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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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 Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne?

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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2262
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne?   Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyThu May 24, 2012 11:48 pm

Hi all,

HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by HAMILTON-BROWNE (capt. DEVELING) about the drama wich took place at Isandlwana? HARNESS decided to return to the camp after the message of RUSSEL or HB?

In "Zulu Rising" -Ian Knight p.313
"....Lt Col RUSSEL still trying to find CHELSMFORD, came upon HANRESS's guns (....) RUSSEL found that he had just received an extraordinary report from a messenger sent by HAMILTON BROWNE.(...)and his tone was urgent enough that HARNESS suggested returning to Isandlwana.(Arthur Harness, Helpmekaar, 25 Janvier 1879 – Sonia CLARKE « invasion of Zululand »).

In "Zulu Rising" -Ian Knignt
p.436
"...HARNESS heard the report of guns from the direction of Isandlwana"
Capitaine DEVELING (NNC) gave a message from Hamilton BROWNE to CHURCH (2/24th) "come in evey man,for god's shake; the camp is surrounded and will be taken unless helped at once".
"HARNESS decided to return to the camp and CHURCH and HARVEY agreed to go with him".
(GOSSET was not agreed with them).

regard

YMOB
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24th

24th

Posts : 1849
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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne?   Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyThu May 24, 2012 11:52 pm

Gosset. Rode off to tell Chelmsford what Harness was doing. He was sent back to tell them to continue with the original plan. Some believe this why Harness was call upon to act as an inquirer at the court of enquiry. There is a lot more information on this on the forum.
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ymob

ymob

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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne?   Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyFri May 25, 2012 12:28 am

24th wrote:
Gosset. Rode off to tell Chelmsford what Harness was doing. He was sent back to tell them to continue with the original plan. Some believe this why Harness was call upon to act as an inquirer at the court of enquiry. There is a lot more information on this on the forum.
[quote]

Hi 24th,

Thanks for your help, but i know that. :lol:

It's the meeting with RUSSEL who surprises me...
I always believed that the decision to return to the camp was taken by HARNESS ( or Wilsone BLACK in "zulu victory" : Ron Lock -Peter Quantrill) after having received the message of DEVELING-HAMILTON BROWNE ( not RUSSEL).

regard

YMOB
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne?   Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyFri May 25, 2012 7:30 am

I believe that it was DEVELING message of " For gods sake come back the camp is surrounded and must
be taken unless helped. "





Cheers
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24th

24th

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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne?   Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyFri May 25, 2012 8:49 pm

Quote :
"I believe that it was DEVELING message of " For gods sake come back the camp is surrounded and must"

Browne gets the credit for this. Well documented in the history books.
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ymob

ymob

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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne?   Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyFri May 25, 2012 9:24 pm

24th wrote:
Quote :
"I believe that it was DEVELING message of " For gods sake come back the camp is surrounded and must"

Browne gets the credit for this. Well documented in the history books.
[quote]

Hi 24th and DB14,

I am agree with you.
My problem is not the message of DEVELING (HAMILTON BROWNE) who was given to HARNESS , but the message of RUSSEL(HAMILTON BROWNE) to HARNESS


Regard

YMOB















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Ray63

Ray63

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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne?   Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyFri May 25, 2012 9:51 pm

For clarification from Browne.

"There was no time to write, but I said to Captain
Develin, a fine horseman and a finer fellow, ” Ride
as hard as you can, and tell every officer you meet,
‘ For God’s sake come back, the camp is surrounded
and must be taken."
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90th

90th

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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Isandhlwautf; Harness was informed by Russell or '' Maori '' Browne    Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyMon May 28, 2012 5:35 am

Hi ymob / all.
Hopefully this will clear up any conjecture here , the following is a letter written by Harness to his younger sister and no doubt to all his family members . Here is part of it regarding this matter .

Camp Helpmekaar , Natal , 25th Jan 1879 .
'' While I was going to the new camping ground I received a message from the camp saying that the camp was surrounded by zulus and , unless it had assistance , must be taken . Upon this I went about and meeting Cecil Russell who commands the cavalry , with a force of mounted infantry . I proposed with his escort to take the guns back to camp . We had no sooner agreed upon this than the General came up ; he had received a report of the state of the camp but nothing like so strong as the message I received . He thought the camp with six companies quite strong enough to defend itself against any number of blacks , so we marched back to our proposed new camping ground ''. Foonote 36. Harness does not refer to this incident again until 4th june , when he does so in reply to a query raised by his sister . He probably thought that the episode would harm Chelmesford's reputation .
Chelmesford and J.N.Crealock omitted to mention the episode in their reports , but Lt. Berkeley Milne , C'ford's Naval ADC, wrote in his report to Commodore Sullivan , R.N ; ' In the meantime news came that Col Harness had heard the firing and was proceeding with his guns , and the companies of infantry escorting them , to camp . Orders
were immediately sent to him to return and rejoin Col Glyn ' ; Parliamentary papers 1879 ( c 2454 ) , p.184. Milne headed his note . ' Report of proceedings of 21st ,22nd , 23rd and 24th Jan' and it was probably written on or shortly after the last mentioned date . It was not presented to parliament until Aug 1879 , when all Naval dispatches covering the Anglo Zulu War were put before the house . Edward Durnford described the incident ; he wrote that Gossett returned with the order for Harnes to retrace his steps , whereas Harness implied that Chelmesfors '' came up '' and thus issued the order personally . Edward Durnford also stated that the incident was deliberately suppressed by C'ford and his staff and in Natal , until the Natal Witness published the story on 29th May 79; Durnford , ' A Soldier's Life and Work ' pp 243 - 245 ; 277 - 281.
cheers 90th. You need to study mo

PS. This from ' Invasion Of Zululand 1879 ' by Sonia Clarke .
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ymob

ymob

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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne?   Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyMon May 28, 2012 10:10 pm

90th wrote:
Hi ymob / all.
Hopefully this will clear up any conjecture here , the following is a letter written by Harness to his younger sister and no doubt to all his family members . Here is part of it regarding this matter .

Camp Helpmekaar , Natal , 25th Jan 1879 .
'' While I was going to the new camping ground I received a message from the camp saying that the camp was surrounded by zulus and , unless it had assistance , must be taken . Upon this I went about and meeting Cecil Russell who commands the cavalry , with a force of mounted infantry....(...)

PS. This from ' Invasion Of Zululand 1879 ' by Sonia Clarke .

Hi 90th !

Great!!!
It's clear for me!... at last!
Tnak you very much.
P.S I don't have a copy of the book "Invasion of zululand" by sonia Clarke / It' s very expensive!!!

Regard

YMOB
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littlehand

littlehand

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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne?   Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyMon May 28, 2012 10:17 pm

90th. Was Sonia Clarke the author, or did she just edite the book.


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90th

90th

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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Isandhlwautf; Harness was informed by Russell or '' Maori '' Browne    Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyTue May 29, 2012 7:42 am

Hi Littlehand .
Sonia has written some of the book and also edited it , the letters in it are the one's actually written by Harness
and I think a couple of others . I havent got around to reading it as yet , but if I do post something I will say if it is written by an individual . Hope this has been some of some help .
Cheers 90th You need to study mo
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90th

90th

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Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? Empty
PostSubject: Isandhlwautf; Harness was informed by Russell or '' Maori '' Browne    Isandlwana: HARNESS was informed by RUSSEL or by "Maori" browne? EmptyTue May 29, 2012 7:48 am

Hi Ymob
There are two books by Sonia Clark - ' Invasion Of Zululand ' & ' Zululand at War ' both consist of Letters
written by Officers who were in the zulu war , and to answer your question they ARE VERY EXPENSIVE ! Shocked
I managed to get them for a very reasonable price but I was lucky to find them . The second one that I got I had to ask a lady in Sth Africa for help and she was lucky to find me a used copy at a very reasonable price . Very Happy
cheers 90th You need to study mo
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