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 The Scots in Zululand in 1879.

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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 4:40 pm


good evening


I finished re-painting my 30 figurines of Highlanders of the 91 st Foot and I put red pompoms on Glengarry figurines, topped with.

- Is historic?

I painting my 30 figurines of the Scottish 2 / 21 st Royal Scots Fusiliers and I put the red pompoms on Glengarry figurines, topped with.

- Is historic?

The uniform of the pipers of the 2 / 21 st Royal Scots Fusiliers is described in the Elite / Osprey No. 32, I have a figurine of piper for this battalion, but I want color illustrations of the pipers of this battalion in zululand or second Pedi war to see if I am not mistaken ...

- Is possible?

The 99 th and 90 th Foot had Scottish connections, ...

- Were there any red pompoms on the glengarry of these battalions, although the 90 th Foot glengarry were dark green because it was a light infantry regiment ...

Thank you for helping me to avoid historical errors ...

Cheers

Pascal














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matthew83

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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 7:46 pm

Hi Pascal,

I do not believe the highlanders wore red poms on their glengarry.

Here is a colour plate from reeseartofwars.com (uniforms of the anglo-zulu war1879, british and colonial forces - 42 plates available for $30.




[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]



I can't post more than one as it breaches copyright.

Admin : I hope you don't mind me posting the reeseartofwars bit, it's a stipulation if sharing an image.

Cheers

Matt
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impi

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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 7:50 pm

Matt. As long as you name the source, or even better post a link. At the end of the day it's free advertising for the book.
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tasker224

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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 7:51 pm

Matthew,
the image you have posted shows men wearing tropical helmets, not their glengarries.
i am not an expert on regimental uniforms, but no regiment would have worn hackles or poms on these.
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matthew83

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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 7:58 pm

Tasker, there is a glengarry on the knapsack without a pom.



Cheers

Matt
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littlehand

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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 7:59 pm

Maybe of interest to some. Page 76 an incident with a ship hitting a roman rock, causing the troops to be transferred to another ship. Maybe Tom could sheds some light on this.



Click Here


Last edited by littlehand on Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tasker224

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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 8:01 pm

sorry matt, hadn't noticed. you are quite correct, thanks.
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matthew83

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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 8:20 pm

littlehand wrote:
Maybe of interest to some. Page 76 an incident with a ship hitting a roman rock, causing the troops to be transferred to another ship. Maybe Tom could sheds some light on this.



Click Here


Hi Littlehand, any idea why the roman rocks were so named?, I recall captains essex and gardiner and 14 other officers with 80 nco's arrived for the zulu war on 11th december 1878 on a ship named 'Roman'.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 8:38 pm

Matt. Can't help. I'm hoping Petty Officer Tom can shed some light. Have a look at page 76.
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 8:48 pm

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'The Roman Rocks lighthouse, Simon's Bay, Cape of Good Hope'

Roman Rock reef is part of the Roman Rock reef complex offshore in Simon's Bay on the west side of False Bay. This is an extensive area of granite reef, much of which is inside the Boulders restricted zone of the Table Mountain Marine Protected Area. It id a topographically rugged reef, with exposed rocks and a few other very shallow areas, and extends down to a sand surround. The reef complex has several large reef areas, of which this is the south-westernmost, and a large number of smaller reef sections and isolated rock outcrops. The marine life is quite varied, though echinoderms are dominant, and a moderate variety of reef fish can be seen.

The site is popular when launches are made from the False Bay Yacht Club, as it is conveniently close. The reef is prominently marked by the exposed rocks and the lighthouse — You can't miss it...

Position

S34°10.51’ E018°27.36’

An easy dive site to find as it is marked by the lighthouse of the same name off Simon’s Town Harbour.

This site is in a Marine Protected Area (2004). A permit is required. The site is probably entirely inside the Boulders Restricted Zone.
The Roman, after which the site is named.


Name

There are several places on the South African coast known as "Roman Rock", and Roman Reef, and it is probable that they are all named after the common reef fish, the Roman Chrysoblephus laticeps.

Depth

Maximum depth is on sand at about 18m. The top of the reef breaks the surface in places.
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matthew83

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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 9:12 pm

1879graves,

Many thanks

Matt
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 9:19 pm

Pascal,

I finished re-painting my 30 figurines of Highlanders of the 91 st Foot and I put red pompoms on Glengarry figurines, topped with.
- Is historic? No they should be black!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

91st Wynberg Camp 1880, kwaJimu1879 Collection.


I painting my 30 figurines of the Scottish 2 / 21 st Royal Scots Fusiliers and I put the red pompoms on Glengarry figurines, topped with.
- Is historic? No again, they should be black!


The uniform of the pipers of the 2 / 21 st Royal Scots Fusiliers is described in the Elite / Osprey No. 32, I have a figurine of piper for this battalion, but I want color illustrations of the pipers of this battalion in zululand or second Pedi war to see if I am not mistaken ...
- Is possible? The only illustrations I have of the Pipers in colour are after the campaign, but it might help.

The 99 th and 90 th Foot had Scottish connections, ...

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99th Cape Town, 1880, kwaJimu1879 Collection
- Were there any red pompoms on the glengarry of these battalions, although the 90 th Foot glengarry were dark green because it was a light infantry regiment ... Again, black, and the 90th's glengarry was dark blue, not green.


I will copy some other material for you and post that well in the near future!

kwaJimu1879
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matthew83

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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 9:30 pm

Kwajimu,

I notice there are plumes on the glengarries, similar to the modern fusilier berets, can I also see poms?, if so was there a standard glengarry attachment at the time of the zulu war or were both worn?

Cheers

Matt
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PostSubject: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 7:03 am

Hi all

Stuart Reid in his book "Queen Victoria's Highlanders" shows only red pompom on all glengarry After 1874, sometimes they are tiny, but visible ...

Ian Knight in his book - British Forces in Zululand 1879 - "Two of the battalions which fought in zululand were light infantry - the 1/13 th and 90th - but their uniform were the same as the line regiment 'except in the area discussed ,they also had green glengarries rather the line 's blue".

Stuart Reid and Ian Knight does not know what they are talking about ???

Cheers

Pascal
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 8:54 am

Pascal,

I think in Ian Knight's case he is confusing it was the officers' peaked Forage-Cap, which is described in Dress Regulations for 1874 as:

Quote :
Dark green cloth, with a scarlet cloth band in the regiments styled "Royal"; in the 71st a welt of red cloth round the crown. A gold embroided bugle, or horn, on the band, with the number of the regiment in the middle. The 13th wear a mural crown and the word "Jellalabad," in glit metal, above the bugle.

I allowed the text to run on as it describes the 13th's uniform which might also assist you.

From the same work:

Quote :
Glengarry for kilted regiments only in place of the Forage Cap.- Blue blue cloth of pattern similar to that worn by the men. ... Bottom of the cap bound with black silk.

There is no mention of the colour of the tourrie, or pom-pom as you have it being a different colour to other line regiments. I am of the understanding that change took place in 1881. Not having a copy of Stuart Reid's work I can't comment on his findings.

Now just to confuse you further, here is plate from the 21st's regimental history of 1895, depicting two Privates in 1879 wearing the pre-1874 tunics:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Artist - Harry Payne

This from a print I have of Richard Simkin's depiction of the 91st.

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91st Highlanders

I'll post some more on the 21st shortly.

kwaJimu1879
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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 10:05 am

I think it comes to the Scottish Stuart Reid has to know it and why not pompom on GLENGARRY only for Scottish regiments have a connection?

- Red Pompoms for Blue Glengarry only.

- Black Pompom for Dark Green Glengarry.(the pompom, only for the light
infantry regiments with a Scottish connection )

- The dark green and black only wanted to indicate the side of the light
infantry regiments ...

Should contact the illustrators and authors of these books or museums of these regiments ...

Cheers

Pascal well upset ...
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The1stLt

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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 12:56 pm

The following figures and sets are available from Conte Collectable which once again he's provided the collector with outstanding figures........The1stLt

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PostSubject: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 1:30 pm

Hi

Beautiful, but I want the 1 / 56 th scale to play ... On what scale are these dioramas?

No kilts in Zululand, except for the pipers of the 91 st and 2 / 21 st Foot ...

Cheers

Pascal
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 1:54 pm

Lt.,


They are circa Dargai in 1897 rather 1879, hence their Slade-Wallace equipment & Lee-Metford rifles!

kwaJimu1879
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PostSubject: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 3:51 pm

yes it is not even the 92 th Highlanders at Majuba ...

But still not bad ...

Cheers

Pascal
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyMon Dec 26, 2011 11:55 am

Pascal,

Now that Christmas Day has come & gone, here are some more images for you!

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21st Group, pre-1881

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Harry Payne's Battle of Ulundi.

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A slightly blurred image of a 99th Private, pre-1881

All from the kwaJimu1879 Collection.

I have a surprise image of someone I know you like in a kilt, I post that over the next few days!

kwaJimu1879
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Mr M. Cooper

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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: The Scots in zululand in 1879   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyMon Dec 26, 2011 12:35 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that Queen Victoria had been reviewing the troops and saw the Scots wearing the glengarry. She so liked it that she said that all her soldiers should wear it, and all regiments were issued with them. The Scottish regiments wore the diced checkering, others plain, but did they not all have the red toorie (pom/bobble) on top, apart from the light infantry regiments?

When folded for carrying on the valise equipment, the toorie would be out of sight, being inside the fold.

I still have a glengarry which I was given many years ago by a Scottish friend of mine, the glen is plain (no dicing), and in dark blue, it has the red toorie on it, and I have attached a 24th foot (2nd Warwickshire) regiment glengarry badge on it, and it looks just fine.
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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyMon Dec 26, 2011 1:46 pm

I think the solution is for the glengarry in the zulu war :

1 - Blue glengarry without pompom for all not Scottish line infantry regiment ...(eg : 2/3 rd Foot - 2/4 th Foot - 1st and 2/ 24 th Foot - 57 th Foot - 58 th Foot - 80 th Foot - 88 th Foot and 94 th Foot )

2 - Dark green glengarry without pompom for all not Scottish light infantry regiment ...(eg : 1/13 th Foot )

2 - Blue Glengarry with red pompom and a diced band for all scotish line infantry regiments (eg : 2/21 st Foot and 91 st Foot )

3 - Blue Glengarry with red pompom and a diced band for all line infantry regiments with a scotish connection ( eg : 99 th Foot )

4 - Dark green Glengarry with black pompom and without a diced band for all light infantry regiments with a scotish connection ( eg : 90 th Foot )

5 - Dark green Glengarry without pompom for all rifles regiments ( eg : 3/60 th Rifles )

Cheers

Pascal
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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The Scots in Zululand in 1879. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyMon Dec 26, 2011 5:45 pm

Pascal,

I'll agree to differ with you over the glengarry and the touries!

Here's a nice photograph of a young man, who I know you like, in a kilt!

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Which Regiment is this? kwaJimu1879 Collection.

kwaJimu1879
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: The Scots in zululand in 1879   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyMon Dec 26, 2011 5:59 pm

Hi kwajimu1879

Is this the Prince when he was a very young lad?
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyMon Dec 26, 2011 6:13 pm

Mr. Cooper,

It is indeed the Prince Imperial aged 4 years of age.

Here he is weeks before his death. I've reproduced it in a large format for Pascal's dart-board!

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H.I.H. the Prince Imperial, 1879. kwaJimu1879 Collection.
kwaJimu1879
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: The Scots in zululand in 1879   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyMon Dec 26, 2011 6:56 pm

Thanks jimu, I thought it might be the Prince.

I have been trying to find anything out about the glens, it appears that many were in black and also with a black toorie. If I recall correctly, the film Zulu Dawn showed some men wearing them, and they did appear to be black with a black toorie, but you can't always go by what the films show (or say for that matter). I found a picture of a re-enactor wearing an officers blue patrol jacket, with a dark blue glengarry, and with a red toorie on the crown, I wonder if he should be wearing a black one with a black toorie?

Another thing I have been wondering about is this, could the dark blue glen's with red toories have been worn by regiments with 'Royal' in their title, while other regiments wore the plain black with black toories, and Scottish regiments worn the diced glen's? It all gets a bit confusing with the different dicing and toories for the Scottish regiments, but at least after 1900 or so, it was just the Scots that wore them.

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PostSubject: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyTue Dec 27, 2011 7:40 am

Hi kwajimu1879,

What horror kwajimu1879,
your photo is this vile Bonaparte, whose brave Zulus have gotten rid France ...Never again, Have mercy on me kwajimu1879.

Cheer

Pascal

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PostSubject: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyTue Dec 27, 2011 7:43 am

Pity, stop to throw me pictures of this type that I see the alarm clock...
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PostSubject: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyTue Dec 27, 2011 7:59 am

Bonjour Monsieur Cooper


The pompoms are reserved to the Scottish regiments or regiments with a Scottish connection and glengarry are still blue, except for the light infantry and rifles,who have dark green glengarry...

The 90 th Foot has pompoms, because it has a Scottish connection and they are black because it's light infantry, the color black is in connection with the light infantry as dark green...


Never rely on movies ect ... Even the color illustrations are not reliable in most cases ...

All the long months that are coming you will see my painted figures on this forum and this will give you an idea of ​​what was in uniform ...

Cheers

Pascal



































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PostSubject: Re: The Scots in Zululand in 1879.   The Scots in Zululand in 1879. EmptyTue Dec 27, 2011 6:34 pm

littlehand,

I just got around to reading this thread.

Here is what I have on the wreck of the hired transport “City of Paris.” The ship ran aground, on Roman Rocks, while entering Simon’s Bay on 23 Mar 1879. Ship was able to eventually proceed on to Simon’s Bay. The captain of “City of Paris” was prepared to take the 21st the remainder of the way to Natal. However, Admiral Sullivan “could not for one moment allow so large a number of Her Majesty's troops to run so great a risk,” and directed the senior officer at Simon’s Bay, Captain Adeane, to order HMS Tamar, which was at Table Bay on her way back to England, to return to Simon’s Bay, where the 21st (25 officers and 906 men) were transferred to HMS Tamar for transport to Natal, arriving 31 March.

An inquiry was held at Simon’s Bay on 25 March, 1879. The findings were that the wreck was due to an error of judgment on the part of the master, who was severely censured.

HMS Tamar, by the way, had recently brought the 57th from Ceylon to Natal; and on arriving at Durban on 11 March, disembarked 21 officer and 788 men.

After disembarking the 21st at Durban, “Tamar” was once more on her way back to England, when she was sent back to Simon’s Bay to pick up the men from the wreck of the hired transport “Clyde,” which wrecked at Dyer‘s Island on 3 April. There she took on board the replacements for the 1 Battalion of the 24th, which numbered 5 officers and 526 men, and disembarked them at Durban on 11 April.

In all, HMS Tamar, Captain William H. Liddell, brought 51 officers and 2,220 men to Durban between 11 March and 11 April, 1879.

matthew83,

Sorry, I don’t know the origin of the name “Roman” rocks. I read somewhere that they may have been named after a local species of fish.


Petty Officer Tom
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