Going down the Blackwater River, we had some very bad country, so bad, that we got off and led our horses. We were compelled to take a narrow pass, the fleeing party all converging at this point. Seeing the danger of Mr. Melville's position (for there was a steep precipice on his immediate left), I backed my horse and kept back others as well as I could. It was then that I became aware that Mr. Coghill was just behind, as he shouted "Get on your horse there, Mr Brickhill. This is no time for leaving a horse. Get on your horses you fellows in front." Someone near him said, "You get off yours.This is no place to be riding one!" I did not then know that he suffered from an injured knee and could not walk. As we shot down into the bed of the Blackwater, we had to slither down a steep bank of 8 or 9 feet. The impetus of Mr. Melville's horse had carried him under a tree, a large branch of which caught his right shoulder and nearly unhorsed him. I was able to catch the back swing of the branch, though it tore my coat well down. Rising to the far side, we were again exposed to the full fire of the enemy, still in hot pursuit. Crossing a little ridge, we came across a grass-covered bog. This scattered our party, each one feeling his own way out. My horse was now fagged. As I spurred him, he reared and my spectacles fell off. I peered down into the green grass to try and catch some reflection of them, but the whizz of a Zulu bullet reminded me that time was precious, so on I sped.   Reaching the Buffalo we found it rolling high. No time for choosing the best crossing time then there were the Zulus in running lines making for the stiller water higher up. My horse plunged in swimming at once but had scarcely gone six yards before he stumbled over large obstruction and nearly fell into the rushing stream beyond. I clutched his mane and guided the rein with great care yet four times I thought all was lost. Not ten yards below was a waterfall, in the pool of which three riderless horses were swimming around."
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 9:40 pm

Quote :
Lots of people's timings are wrong, look at Erksine's
That's 2
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1997
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 9:53 pm

He was simply an example.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 9:55 pm

We could debate this forever, but we must take primary sources as they are written.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1997
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 9:59 pm

I see no problem there.



Cheers
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1997
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 10:05 pm

Zulus come in around 9am. They meet brickhill, hand in there cattle, find the HQ tent, from there to Durnford.

That would have taken a lot of time, given how big the camp was.
Back to top Go down
John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 57
Location : UK

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptySun Jul 08, 2012 11:20 pm

Cattle, you mean rifles.

Brickhill seems to beef up His meeting with Durnford he makes a point of stating he had only met once him 12 months prior, and he got the opinion Durnford wanted him, with him. Perhaps he saw Durnford as is hero and used the white flag Sarario to get across Durnford didn't let spies come and go as some must have thought.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1997
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 7:45 am

John



If anyone let spies in it was Chelmsford the previous day, he told them to come back the next day with rifles
to surrender, so it wasn't durnford who let them in it was Chelsmford. The Zulus weren't from the army, they
were Gamada's men who had wanted to surrender for some time. They left cattle when they first entered, when
they left with picked them up.

They weren't spies, there was also no need for them.



Last edited by Drummer Boy 14 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 57
Location : UK

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 7:56 am

And you are mis-understanding my post. There were no cattle on he 22nd they just brought guns. I was merely pointing out that Brickhill beefed up his meeting with Durnford. As he wrote it.
Back to top Go down
impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 8:03 am

I take it "Brickhill" made 2 statements or accounts. The one posted by LH as more added. And doesn't mention the white flag and Zulu issue.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1997
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 8:09 am

The one posted by LH starts with the Zulu's attacking, not what happened in the morning.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7488
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 8:17 am

Littlehand
Unfortunatly the whole battle and build up is built largely through minutae and conjecture. Times are off by large amounts. Even the positions of troops are subject to scrutiny.
Most surviving statements differ to one degree or another, look at the various times Durnfords arrival is reported
Brickhill at 10.30
Stafford at 9.30
Macphail at 9.00
Cochrane and Essex at 10.00
Smith Dorean at 8.00
Its hardly surprising really that the survivors differ on many points, the rush of the day, all sorts of things happening simultaneously the battle itself and the terrible ordeal of riding for their lives. A certain amount of stress there.

If we are to dismiss every report because of these minor and explainable differences we the battle for isandlwana would be reduced to total fiction.

At times the statements do need looking at carefully and assumptions made. Nothing wrong with that providing the assumptions are just that and not passed down as fact, ala Morris and to a degree Snook.

Cart Blanch dismissal of a statement, and a really important one because it contains an issue that doesnt fit isnt an option. Read Smith Doreans account, its full of errors, but its also full of fact. Surely then the roll of a historian is to try and read 'between the lines' and establish a relative truth?

Cheers
Back to top Go down
24th

24th

Posts : 1849
Join date : 2009-03-25

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 8:42 am

Where does Brickhill say at 10.30
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7488
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 8:46 am

24th
Brickhills statement Page 2, para 2:

Regards
Back to top Go down
impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 9:12 am

How. If he spoke to Durnford between 8am-9am
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7488
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 9:14 am

impi
That is the subject of the debate over the last three pages.

Regards
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7488
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 10:51 am

Google Earth

Google have now photographed the main Nqutu Road.
Go to 28.18'46.69 South 30.43'01.06 East.
That puts you on the R68 road at the intersection of the road to iSandlwana. Look to the South..ish along the road the area to your right is the area of 'X'. Move 100 metres along the road to the North ...ish and you are amongst the impi. The road has changed that section of the topography quite a lot. But if you again look to the left you will see the rise that is point 'X'
iSandlwana is over the far hills and out of sight but that whole expanse of ground in front of you is the ground the impi advanced over pushing raw and Roberts back.
Turn through 180degrees the hill behind you is Mabaso the other side of Mabaso is the Ngwebeni valley. Carry on 'driving up the road, on your right is a small white pick up, look behind the pickup and you will see some cliffs starting to apear, that is Ngwebeni Valley.
Turn around and hed back down the road, passed the isandlwana sign post, through the cuttings, probably for aroung 600-700 metres and on your right is the Quabe Valley,you will recognise it because of the small dam with the village next to it, the point that Durnford reached is around a kilometer down the valley. Turn through 180degrees looking over the other side of the road and you will see the Quabe valley meeting up with the Ngwebeni Valley, the traditional place the impi slept at on the night of the 21st.
The mountains right at the end are the Hlazakazi and Malakatha hills that Chelmsford took the other half of the column to.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Ray63

Ray63

Posts : 708
Join date : 2012-05-05

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 4:47 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Give the same opinion as TMFH
Back to top Go down
impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Jul 09, 2012 9:35 pm

New to Google Earth

Where do you put this...

Quote :
Go to 28.18'46.69 South 30.43'01.06 East
.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 12:52 pm

Go to the "View" option in the top toolbar. Press "Grid" and the lines of latitude and longitude appear. The grid reference is at the bottom of the screen and changes as you move the cursor over the map with the mouse.
Rusteze
Back to top Go down
24th

24th

Posts : 1849
Join date : 2009-03-25

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 1:01 pm

I did use Google Earth, but it kept freezing. Is this a common occurance.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10077
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: The missing five hours    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 1:39 pm

I gave up , NFI !!!!!. Technology minded I'm not . May get the kids to show me how it works !.
Cheers 90th. Suspect
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 4:01 pm

These new pictures on Google Earth are remarkable. I doubt I shall ever get to South Africa but this is certainly the next best thing. The great advantage of having someone who knows the ground and can name the various locations (many thanks Springbok9) is that you can then easily mark them on your own screen and build a detailed picture of events (including the alternative locations discussed here). It is then so much easier to follow the arguments and even see some of the "hidden" ground.

Google Earth works superbly on my Mac - I think those of you who are having trouble grappling with it should persevere. Sometimes technology is a wondrous thing, you can even drive past Rorke's Drift and see all the surrounding country!

Great if the locals could point out even more of the local features for us.

Rusteze
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2583
Join date : 2009-04-24

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 4:38 pm

I will be downloading GE tonight, if I have any problems, I'm hoping you guys can help out.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7488
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue Jul 10, 2012 5:17 pm

rusteze

Well done, its brilliant. Tomorrow I will post some directions to RD from there you can 'drive' up Nostrop pass to Helpmakaar. The old camp site is visible from the road.
Also there is a route that goes over the mountain to the Chelmsford pinik site.

Stick with it guys, get a 6 year old to help............I did, thank God for grandchildren.

Good Luck
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224

Posts : 2102
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 53
Location : North London

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyFri Jul 13, 2012 5:02 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Littlehand
Unfortunatly the whole battle and build up is built largely through minutae and conjecture. Times are off by large amounts. Even the positions of troops are subject to scrutiny.
Most surviving statements differ to one degree or another, look at the various times Durnfords arrival is reported
Brickhill at 10.30
Stafford at 9.30
Macphail at 9.00
Cochrane and Essex at 10.00
Smith Dorean at 8.00
Its hardly surprising really that the survivors differ on many points, the rush of the day, all sorts of things happening simultaneously the battle itself and the terrible ordeal of riding for their lives. A certain amount of stress there.

If we are to dismiss every report because of these minor and explainable differences we the battle for isandlwana would be reduced to total fiction.

At times the statements do need looking at carefully and assumptions made. Nothing wrong with that providing the assumptions are just that and not passed down as fact, ala Morris and to a degree Snook.

Cart Blanch dismissal of a statement, and a really important one because it contains an issue that doesnt fit isnt an option. Read Smith Doreans account, its full of errors, but its also full of fact. Surely then the roll of a historian is to try and read 'between the lines' and establish a relative truth?

Cheers

Well said.
Simple as that.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyFri Jul 13, 2012 5:48 pm

Quote :
" Surely then the roll of a historian is to try and read 'between the lines' and establish a relative truth?"

Quite agree, but here's where the problem lies, to many Historians have read between the lines, and all come up with a different version of events, some say there was ammuntion problem,some say there wasn't, some say Melville was order to save the colours, some say he just left. Some say Durnford wasn't in commard, some say he wasn't ect. Reading between the lines distorts the truth. Is ashame that " Morris's work" is seen a fiction, yet his work was the basis of where historians are today.
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224

Posts : 2102
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 53
Location : North London

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyFri Jul 13, 2012 6:19 pm

littlehand wrote:
Quote :
" Surely then the roll of a historian is to try and read 'between the lines' and establish a relative truth?"

Quite agree, but here's where the problem lies, to many Historians have read between the lines, and all come up with a different version of events, some say there was ammuntion problem,some say there wasn't, some say Melville was order to save the colours, some say he just left. Some say Durnford wasn't in commard, some say he wasn't ect. Reading between the lines distorts the truth. Is ashame that " Morris's work" is seen a fiction, yet his work was the basis of where historians are today.

I think we have to accept, that unless new documentation is discovered, the "truth" will never be known. However, the truth, is in there somewhere among the confusion. Science is about truth, history is about interpretation.
The truth is probably somewhere in between, as anyone who is used to resolving disputes and hearing two sides to a story will know, from a crown court judge to a parent sorting out an argument between their kids..
There was an ammunition shortage in some areas, but not others.
Someone suggested to Melville that he should save the colours, he was more than happy to oblige at that point.
Durnford and Pulleine themselves were probably not sure who was in command, or, what they decided was not communicated 100% effectively to all.
I reckon we should not accept some statements and dismiss others (in the same way that Constantine selected some gospels to include in the Bible, but dismissed others that didn't suit his viewpoint, Peter and Mary Magdalene's, two of Jesus' closest disciples among those dismissed).
We need to accept all primary sources, unless there is reason to suspect them, and be tolerant of the fact that there will be errors in those statements, born of innocent confusion or uncertainty.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyFri Jul 13, 2012 6:41 pm

Quote :
There was an ammunition shortage in some areas, but not others.

Happy with this, because it acknowledges an ammunition problem did exsist.
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224

Posts : 2102
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 53
Location : North London

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyFri Jul 13, 2012 7:22 pm

Shocked Am I the new authority on here LH?
Hang on a minute, just making a suggestion!
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyFri Jul 13, 2012 7:27 pm

:lol: I know, but it was the right suggestion in my eyes. And you must have thought about it, to write it.
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224

Posts : 2102
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 53
Location : North London

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Dec 10, 2012 5:57 pm

I think it is comical that anyone thinks that :

1. Durnford, by sending reconnaissance scouts, was somehow at fault. This was prudent and quite the correct thing to do. No force can gather too much intelligence, or seek to gather it. This was correct practice, always has been always will be.
2. Raw precipitated the whole battle a day early. It is clear to me that the Zulus were manoeuvring to attack when Raw came upon them. It didn't help that he fired on them, but the Zulus were on the point of attacking anyway. They saw the opportunity, Chelmsford leaving the camp in the early hours, and they took it!
Back to top Go down
Ulundi

Ulundi

Posts : 558
Join date : 2012-05-05

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Dec 10, 2012 6:06 pm

Totally agree with no2

Quote :
No force can gather too much intelligence, or seek to gather it.

Could understand this, if reports hadn't been coming in for most of the morning. There was no need to doubt the reports. Would have been more prudent to start putting things in place. Durnford should have placed himself in the command Center at the camp.
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224

Posts : 2102
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 53
Location : North London

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Dec 10, 2012 6:11 pm

Fair comment Ulundi.
One can only assume that Durnford wanted to verify the reports for himself. And why shouldn't he?
If I were Durnford, I would have been very angry at Raw for firing upon the Zulu. (I'd have shot him) Salute
Back to top Go down
Ulundi

Ulundi

Posts : 558
Join date : 2012-05-05

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Dec 10, 2012 6:14 pm

Quote :
If I were Durnford, I would have been very angry at Raw for firing upon the Zulu
Good point, but I think, the Zulus were moving prior to Raw finding them. He may not have had any choice but to fire, Zulu accounts state they were fired upon. A bit of he said, she said.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1997
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Dec 10, 2012 8:59 pm

Ulundi

The reports were coming in of a force of at the most 7,000 Zulus moving around the hills, not the main army !!!!
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2583
Join date : 2009-04-24

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Dec 10, 2012 9:02 pm

Quote :
not the main army !!!!
DB Where does he mention the main army!!!
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224

Posts : 2102
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 53
Location : North London

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Dec 10, 2012 9:31 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Quote :
not the main army !!!!
DB Where does he mention the main army!!!

Yeah!!!
Back to top Go down
John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 57
Location : UK

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Dec 10, 2012 10:17 pm

Quote :
ulundi
Good point, but I think, the Zulus were moving prior to Raw finding them. He may not have had any choice but to fire, Zulu accounts state they were fired upon. A bit of he said, she said.

DB. I'm confused. Where does he mention the " Main Army"
Back to top Go down
Dave

Dave

Posts : 1605
Join date : 2009-09-21

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyMon Dec 10, 2012 11:52 pm

Tasker. "Quote:
"
Quote :
If I were Durnford, I would have been very angry at Raw for firing upon the Zulu"

Information received from Umtegolalo, a Zulu well known to Mr. Longeast, Interpreter to the Lieutenant-General, found wounded at Rorke's
Drift on the 23rd January.
   Statement made by Natives regarding the Action of the 22nd January, at the Sandhlwana Hill.

"When, on the morning of the 22nd January the mounted Basutos, under the command of Colonel Durnford, R.E., discovered their position and fired at a portion of the Umcityu Regiment, that regiment immediately sprung up without orders, and charged. It was at once followed by the Nokenke, Inbonambi, and Nkobamakosi Regiments, the Undi Corps holding its ground. Up to this point in the day there had been no fighting.
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: TMFH   The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue Dec 11, 2012 12:48 pm

It is easy to see what DB meant, and I think that you know what he was saying, you are just trying to force him in a corner.

DB did not say that ulundi had said main army, DB was making a comment, not criticizing.
Back to top Go down
impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue Dec 11, 2012 1:21 pm

Martin, no one is trying to force anyone into a corner?

DB Wrote
Quote :
"The reports were coming in of a force of at the most 7,000 Zulus moving around the hills, not the main army !!!!"

Are you able to show where Ulundi mentions the Main Army. Thats all what was being asked. Perhaps DB Read the post wrong!!!
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224

Posts : 2102
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 53
Location : North London

The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 EmptyTue Dec 11, 2012 5:24 pm

Dave wrote:
Tasker. "Quote:
"
Quote :
If I were Durnford, I would have been very angry at Raw for firing upon the Zulu"

Information received from Umtegolalo, a Zulu well known to Mr. Longeast, Interpreter to the Lieutenant-General, found wounded at Rorke's
Drift on the 23rd January.
   Statement made by Natives regarding the Action of the 22nd January, at the Sandhlwana Hill.

"When, on the morning of the 22nd January the mounted Basutos, under the command of Colonel Durnford, R.E., discovered their position and fired at a portion of the Umcityu Regiment, that regiment immediately sprung up without orders, and charged. It was at once followed by the Nokenke, Inbonambi, and Nkobamakosi Regiments, the Undi Corps holding its ground. Up to this point in the day there had been no fighting.

The bit in yellow is my implied point also Dave. They should have observed, given a friendly wave and then casually sauntered off (without opening fire) and taken the news back to the camp.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 9 Empty

Back to top Go down
 
The missing five hours.
Back to top 
Page 9 of 18Go to page : Previous  1 ... 6 ... 8, 9, 10 ... 13 ... 18  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: