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Zulu Dawn:“Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
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impi

impi

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Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyThu Nov 15, 2012 10:32 pm

It refers to Chelmsford chasing Shadows....
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyThu Nov 15, 2012 10:45 pm

Colenso's take on Isandlwana!!

"An order was also despatched to Colonel Durnford (at Rorke's Drift) to move up to Isandhlwana. Lieut- Colonel Pulleine's instructions for the defence of the camp were, briefly, to draw in his "line of defence" and "infantry outposts," but to keep his cavalry vedettes " still far advanced."4' We may here note that the only country searched was that direct to the front and right front—the direction of the waggon-track—although it is stated "the Lieut.-General had himself noticed mounted men in one direction (our left front) on the 21st, and in this direction he had intended to make a reconnaissance." (P. P. [C. 2260] p. 99).

After the departure of the advance column nothing unusual occurred in camp until between seven and eight o'clock, when it was reported from the advanced picquet (on the Ingqutu range of hills, about 1500 yards to the * Major Clery.

north) that a body of the enemy could be seen approach­ing from the north-east: and various small bodies were afterwards seen. Lieut.-Colonel Pulleine got his men under arms, and sent a written message off to head­quarters that a Zulu force had appeared on the hills on his left front. This was received "between 9.30 and 10 A.M."

Colonel Durnford received the General's order when on an expedition into Natal to obtain waggons, but at once returned to Rorke's Drift, and marched for Isandhlwana. Lieutenant Chard, R.E., who had ridden to camp for orders, "met Colonel Durnford about a quarter of a mile from the camp at the head of his mounted men " about 10.30 A.M., and told him the troops were in column outside the camp, and Zulus showing " on the crest of the distant hills," "several parties" working round so far to the left that he " was afraid they might be going to make a dash.at the Drift." He took orders to Major Russell to hurry up with the rocket battery, to detach a company of Sikali men to protect the baggage, and for all to " look out to the left."

Colonel Durnford reached the camp, and received all the information Lieut.-Colonel Pulleine could afford, finding the situation to be :—Lonsdale's natives on out­post duty on the hills to the left, the guns in position on the left of the camp, and the infantry under arms. The oxen were driven into camp and—Mr. Brickhill says—tied to the yokes, but not inspanned. Constant reports were coming in from the hills to the left— "The enemy are in force behind the hills." "The enemy are in three columns." " One column is moving to the left rear, and one towards the General." "The enemy are retiring in every direction." The enemy's force was given at 400 to 600.

On hearing these reports, Colonel Durnford sent one troop Natal Native Horse to reinforce his baggage guard; two troops to the hills to the left (under Captains G. Shepstone and Barton)—one to move along the crest of the range, one to search the valley beyond —and determined himself to go out to the front "and •prevent the one column joining the 'impi,' which was supposed at that time to be engaged with the troops under the General;" he asked Lieut.-Colonel Pulleine for two companies of the 24th, to which Colonel Pulleine replied, "that two companies could ill be spared, but that if Colonel Durnford ordered them, of course they should go." On consideration, Colonel Durnford decided only to take his own men,and moved out with his remaining two troops Natal Native Horse, followed by Major Russell's rocket battery, with its escort of a company of Native Contingent, under Captain Nourse.

A company 1-2 4th, under Lieutenant Cavaye, was sent out as a picquet to the hills about 1200 yards north of the camp, and the remainder of the troops dismissed to their private parades, where the men were to lie down in readiness to turn out if required. At this

* " There were no high words," Lieutenant Cochrane says, of any kind between the colonels, as some would lead the public to suppose. The above remarks are taken from Lieutenant Cochrane's account of what passed ; and he says : " I think no one lives who was present during the conversation but myself; so that anything said contradictory to my statement is invented'." time there was no expectation of an attack during the day, and no idea had been formed regarding the probable strength of the enemy.

The two troops sent on the hills to the left "to ascertain the enemy's movements," had proceeded "about five miles from the camp," when "the Zulu army came forward, advancing straight on towards the camp." Captain Shepstone ordered a retreat on the camp, and himself rode in with the warning that the "whole Zulu army was advancing to attack it."t Captain Shepstone met Captain Gardner on reaching the camp, and both officers then went to Colonel Pulleine, but, says Captain Gardner, the enemy were "already on the hill on our left in large numbers."

Colonel Durnford, having despatched his two troops to the left, had moved out to the front at a canter, fol­lowed at a foot's pace by the rocket battery, etc. About five miles out, a trooper rode down from the hills on the left, and reported an immense " impi" behind the hills, and almost immediately the Zulus appeared in force in front and on the left, in skirmishing order, ten or twelve deep, with supports close behind. They opened fire at about 800 yards, and advanced very rapidly. Colonel Durnford retired a little way—to a donga—and extended his men, then fell back, keeping up a steady fire, for about two miles, J when he came upon the remains of the rocket battery, which (it appeared) had turned to the left on hearing firing on the hills, been cut off, and broken up. Fighting was still going on here, but the Zulus were speedily driven back.

Colonel Durnford retired slowly on the camp, dis­puting every yard of ground, until he reached a donga about 800 yards in front of the right of the camp; there, prolonging the line of the camp troops, and the right being reinforced by between thirty and forty mounted men, under Captain Bradstreet, a stand was made.

' " This gully," Mr. Brickhill, interpreter to No. 3 Column, says, " the mounted force held most tenaciously, every shot appearing to take effect," and with the havoc caused by the guns, "a thousand Zulu dead must have laid between the conical hill and the gully. They lay just like peppercorns upon the plain."

The two troops of native horse sent to reconnoitre the Ingqutu Hills, retired fighting before the enemy in good order "to a crest in the neck which joins Sandhlwana to Ingqutu. Leaving their horses well sheltered here, they held this crest splendidly, keeping up a steady galling fire." * They were eventually com­pelled to retire, with the loss of Captain G. Shepstone. t We must now consider what had taken place at the camp. All was quiet till about twelve o'clock, when firing was heard on the hill where the company on picquet was stationed; the troops were immediately turned out and formed on the left front of the camp. About this time Captain Gardner, 14th Hussars, arrived with an order from the General, addressed to Lieut.-

* Mr. Brickhill.

t Having disengaged his men, Captain G. Shepstone said : " I must go and see where my Chief is," and rode in again. His devotion cost him his life.

Colonel Pulleine, " to send on the camp equipage and supplies of the troops camping out, and to remain him­self at his present camp and entrench it." * Captain G. Shepstone reached the camp with his warning about the same time. Colonel Pulleine decided it was impossible to carry out the General's order, as the enemy were already in great force on the hills to the left. Captain Gardner sent off a message to headr quarters, saying that "our left was attacked by about ten thousand of the enemy. A message was also sent by Colonel Pulleine."

One company (Captain Mostyn's) was moved up to support thepicquet; the enemy distant about 800 yards, moving "towards our left." Orders, to retire were received almost immediately, and the whole retired to the foot of the slope, the enemy rushing forward to the "crest of the hill as our men disappeared. Captain Younghusband's company was at this time in echelon on the left.

The guns came into action about 400 yards on the left front of the camp, "where they were able to throw shells into a large mass of the enemy that remained almost stationary about 3400 yards off."

The three advanced companies of the 24th retired on the main body, when the situation was this : The two • guns and the whole of the 24th in line, about 300 yards from the left front of the camp ; the natives took post on the right of the 24th; then came Durnford's Basutos; and the extreme right was formed

* Captain Gardner.   + Captain Essex.

J Lieutenant Curling, R.A.


by about forty mounted Europeans*—the force holding the only position that afforded any shelter, viz. broken ground and a " donga" in front of the camp ; the infantry "in good position among the stones and boulders to the left and left centre of the camp, and who stood their ground most gallantly."t The enemy approached to within about 400 yards, the two guns firing case. The heavy fire from the line told so upon the Zulus that they wavered and lay down ; they are said to have covered the valley in detached groups to the depth of about three-quarters of a mile.J

The enemy now began to work round the rear (which they could do with impunity owing to the formation of the ground), and Captain Essex says: "I rode up to Lieut.-Colonel Durnford, who was near the right, and pointed this out to him. He requested me to take men to that part of the field, and endeavour to hold the enemy in check;" but at this moment, he says, " those of the Native Contingent who had remained in action, rushed past us in the utmost disorder, thus laying open the right and rear of the 24th, the enemy dashing forward in the most rapid manner." The ammunition of the mounted troops failing (supplies had been re­peatedly sent for, but none came), Colonel Durnford retired them towards the right of the camp (where the waggons and ammunition of the Native Horse were), and himself galloped off to the 24th, having previously told Captain Gardner that the position was too ex­tended, and he desired to concentrate the force. Colonel Durnford's intention undoubtedly was to withdraw all * Captain Essex. f Lieutenant Cochrane. { Mr. Brickliill.

the troops to the rising ground on the right of the camp, to which point he had retired his Native Horse.

The Zulus rushed on the left in overwhelming numbers, completely surrounding the 24th. The guns limbered up, and made for the Rorke's Drift Road, but found it blocked by the enemy; they therefore " followed a crowd of natives and camp-followers, who were running down a ravine; the Zulus were all among them, stabbing men as they ran." Down this ravine the fugitives hastened, the enemy round and among them, the assegai doing its deadly work.

Lieut.-Colonel Pulleine was said by Lieutenant Coghill to have been killed,'* and during the flight Major Stuart Smith, R.A. (who had been wounded), Surgeon-Major Shepherd, and many a man, mounted and on foot, were killed. The Buffalo was gained at a point about five miles below Rorke's Drift, and numbers of the fugitives were either shot, or carried away by the stream and drowned. Lieutenants Melville and Coghill rode from the camp, on its being carried by the Zulus, the former with the Queen's colours of his regiment. These he bore into the river, but lost his horse, and was left struggling in the swift current; Lieutenant Coghill, who had safely crossed, rode in to his assistance, when his horse was shot. These brave young officers succeeded in gaining the Natal shore, but were soon overtaken by the enemy, and died fighting to the last. The Natal Native Horse escaped with little loss ; they assisted many in the retreat, which they covered as well as they could, especially under Captain Barton on the banks of the * Lieutenant Curling.

Buffalo. Captain Essex puts the time of the retreat from the camp at " about 1.30 P.M."

After this period no one living escaped from Isandhlwana, and it was supposed that the troops had broken, and, falling into confusion, that all had perished after a brief struggle.

Nothing was known of the after-events of that fatal day for months, till, on the 21st May, the scene of the disaster was revisited, and the truth of the gallant stand made was established"
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Dave

Dave

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Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyThu Nov 15, 2012 10:59 pm

Wonder why Raw isn't mentioned.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 6:56 am

Hello all

He has never had sham of the zulus, the Zulus that LC would attack were not a party of the royal army Zulu ...

Theses zulus operated independently as the abaqulusi ,without taking orders from the generals of the Royal Zulu Army .

In fact, Dartnell, LC and Durnford had too much imagination and Pulleine, not enough.

We saw the result.

PS: In fact, the responsibility of Dartnell is huge, but even if LC had remained in the camp with his troops, he was defeated ...

Cheers


Pascal
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 8:29 am

Wow, so many posts to respond to! Here goes...
Old Historian#1
Would you like to quote one of the "primary sources" you say were used to justify the argument? Moving the impi into the crescent formation does not indicate an imminent attack. It is indcative of the impi manoeuvring into the correct position in anticipation of their own eventual attack or of being attacked.
Old Historian #2
They didn't draw Chelmsford away from the camp on the 22nd. Look at the timings.
Pascal#1
I agree but only if the British adopt the same tactics, not if they don't.
Little hand#1
They do it to get close to the British and to get into formation so that the battle can be fought on their terms.
Pascal#2
Yes, I do think the British mistook the Zulus for Xhosa.
Tasker#1
There is no evidence for what you write but since you see logic behind it, explain to me the logic of waiting from 4.30 (when Chelmsford had gone) to 11.30 to mount an attack? How do you explain the separate accounts of Raw, Hamer, Nyanda (and Shepstone's hurried excitable return) regarding coming across the impi and it then giving chase? How do you explain the many Zulu accounts detailing the same event from the Zulu perspective?
As I wrote to you earlier, L&Q's work has many holes. If you like, we'll take them one by one. On p. 131 of Zulu Victory they write that messengers from Ntshingwayo visited Matshana and escorted him to see Ntshingwayo on the Mangeni where they conferred (presumably, the authors imply, to lay plans for the supposed feint). There is no evidence for this. There is no primary source. There is a footnote given but it does not relate to this event. I know of no primary source which states such a meeting occurred. It is supposition on the authors' part. Slipping a line of text, without foundation, into a work helps ease the reader into the view that the authors wish propounded. Of course, if you can give me a satisfactory source for this statement of 'fact', I'll withdraw the comment. If you can't we'll go on to a 2nd, 3rd, 4th...137th points which require sourcing and verification before their theory can begin to hold water. And it won't, because it's full of holes.
Chard#1
Colenso's remarks in her 2nd para sort of ridicule what she has to say in the first.
Chard#2
I really don't see the point of quoting a huge chunk from Colenso/Curling/Brickhill. What point are you trying to make?
Dave
Precisely. Colenso was selective and not totally inclusive.
Tasker#2
Now ask yourself why would the Zulus leaving accounts WANT to mislead or misinform years after the war? Are we to suppose a group conspiracy?

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 8:44 am

Hi Julian

" If British adopt the same tactics " scratch scratch scratch

Cheers

Pascal
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 9:51 am

Hi Littlehand .
Clery's statement to Pulleine ? . Are you referring to where Clery states he told Pulleine - Durnford was to move up to Isandlwana and '' reinforce the camp '' ? .This as far as I'm aware was only mentioned after the battle ! . I'm sure Julian will
straighten this out , because if Clery did as he said and issued that order to Pulleine, then Durnford has transgressed and we wouldnt be having this conversation on such a large scale , would we ? . I seriously doubt Clery issued that comment. In any case why would Clery issue such an order as he wasnt in command , and Chelmesford doesnt mention anything like it in his papers that I can see , I dont see the point you are endevouring to make . scratch If that was the point you were trying to make ??.
90th.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 9:57 am

Pascal
Yes, the same battle formation.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 10:05 am

Julian

Without barricades or laagers, they need at minimum 25 British infantry companies (excluding the rest), to defeat the Zulu royal army ...

if LC had been there with his troops, the disaster would have been greater. for the british army..

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 10:35 am

Pascal - did they have 25 companies at Kambula and Ulundi? And, proportionately, did they have the same at RD?
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 11:03 am

25 companies at Kambula ? :lol: :lol: :lol:

At Kambula they are 15 compagnies with barricades & laagers, (excluding the rest) and 33 British infantry companies at Ulundi (excluding the rest)...
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 11:12 am

Pascal
Ulundi - fair enough!
But at Kambula they did not need 25 companies minimum - and the Zulu impi was the same size as at Isandhlwana...
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 11:20 am

This is what kills me I tell you, they had a Kambula barricades and laagers, so 15 companies enough ...

Without laagers and/or barricades , must be a minimum of 25 companies of british infantry against a Zulu royal army of 20 000 to 25 000 men.

This is quasiement mathematical...
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 11:28 am

Pascal
What you say is true, but were there barricades and laagers at Ulundi...
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 12:01 pm

there were no barricades and/or laagers at Ulundi ... and at Gingindlovu, the infantry was a line of the outer laager, as saying he was useless, this is due to the fact that there were too many British infantry compaies to occupy the laager ...
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 12:12 pm

So, you agree with me then...for the British to have won at Isandhlwana they would need to have changed their battle formation (as at Rorke's Drfit) and to have included barricades, laagers, etc (as at Kambula)...but even then, to quote Wellington, it would have been "a close run thing"!
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable ?   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 12:24 pm

Hi Julian .
I think you'll find Evelyn Wood said the same words after Kambula .
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 12:45 pm

Julian

But even if they had wanted to, the defenders of Isandhlwana camp could not build a laager valid or valid barricades, there was not what it meant and certainly not enough cars

Gary

If the fightings at Isandhlwana and Rorcke's Drift had not occurred, Wood would not have strengthened his position at Kambula as he did and then he would have been crushed ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 12:51 pm

Julian and Gary

I forgot, I think that Wood was as stupid as the other commanders of columns in the first invasion ...

It's like the Franco - German War of 1870- 71 , there are only morons at the head of the great French military units ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 12:52 pm

Pascal .
You may be right , the fortifications certainly saved Wood , along with the not well timed attack from the zulu army , who by all reports were lured in by Buller .
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 1:32 pm

Gary.

You may be right , Buller lured the young morons of inGobamakhosi , but without the fortifications ,with or without Buller tactic ,no victory for Wood over the zulu army...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 2:34 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Wow, so many posts to respond to! Tasker#1
There is no evidence for what you write but since you see logic behind it, explain to me the logic of waiting from 4.30 (when Chelmsford had gone) to 11.30 to mount an attack? How do you explain the separate accounts of Raw, Hamer, Nyanda (and Shepstone's hurried excitable return) regarding coming across the impi and it then giving chase? How do you explain the many Zulu accounts detailing the same event from the Zulu perspective?
As I wrote to you earlier, L&Q's work has many holes. If you like, we'll take them one by one. On p. 131 of Zulu Victory they write that messengers from Ntshingwayo visited Matshana and escorted him to see Ntshingwayo on the Mangeni where they conferred (presumably, the authors imply, to lay plans for the supposed feint). There is no evidence for this. There is no primary source. There is a footnote given but it does not relate to this event. I know of no primary source which states such a meeting occurred. It is supposition on the authors' part. Slipping a line of text, without foundation, into a work helps ease the reader into the view that the authors wish propounded. Of course, if you can give me a satisfactory source for this statement of 'fact', I'll withdraw the comment. If you can't we'll go on to a 2nd, 3rd, 4th...137th points which require sourcing and verification before their theory can begin to hold water. And it won't, because it's full of holes.
Tasker#2
Now ask yourself why would the Zulus leaving accounts WANT to mislead or misinform years after the war? Are we to suppose a group conspiracy?


Julian, thanks for your reply and taking the time to reply so thoroughly.
1. The logic behind the time delay in LC's column leaving and the attack beginning is obvious enough to me.
From moving from a position of not going to attack for a day and a half, to seeing an opportunity for immediate action would be straight forward for a unit of 4 or 5 men. To mobilise an army of 20,000+ men for such a task would not be quite so straightforward.
2. I do not doubt the fact that Raw stumbled across the main Zulu impi.
3. The existence of primary source written accounts to cover every event to do with iSandlwana does not exist. The lack of written primary source accounts for every single possible event should not preclude or eliminate the posiibility that something over and above every event that is specifically referenced by a primary source MIGHT have happened.
(Jehova's Witnesses use this old chestnut to poo-poo the theory of Evolution and Natural Selection by exploiting the gaps in the fossil record, whilst ignoring the over-whelming weight of logid).
4. Why would the Zulus want to mislead years after the event? I don't know, but a group conspiracy is a possibility. More likely perhaps, those Zulus who left accounts were not included and party to the thinking and planning of the senior commanders and genuinely didn't know. This is called a "need to know basis." It is not unusual and never has been, to send men and middle ranking officers on operations without their knowing what the real objective is. Hence, if they get captured, they can't spill the beans under interrogation.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 3:07 pm

Poor Julian Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 4:35 pm

Tasker
Your point 1
"To mobilise an army of 20,000+ men for such a task would not be quite so straightforward."
No, indeed it would not and they were still manoeuvring into position when Raw stumbled across them.
Your point 2
"I do not doubt the fact that Raw stumbled across the main Zulu impi."
Good. But the corollary of that statement is that the impi attacked then, without orders, out of place regimentally, and had to be hauled back by Tshingwayo to 'dress', in so far as he could.
Your point 3
"The existence of primary source written accounts to cover every event to do with iSandlwana does not exist. The lack of written primary source accounts for every single possible event should not preclude or eliminate the posiibility that something over and above every event that is specifically referenced by a primary source MIGHT have happened."
Indeed. But where written primary source accounts for an event DO preclude or eliminate other possibilities you seem to be suggesting we ignore them where it is politically expedient to do so. History does not work that way.
Your point 4
"...a group conspiracy is a possibility. More likely perhaps, those Zulus who left accounts were not included and party to the thinking and planning of the senior commanders and genuinely didn't know. This is called a "need to know basis."
A group conspiracy among a disparate African native tribe is not feasible. There are no precedents.
Zulus leaving accounts who were not party to senior commanders' ideas would simply answer that they did not know or remain silent - there are plenty of such examples in the JSA. Even so, ordinary Zulus waiting on the Nqutu would have known what was going on, when things were expected, the order of certain pre-battle rituals, and so on. Every soldier, modern and ancient, knows the ritual lead up to an attack. A need-to-know basis only extends to the details of an operation not the onset of an imminent attack. The Zulu warriors would have known for certain whether it was expected of them to attack that day had it been so planned. All the Zulu accounts are so certain - they don't equivocate - and L&Q simply ignore them (for politically correct reasons - and political correctness has no place in the writing of history).
Zulus leaving accounts who were party to senior commanders' ideas would say what they knew - and we're talking here of men like Mpatshana - no minor inDuna!
P.S. I chose ZV instead of TMFH because the feint is better exploited there. I won't take the examination further if you don't want me to but you should look at L&Q's quotations and compare them with the text from the original documents.
Pascal
Pauvre? Moi? I think I'm feeling a bit better (just had some dry toast and it hasn't re-appeared).


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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 4:47 pm

Chard. No No No No!!! You can't post anything from that Colenso women. Read the forum rules it states it large bold capital letters. Your learn nothing from her...
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 5:05 pm

Littlehand wrote.
Quote :
How would you explain the reports coming in that, Zulu's were seen in large numbers at various locations around the camp. If they hadn't planne to attack, they would have remained hidden, or at least to the point before being discovered my Raw & Co
.

Julian's reply.

"
Quote :
They do it to get close to the British and to get into formation so that the battle can be fought on their terms
."

Doesn't make sense. If they hadn't planned on attacking on the 22nd, why would they try and get close to the British on the 22nd. Could understand a few Zulus being sent out to gather intelligence, but not hundreds of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 5:07 pm

Thanks again Julian, good points well made.
Number 1. No reply necessary on your part. You asked me for a reason for the delay in attacking, I gave you a reason ...and you agreed with it.
I am not saying we should ignore primary accounts, but we do need to be wary of them and not treat them as gospel. Many primary accounts have been made which were a pack of lies (take for example the recent revelations re Hillsborough) other primary accounts have been made in 100% honesty and good faith, but are wholly inaccurate due to misinformation. Take for example the WW2 raid on the Amiens prison. A participant in that raid will tell you the objective was to free Resistance prisoners as that is what he was told. However, more recent revelations have suggested that this raid (and many more like it) were actually feints, to wrong foot the Nazis about the true location, in the run up to the Normandy landings. (Obviously, the participants were misinformed in case of capture to protect the bigger plan).
What I am saying of course is that the Zulus at Mangeni may have been told, and believed, they were catching up with the main impi, when in fact they were part of a feint - they would never have needed to know.
As an historian, I appreciate that you must play a straight bat and limit yourself to facts and evidence alone. Thus, you have to limit yourself to believing that LC's wild goose chase to Mangeni was but another piece of hard luck to befall the 3rd column.
As I have said, I am still willing to be convinced either way about the Mangeni force being a decoy or not, but currently, my gut feeling is that Cetshwayo, in that first battle, was smarter than he was given credit for.
Julian - recommend me one good text (not TMFH) that explores and discards the feint theory in detail and I will get the reading done over Xmas.


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 5:34 pm

Julian. I'm not sure one needs to quote primary sources. The fact of the matter was the formation was moving to the camp. This showing themselves as the aggressors.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 5:39 pm

Julian

I complained only for you ,to the mass of the questions we ask you ...

( Au faites ,quand réponds tu à mes e-mails et à mes sujets sur ce forum ?)

To do, sorry, but without the intervention of Raw, no Zulu attack the January 22 ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 6:40 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

Doesn't make sense. If they hadn't planned on attacking on the 22nd, why would they try and get close to the British on the 22nd. Could understand a few Zulus being sent out to gather intelligence, but not hundreds of them.

Indeed.
The British media and propaganda machine of the 1870s knew that the British public could and would not face the fact that the column was beaten by superior planning, preparation, intelligence and tactics of a "savage" army and its King.
(Better to think of it as a "disaster" - or series of cock ups by an individual or two, and a series of bits of damned, jolly bad luck).
Accounts are written and preserved - or discarded - by the (eventual) victors, for latter day historians to discover and propagate the myth.
The Zulus intended to attack on the 22nd. Of course they did. Anything else defies logic, common sense, shows a lack of free thinking and is buying into the contemporary, official version of evemts and proaganda of the day; 133 years later!
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 7:33 pm

To do, sorry,tasker , but without the intervention of Raw, no Zulu attack the January 22 ...
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 7:43 pm

Pascal, you have already stated this many times before without ever explaining why you think this, there is no need to keep repeating yourself.

Please, if you are going to post, aim to say somethinig new or different.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 7:48 pm

Everyone, including you, knows why the Zulus should not attack that day ... All the rest is literature.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 8:13 pm

"Should not" ? But they DID attack on the 22nd!

The opportunity of taking the camp having arisen with the splitting of the force, would and indeed did, easily over ride any superstitions regarding the moon! :lol:

The Zulu were not silly, Pascal.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 8:17 pm

The Zulu Were Not silly, but he was superstitious Tasker :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well it would have happened that day if Raw was not provoked the attack?
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 9:03 pm

Julian
"
Quote :
So, you agree with me then...for the British to have won at Isandhlwana they would need to have changed their battle formation (as at Rorke's Drfit) and to have included barricades, laagers, etc (as at Kambula)...but even then, to quote Wellington, it would have been "a close run thing"!"

I would say read Lord Chelmsford's Zululand Campaign 1878-1879 page 220. There he gives an excellent over of the camp and what could have been done, if the two officers on that day had used the camp and the terrain to their advantage..


Pascal
Quote :
The Zulu Were Not silly, but he was superstitious Tasker
Well it would have happened that day if Raw was not provoked the attack?

Preperation to attack tne camp, was we'll on underway before Raw discovered the Zulus.


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 9:07 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Well it would have happened that day if Raw was not provoked the attack?

Yes. The Zulu saw LC's column leave. The opportunity to attack on the 22nd was too tempting. Blow the moon!
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 9:09 pm

Ulundi wrote:
I would say read Lord Chelmsford's Zululand Campaign 1878-1879 page 220. There he gives an excellent over of the camp and what could have been done, if the two officers on that day had used the camp and the terrain to their advantage..

No bias in this account in any way, you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 9:53 pm

Quote :
Hi Littlehand .
Clery's statement to Pulleine ? . Are you referring to where Clery states he told Pulleine - Durnford was to move up to Isandlwana and '' reinforce the camp '' ? .This as far as I'm aware was only mentioned after the battle ! . I'm sure Julian will
straighten this out , because if Clery did as he said and issued that order to Pulleine, then Durnford has transgressed and we wouldnt be having this conversation on such a large scale , would we ? . I seriously doubt Clery issued that comment. In any case why would Clery issue such an order as he wasnt in command , and Chelmesford doesnt mention anything like it in his papers that I can see , I dont see the point you are endevouring to make . If that was the point you were trying to make ??.
90th.

90th. What Littlehand is trying to point out, is quite clear. I will use Clery's statement.

1) Clery was going to send Durnford this order. "The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp"

2) But for whatever reason, Chelmsford instructed Crealock to send the order. Clery makes reference to this. "but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions, and not I"

3) All Crealock had to do was send the original order as shown in (fig 1)

So Clery and Chelmsford must of assumed that Crealock was going to send to Durnford "bring his force to strengthen the camp"

With this is mind, Clery then states "I mentioned in the written instructions to Colonel Pulleine that Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his force to strengthen the camp"

It makes sense that he should make Pulleine aware of Durnfords orders.

Quote :
90th Durnford was to move up to Isandlwana and '' reinforce the camp '' ? .This as far as I'm aware was only mentioned after the battle ! . I'm sure Julian will straighten this out ,

The statement made by Clery is from the court of enquiry, primary source. Crealock would have had the opertunity to disagree with what Clery said. He didn't. Again when someone can't reply, they start using what "ifs"

The order that was originally intended for Durnford was not the one he received from Crealock..
The Order above would have confirmed what was expected of him when he arrived at the camp. "strengthen" Not take command, Not leave. So in a nut shell "It was CREALOCK" who send the misleading order, not Chelmsford.

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 10:22 pm

Ulundi .
'' The statement made by Clery is from the Court Of Enquiry - Primary Source '' as you put it . MADE after the disaster ( not shouting ) . Why would anyone wish to disagree and stand on other living people's toes ! . Durnford could be used as the reason the camp fell so they used him . Funnily enough , with what Clery states he manages to cover his own backside on the two occasions .....
1 / I was going to write .......Blah , Blah , Blah .
2/ No , He told Crealock to write it !. Do you understand what I'm trying to say ? .

As you say all Crealock had to do was send what was in FIG1 . Crealock didnt send Fig 1 because it '' DIDNT EXIST'' in those words from Clery till after the Battle. Each to his own , but until you can prove that Durnford or Pulleine was given an order , ordering Durnford to move to the camp and '' Strengthen it '' . I'll go with what I think to be more to the point and not guess or assume .
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 10:30 pm

Quote :
2/ No , He told Crealock to write it !. Do you understand what I'm trying to say ? .
Chelmsford told Creadlock to send it not Clery.

Quote :
DIDNT EXIST'' in those words from Clery till after the Battle
.
I don't normally say this, but could you provide evidence to show this to be the case.

Quote :
but until you can prove that Durnford or Pulleine was given an order , ordering Durnford to move to the camp and '' Strengthen it

That's the point he wasn't order to " Strengthen" the camp, because Creadlock didn't send the order he was told to send.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 10:35 pm

Thanks Ulundi. You nailed it. I thought I was going mad, its so simple to understand.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 10:54 pm

Julian. TMFH is a remarkable document. Most of us appricate it may contain errors, but then so do most books written on this subject, sometimes it's necessary to fill in the gaps. But to condemn it based on that is un-professional. You say that there is no primary sources to support these issues, but maybe that's because you can't find them. I have look at the thread on the other forum, and all I can conclude from that it's a case of sour grapes,and the green eyed monster. For me until someone can provided a document as exhaustive as TMFH using primary sources that contradict what Peter & Ron have shown, then is holds water for me. I notice some members who at the time of publication, they supported TMFH, but after a few comments from yourself. They now doubt TMFH. It's just ashame they can't provide the reasons why. I also feel this discussion is going no where, as some members now rely on you to " straighten things out" when they can't find and answer to a question, or can't work out a reasoning for themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 11:06 pm

LH.
Quote :
I have look at the thread on the other forum, and all I can conclude from that it's a case of sour grapes,and the green eyed monster.

Funny you should say that, I checked it out yesterday, and came to the same conclusion. There no real dialog, just comments ripping TMFH apart. Mostly personal opinions. TMFH is one of the best publications ever to be written.. Salute

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 11:25 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 11:35 pm

Salute Goog thinking Admin. if it work back them. It must work now, Shocked

Ulundi / Littlehand. I see what you are saying. Chelmsford, Clery, Pulliene. We're all thinking along the same lines. It was Crealock who messed it up. He should have sent the original order. Salute
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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Location : Lancashire, England.

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable.   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptyFri Nov 16, 2012 11:40 pm

90th is right.

The statements were made AFTER the loss at iSandlwana, and Clery covered his own backside.

It's all well and good people making statements AFTERWARDS, it gives them a chance to try to work out what they are going to say at the enquiry. It also gives them time to have a talk amongst themselves and put a story together to see who they can implicate and blame for the loss.

It's also ok saying what SHOULD have been written, the important thing to remember is that IT WASN'T.

If Chelmsford had changed his mind about what he wanted Durnford to do, ie; (the orders of the 19th to support him in his attack on the zulus), then he should have made this absolutely clear in the orders sent on the 22nd, and should personally have seen to it that the correct wording in the orders were sent to Durnford, but he didn't. So as far as Durnford is concerned, when he receives the orders on the 22nd, he is moving forward to the camp (where he would no doubt be expecting further orders), then he would be moving on to support Chelmsford against the zulus.

After the loss at iSandlwana, Chelmsford, Crealock, Clery and others, realised their mistakes, so it is now a question of who they can use to take the blame and make into a scapegoat, and who better than Col Durnford, after all, he is dead and can't say anything can he?

Between them, they stitched Col Durnford up, but there were others back home who saw through this web of lies and deception.

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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptySat Nov 17, 2012 1:14 am

Ulundi .
Are you saying Crealock is at fault because he didnt stipulate in his orders that he ( Durnford) was to strengthen the camp ????. Dont forget you only have Clery's statement he conveniently released AFTER the battle stating that Durnford was to strengthen the camp !. Crealock never issued ' Strengthen the camp ' because he was never told to do so !. So those above , should have told Crealock to say so, or simply as I believe it was never part of any order , until Clery made it so after the disaster to cover his own backside !!. Hope you understand the point I'm endevouring to put across . Dont worry I also think Crealock is partly to blame along with others .
90th.

John.
This is the point , there was no order stating Durnford was to '' strengthen the camp '' until Clery concocted it after the battle !. Do you not see they that they were all covering for each other ?. If this was to be stated in the orders , you'd think Chelmesford would've mentioned it in his papers , and I cant find him saying that was the case !

Littlehand
Julian is the what you'd call the resident expert in this field on the forum so he would be far more organised than many others on here so it makes sense he would be asked to straighten things out on occasion !
90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptySat Nov 17, 2012 7:10 am

Ho guys

Durnford was not to'' Strengthen the camp " , Because that day, he and Pulleine had to leave the camp on the orders of LC to join him in his utopias ...

Ulundi, the Zulu may lunantiques but they respect theirs coutûmes (and the moon ...)

Guys you forget constantly the enormous responsabilitée of Dartnell in this affair of Isandhlwana ...

Without Dartnell and Raw ,no battle of Isandhlwana...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 8 EmptySat Nov 17, 2012 7:35 am

No, but it is Dartnell who misled LC ? Yes or " Merde " !!!
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