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 Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana

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ciscokid



Posts : 187
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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptySun Jan 22, 2012 2:48 pm

Hi

Does anyone have a link to the Voorlooper's statements that hid at the battle? I didn't realise anyone made it out alive until I read HCMDB.

cheers
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Mr M. Cooper

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Voorlooper - that hid at Isandlwana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptySun Jan 22, 2012 4:44 pm

Hi cisco

I can't recall reading anything about someone hiding at Isandlwana, but I have heard the rumour that someone hid in a cave at Rorke's Drift? So if anyone does have a link to this Voorloopers statement, it would be very interesting to read about this.

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ciscokid



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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptySun Jan 22, 2012 5:28 pm

HCMDB p281 "A black wagon driver concealed himself high up on Isandlawana, where he would remain undected and in due course make his escape"

HCMDB p291 "the voorlooper hidden on Isandlwana later said that he forty such wagons being loaded with the wounded and maimed"

So, anyone know when he made his escape? Was it the next morning?

cheers
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptySun Jan 22, 2012 6:30 pm

Hi Cisco

I did ask around when i read that and no one else seemed to know anything about it.



Cheers


Last edited by Drummer Boy 14 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptySun Jan 22, 2012 8:29 pm

Quote :
HCMDB p281 "A black wagon driver concealed himself high up on Isandlawana, where he would remain undected and in due course make his escape"

HCMDB p291 "the voorlooper hidden on Isandlwana later said that he forty such wagons being loaded with the wounded and maimed"


Didn't happen. Fiction!!!!!
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90th

90th

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlwana .   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptySun Jan 22, 2012 9:13 pm

Hi DB14 .
I think I posted this info when this was last mentioned .Julian Whybra's ' Englands Son's ' page 59 , gives sources of where
you can find surviving African accounts of those who hid and made their escape after the battle .
cheers 90th. Salute
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barry

barry

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Voorloper hidden at Isandhlwana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Jan 23, 2012 4:36 am


Dear All,

There seems to be more confusion here,
A voorlooper is NOT a wagon driver. For an ox wagon to move it needs a driver and a voerlooper.
The voerloper is the person who walks in front of the wagon leading the oxen. This role is normally filled by a youngster.
Further, where were the maimed and wounded being taken to?.

regards

barry

PS ; the word "voerlooper" is derived from the Dutch language, ie voer = in front, looper = walker


Last edited by barry on Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brett Hendey

Brett Hendey

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Jan 23, 2012 5:54 am

I thought all the oxen were killed in the battle and that the abandoned wagons were recovered by the British several months later.

Brett
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Guest
Guest



Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Jan 23, 2012 8:10 am

Hi

So to make, how many civilians at Isandhlwana? And they were armed ...?

Cheers

Pascal
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barry

barry

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Civilans at Isandlwana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Jan 23, 2012 8:57 am


Bonjour Pascal,
It is well documented that the British forces in the AZW, both Imperial and Colonial used many external contractors to run their war machine. Foremost amongst these were the civilian transport riders, who hired themselves out to the military for the carriage of goods. A lot of these were Boers who correctly saw a fast buck to be made. They had a "crew" on each wagon, ie a voerloper and another general helper as well as the wagon driver. I have not read anywhere that they were armed , but I will lay big bets that they were. It was a good practise of the times for all transport riders in general and Boers in particular to be armed, to the teeth, at all times.
Other contractors were forage and meal suppliers, meat supplies, and most importantly "grog" merchants, one of whom it is recorderd, Chelmsford chased away from his camp threatening to tip all of the precious stuff into the Buffalo, if he did not remove himself forthwith.
The men were very dissapointed.

regards

barry


Last edited by barry on Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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90th

90th

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlwana .   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Jan 23, 2012 11:38 am

Hi Brett.
As far as I'm aware you are correct , all the animals and I mean all were killed . Couple of dogs I know of got back to RD ,
others escaped but they all turned Feral after a while in the scrub with no food etc etc . Possibly an ox here and there or a donkey may have survived if they managed to get away from the camp . I'm thinking the post is or has a typo regarding the
forty wagons , I have heard the zulu's used the wagons for the removal of bodies etc etc , makes sense as when the British went
back I'm not sure how many wagons they took back with them , but there were many missing that were there on the day of the
battle . I'm thinking there were likely to be over 120 wagons or similar there on the morning of the battle , we know this because
Chelmesford used this as one of his reasons not to Laager , as he wanted to send the wagons back to RD very early in the morning to bring up supplies . I'm not home so I dont have any books with me .
Cheers 90th. You need to study mo .
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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Jan 23, 2012 3:54 pm

Barry & Garry

Civilians at Isandhlwana are not armed and all killed ?

The number of civilians at Isandhlwana is unknow ?

Number of whites ? 120 ?

Number of black ? 240?

For 120 wagons ?

In zulu Dawn ,they are two ???

Cheers

Pascal
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barry

barry

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Civilians at Isandlwana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Jan 23, 2012 4:09 pm



Hi Pascal,
There were clearly more than two civilians at Isandlwana. This is where the film/s depart from reality in not portraying the real events. Somewhere in my records I have the actual numbers and will dig these out for you.

regards


barry
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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Jan 23, 2012 5:03 pm

Bonsoir Barry

In my view all white civilians were armed, have fought, at least to defend themselves, but they speak so as not to increase the number of defenders ...

Cheers

Pascal
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tasker224

tasker224

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Jan 23, 2012 7:05 pm

ciscokid wrote:
HCMDB p281 "A black wagon driver concealed himself high up on Isandlawana, where he would remain undected and in due course make his escape"

HCMDB p291 "the voorlooper hidden on Isandlwana later said that he forty such wagons being loaded with the wounded and maimed"

So, anyone know when he made his escape? Was it the next morning?

cheers

Cisco, I doubt any official records of local, black, casual labour would have been kept in any form whatsoever.
If the sources are not quoted in HCMDB, try PMing Mike on the victorianwars forum.
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90th

90th

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlwana .   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyTue Jan 24, 2012 12:14 am

Hi All.
Tasker , agreed , we will never ever know how many Civilians or Black Transport Workers were in the camp , I'm sure the
Civilians would be armed in way or another , the Black Workers , I'd say no . No records were probably kept and if they were
they would be long long gone . You need to study mo .
cheers 90th. Suspect
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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyTue Jan 24, 2012 8:18 am

Hi all

If you know the number of wagons in the camp, there may be a fairly close to the number of civilians ...

And white civilians were armed, forcing ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyFri Apr 13, 2012 9:42 pm

Quote :
Didn't happen. Fiction!!!!!

Pretty sure Captain Symonds intervied a naitve that hid among the
rocks to survivie. So not fiction.
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90th

90th

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandhlwautf.   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyFri Apr 13, 2012 9:56 pm

Hi DB .
As I said in one of my earlier posts Julian is the person you need to speak to about this matter , unless of course you have his
book , ' England's Sons ' . PM Julian he'll help you out .
cheers 90th. Salute
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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptySat Apr 14, 2012 6:33 am

Hi all

Yes all is in the book , ' England's Sons ' .

Salute

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptySun Apr 15, 2012 4:44 pm

Reading Julians book there seem to be a few who hid.




Cheers
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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptySun Apr 15, 2012 5:18 pm

What does that mean that ?
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptySun Apr 15, 2012 5:28 pm

It means more then one Native hid at Isandlwana.



Cheers
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90th

90th

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandhlwautf.   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Apr 16, 2012 12:01 am

Hi All .
It may be an A4 Paper sized , plastic bound booklet etc , but it's worth every cent !. If it doesnt tell you what you want to know , he at least tells you where you can find it . I've used mine many many times . It's very well researched , no denying that !.
cheers 90th. You need to study mo You need to study mo
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ymob

ymob

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Apr 16, 2012 12:14 pm

90th wrote:
Hi All .
It may be an A4 Paper sized , plastic bound booklet etc , but it's worth every cent !. If it doesnt tell you what you want to know , he at least tells you where you can find it . I've used mine many many times . It's very well researched , no denying that !.
cheers 90th. You need to study mo You need to study mo

Hi all,

Totally agree.
A very good book - meticulous research with sources.
A fundamental and indispensable book.

regards

Ymob
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http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Apr 16, 2012 12:45 pm

The best of the best for the roll of the british troops at isandhlwana and RD...
Salute

Pascal
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ADMIN

ADMIN

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyMon Apr 16, 2012 3:45 pm

Copyright discussion split from this discussion. Please stay on topic.
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thinredlineMOD

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Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyTue Apr 17, 2012 3:11 am

From Colenso's History of the Zulu War (p. 306)
Quote :
"That life might exist without its being known to the returning column is proved by the fact that a native groom lay for dead, although unwounded, in the camp throughout the night.
The man had feigned death when the camp was taken, and did not dare to move on the return of the General’s party, lest he should be taken by them for a Zulu, and should share the fate of the few actual Zulus found intoxicated beneath the waggons, and bayoneted by our soldiers. He crept out in the morning, and followed the retreating column to Rorke’s Drift at a distance, meeting on the way with narrow escapes of losing his life from both friend and foe."
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ciscokid



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PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyTue Apr 17, 2012 7:59 pm

thinredlineMOD wrote:
From Colenso's History of the Zulu War (p. 306)
Quote :
"That life might exist without its being known to the returning column is proved by the fact that a native groom lay for dead, although unwounded, in the camp throughout the night.
The man had feigned death when the camp was taken, and did not dare to move on the return of the General’s party, lest he should be taken by them for a Zulu, and should share the fate of the few actual Zulus found intoxicated beneath the waggons, and bayoneted by our soldiers. He crept out in the morning, and followed the retreating column to Rorke’s Drift at a distance, meeting on the way with narrow escapes of losing his life from both friend and foe."

Thanks mate - I'm guessing he got missed as he wasn't a red coat, or they presumed that he was a Zulu....
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thinredlineMOD

thinredlineMOD

Posts : 57
Join date : 2012-04-12

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PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyWed Apr 18, 2012 1:57 pm

You're welcome mate. He must've found a secluded spot since the Zulus in their frenzy stabbed literally everything they came across. No matter if alive, already dead or just dead objects like tin cans.
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littlehand

littlehand

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Age : 52
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyWed Apr 18, 2012 8:17 pm

Fiction not fact. Another tall story. If it had taken place, his name would have been recorded and he would have been interviewed to obtain information as to what happen. Salute
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyWed Apr 18, 2012 8:42 pm

There were several that hid.

One was intervied by Symonds the other by a newspaper.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandhlwautf.   Voorlooper - that hid @ Isandlawana EmptyThu Apr 19, 2012 1:35 am

Hi Littlehand .
In England's Sons there are about 19 or so references to ' Native Accounts ' from those who survived Isandhlwana , their testimonies arent quoted ; but Julian Tells you where they are quoted and have been written etc etc . Dont know how many though are Voorloopers .
Littlehand as for you thinking they ( native survivors ) would have been interviewed ............ Forget it ! . They , the British didnt interview all the Colonials that survived , so why would they even think about interviewing natives ??? . Shocked
Cheers 90th. Salute
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