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 Durnford was he capable.2

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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:16 pm

Ulundi wrote:
The fault was in the placing of the infantry who were spread out exposing large gaps between the companies and within the companies. When the battle commenced, messages were coming in from Scott and those others who had see the large number of Zulu appearances, Pulleine decided to send two companies north to Talehane ridge where the Zulus had been seen in greater numbers, but Pulliene did not recall the company of NNC on Magaga Knoll located right in the path of the Zulu movement. As the main assault came in from the north-east, his action was to recall the two companies, leaving the others - Wardell's and Porteous's - where they had been all morning. Pulleine's placing of the companies left them with very serious problems, even the power of the Martini-Henrys rifles couldn't overcome.

Happy to be corrected, and willing to learn!!!

Ulundi

Firstly, Durnford sent Cavaye to the Spur and Pulleine sent Mostyn to reinforce him.

Pulleine sent his men out according to Chelsmfords orders. Not Pulleine fault they were so far from camp, how
was he to know that this deployment wouldn't work.

Wardell's and Porteous's companies were not left were they had been all morning, all morning they had been on
the parade ground.


Cheers
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Ulundi

Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:18 pm

Disagree. Staying in the camp where there was plenty of ammuntion. We know that some of the Compaines laid down so much fire power, that the Zulu's wavered. Just image what all the Compaines could have done as one, hundreds of rounds per minuite. It would have had proven to hot for the Zulu's. throw in the Royal Artilley, and mounted infantry. Chances of survival would have increased dramatically.
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Ulundi

Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:20 pm

Quote :
Pulleine sent his men out according to Chelsmfords orders

You have mentioned this on many occasions. Can you post the order you talk of.
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:28 pm

Dave wrote:
Thinking about the film Zulu, when they took the water buckets around, I doubt those at Isandlwana had that provision. Then in reality Chard led a charge to get the water cart back inside the compound.
but i guess if ammo wasn't getting to the firing lines, I doub't water woud be either.

Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift are not similar battles and movies can be highly misleading anyway. Whereas RD is a vastly smaller battle in terms of numbers and geography, it was a much more drawn out affair.

I'm sure men were thirsty during Isandlwana -- fear does that -- but dry mouth would not have substantially hindered the performance of those stranded on the main battlefield. They died much too quickly. The 24th had ample time to eat before the battle. To my way of thinking the main engagement lasted about an hour and a half. My guess is that some might have been dehydrated but not on the verge of collapse. Those fleeing would have been in far worse condition which is why a horse was essential to survival. Even so, after barely escaping with his life at Fugitive's Drift , Smith-Dorrien ran all the way to Helpmakaar.

Try to imagine the pace of developments at Isandlwana overwhelming the British command -- because that's what happened. They couldn't get ahead of the curve. RD was an entirely different situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:29 pm

Ulundi

The tactical instructions left by LC for Pulleine for the defense of the camps are in the last book of Julian....

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:33 pm

6pdr

The soldiers of the colonial wars are never on top, health issue,(hot climat) but fear gives wings ...
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:37 pm

Ulundi wrote:
Disagree. Staying in the camp where there was plenty of ammuntion. We know that some of the Compaines laid down so much fire power, that the Zulu's wavered. Just image what all the Compaines could have done as one, hundreds of rounds per minuite. It would have had proven to hot for the Zulu's. throw in the Royal Artilley, and mounted infantry. Chances of survival would have increased dramatically.
#

But how where they surposed to defend the entire camp in that way ? It streched for over 1,000 yards.

Out on the firing line, the companies held the Zulus back until Durnford broke, than a whole chain of events happened in a very short time, the left horn is clear to advance, leaving the 24th out flanked and forcing them to fall back, the right horn attacks from the rear[u]

The orders that Pulleine followed set out by Chelsmford are published in Full in Julians work, i have a copy and
there is also a copy, but with several mistakes, on the AZWHS and in Greaves work on Isandlwana.



Cheers
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tasker224

tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:38 pm

Ulundi wrote:
Staying in the camp where there was plenty of ammuntion. We know that some of the Compaines laid down so much fire power, that the Zulu's wavered. Just image what all the Compaines could have done as one, hundreds of rounds per minuite. It would have had proven to hot for the Zulu's. throw in the Royal Artilley, and mounted infantry. Chances of survival would have increased dramatically.


Correct. The only tactic that might have worked would have been to form a square using the whole of the camp's force.
OK, Pulleine may not have known the sheer strength of the force he was facing; but why not?


Last edited by tasker224 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:39 pm

Ulundi wrote:
Disagree. Staying in the camp where there was plenty of ammuntion.

There were two ammunition wagons, one of which was well outside "the camp." They ran out of time, real estate and lives, then ammunition.

Ulundi wrote:
We know that some of the Compaines laid down so much fire power, that the Zulu's wavered. Just image what all the Compaines could have done as one, hundreds of rounds per minuite. It would have had proven to hot for the Zulu's. throw in the Royal Artilley, and mounted infantry. Chances of survival would have increased dramatically.

Would'a, could'a, should'a...repeat...rinse. Just imagine if the British had had B-52s...like Napoleon at Waterloo.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:42 pm

6pdr wrote:
They ran out of time, real estate and lives, then ammunition.[/left]

Ran out of time? Unforgiveable. Pulleine was receiving reports of Zulu movements of "several thousnd" warriors, for hours, and hours and hours.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:47 pm

"Dear Durnford,

Unless you carry out the instructions I give you, it will be my unpleasant duty to remove you from your command, and to substitute another officer for officer for the commander of No. 2 Column.  When a column is acting SEPARATELY in an enemy's country I am quite ready to give its commander every latitude, and would certainly expect him to disobey any orders he might receive from me, if information which he obtained showed that it would be injurious to the interests of the column under his command.  Your neglecting to obey my instructions in the present instance has no excuse.  You have simply received information in a letter from Bishop Schroeder[sic], which may or may not be true and which you have no means of verifying.  If movements ordered are to be delayed because report hints at a chance of an invasion of Natal, it will be impossible for me to carry out my plan of campaign.  I trust you will understand this plain speaking and not give me any further occasion to write in a style which is distasteful to me. Chelmsford."

Although its address to Durnford, it's worth noting that The Good Lord Chelmsford, states very clearly
"COMMANDER" that's means to all who commanded a column!!

The orders on the day, are the ones to be debated. Those prior have no bearing on what took place at Isandlwana. There were roughly 1800 men at Isandlwana. Do the maths DB if the camp was a 1000 yards. But it's not the size of the camp, its what would have kept the men alive. If they had crammed into 500 yards, the zulu's would still have to had taken that 500 yards to claim their victory.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:51 pm

Tasker

Whatever their dispositions, without laagers, they were walking dead men Sad

Ulundi

The tactical instructions left by LC for Pulleine for the defense of the camps are in the last book of Julian.... Salute

Cheers

Pascal
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 6:53 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:

But how where they surposed to defend the entire camp in that way ? It streched for over 1,000 yards.

Which is more than a half mile...just for the front of the perimeter and they would have needed to mount an all around defense.

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Out on the firing line, the companies held the Zulus back until Durnford broke, than a whole chain of events happened in a very short time, the left horn is clear to advance, leaving the 24th out flanked and forcing them to fall back, the right horn attacks from the rear[u]

This is where the ammunition fallacy fails the sniff test. Even if Durnford's command had unlimited ammo and they managed to hold the donga, the right horn flows up over the nek into the rear flank of the camp. Morale collapse, mayhem ensues; even fewer Brits and their allies survivie. The British command either was unaware of or lacked the resources to deal with the sweeping movement by the right horn. Check and mate. No matter what, it's game over.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:00 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
Tasker

Whatever their dispositions, without laagers, they were walking dead men Sad


I disagree Pascal. A square can not be outflanked. The weight of Zulu numbers at iSandlwana were a problem, but the defensive line being outflanked was the cause of the collapse, ultimately.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:00 pm

DB, it's about time you tryed to place yourself in the places of the officers and men, instead of keep quoting orders. Orders I meant to be broken, if it's a matter of life and death. Even Garner advised Pulliene to disregard the Generals orders, in view if the situation..

Perhaps you was the little drummer boy who refused to leave the ammuntion waggon obeying orders, in your first life.. Who know's!!!!!
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:02 pm

tasker224 wrote:
Ran out of time? Unforgiveable. Pulleine was receiving reports of Zulu movements of "several thousnd" warriors, for hours, and hours and hours.

OK, that's your judgement. I have my doubts about the part he played too, but he paid with his life. All I'm asking is for people here to stop blaming Durnford who (IMO) did everything he possibly could to save a situation that was untenable by the time he arrived in the camp. A less romantic man would have ridden off with the Edendale contingent and lived to tell the tale.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:05 pm

Quote :
I disagree Pascal. A square can not be outflanked. The weight of Zulu numbers at iSandlwana were a problem, but the defensive line being outflanked was the cause of the collapse, ultimately.

And don't forget there was a bloody great unforgiving hill protecting the rear of the soldiers. The bonus being plenty of ammuntion to hand.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:09 pm

Quote :
OK, that's your judgement. I have my doubts about the part he played too, but he paid with his life. All I'm asking is for people here to stop blaming Durnford who (IMO) did everything he possibly could to save a situation that was untenable by the time he arrived in the camp. A less romantic man would have ridden off with the Edendale contingent and lived to tell the tale.

Quote :
All I'm asking is for people here to stop blaming Durnford
:lol: you need to do better than that... He was a law un to himself..
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:10 pm

6pdr wrote:
tasker224 wrote:
Ran out of time? Unforgiveable. Pulleine was receiving reports of Zulu movements of "several thousnd" warriors, for hours, and hours and hours.

OK, that's your judgement. I have my doubts about the part he played too, but he paid with his life. All I'm asking is for people here to stop blaming Durnford who (IMO) did everything he possibly could to save a situation that was untenable by the time he arrived in the camp. A less romantic man would have ridden off with the Edendale contingent and lived to tell the tale.

I entirely concur with your views on Durnford 6pdr Salute
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:13 pm

[quote="Chelmsfordthescapegoat"]
Quote :
:lol: you need to do better than that... He was a law un to himself..

One minute you are advocating "orders are there to be broken" and then this!

Make up your mind, man! Salute
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:16 pm

Don't know what your talking about Tasker. Please explain.

Anyway.

 Early in 1875 Sir Benjamin Pine was replaced by Major-General Sir Garnet Wolseley,

" Wolseley was in Natal to ring the changes and hasten the implementation of the confederation plans.  His attitudes and bigotry would soon rankle Bishop Colenso; this in turn would have an effect on Durnford, because of his affinity with the bishop, and his alleged liaison with the bishop's daughter, Frances.  Wolseley personally reprimanded him for siding with the liberal cleric.  He added in a veiled threat unless Durnford conformed he would place his position of Acting Colonial Engineer in jeopardy."

As I said a law un to himself.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:18 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
DB, it's about time you tryed to place yourself in the places of the officers and men, instead of keep quoting orders.

This is a position of weakness that DB14 has and will always have, as a 15 year old school boy - sorry if that sounds patronising, not trying to be. Until he has done his stint in HM armed forces (and I recommend he does) and has faced a few life or/and death situations himself - and possibly disregarded an order or two under these circumstances, he will never be able to put himself in the place of the officers and men who were there.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:21 pm

"On 10th October, 1875 Durnford was officially relieved of his civil appointment by Captain Albert Henry Hime, of the Royal Engineers.  Durnford was acutely embarrassed at being relieved by a junior officer of his own corps, especially by one who had only been a captain for eighteen months." Shocked
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:23 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
"On 10th October, 1875 Durnford was officially relieved of his civil appointment by Captain Albert Henry Hime, of the Royal Engineers.  Durnford was acutely embarrassed at being relieved by a junior officer of his own corps, especially by one who had only been a captain for eighteen months." Shocked

Relevence? scratch
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:30 pm

Come on Tasker.. He's doing what we all do. He providing a profile on Dunford. And let's be honest. It's not looking good. Rolling Eyes
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:32 pm

Hook's previous profile looked pretty miserable; until RD Shocked
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:37 pm

Haven't read up on Hook yet! But I hope your not talking about how he was portrayed in the film as fact. Because that was a load of rubbish, which caused a lot of problems. Hook was a Gentleman and a first class solider.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:39 pm

Yes, I know, i know! I know he was not portrayed well at all in the film Zulu. and he was in fact a good soldier, but just making the point with a well known - if inaccurate example - that many a previously "bad soldier" has exceeded everything that was expected of them in battle, including VC winners
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:41 pm

...and Durnford should have got the VC!
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 7:45 pm

CTSG. Is posting from primary accounts. Or information from primary accounts. Durnford played his part in the down fall of the camp. It's not a case of us not blaming him.
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 8:13 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
As I said a law un to himself.

Wolseley Question Wasn't he know for wielding both official and unofficial influence in the Army? Being big on confederation however puts him on the wrong side of history IMO.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 8:22 pm

Wolseley was replaced by Sir Henry Bulwer, it was during Bulwer reign that Durnford was relieved of his civil appointment. You could say Wolseley just had a friendly word with Durford, mainly about his political views. Wolseley was quite up-set when Durnford left!!
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 8:29 pm

littlehand wrote:
Come on... He's doing what we all do.

Not me...or at least I hope not. Rather than answering points with logical argument he simply posts often unattributed ad hominem attacks on Durnford that have nothing to do with his conduct on the day of the battle.

There's a reason that such "evidence" isn't admitted into a courtroom when it's not relevant to the fact at hands. But CTSG has nothing else. He just keeps blowing raspberries and calling Durnford names. No judge in the land would allow it, and no jury would find in his favor. But there are no rules of evidence here.

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 8:36 pm

Perhaps if you went back of previous topics regarding Lord Chelmsford. CTSG readily took a lot of stick from other members, for his views regarding LCs reputation. He held his own until people started as you say blowing "raspberries" at LC. It's this forum that has turned him into the monster he his. :lol:
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 8:39 pm

Exactly right 6pdr, well said.
Completely agree that the "evidence" CTSG posts in order to try and discredit Durnford is both inadmissable and totally irrelevent to his conduct on the day Salute
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 8:45 pm

Whatever! One day you will realise what Durnford was really like, he was a Zulu sympathiser.
A gambler, Alcoholic, and a loose cannon. You can try and dress him up as much as you like. Colenso failed, Edward Durford failed, why? Because the evidence was stacked against him.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 8:46 pm

6pdr wrote:
But CTSG has nothing else. He just keeps blowing raspberries and calling Durnford names. No judge in the land would allow it, and no jury would find in his favor. But there are no rules of evidence here.


Salute
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 8:58 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Whatever! One day you will realise what Durnford was really like, he was a Zulu sympathiser.
A gambler, Alcoholic, and a loose cannon. You can try and dress him up as much as you like. Colenso failed, Edward Durford failed, why? Because the evidence was stacked against him.

So was Churchill. Maybe if you call Durnford a Communist you can put more distance between them. I do like you choice of words. The evidence was indeed STACKED against him. And don't be so sure that Colenso and E. Durnford "failed." Chelmsford was never allowed a field command again. Seems to me somebody took a hard look and sniffed, "Not quite up to snuff, is he?" (Wouldn't be surprised if Wolseley had a say.)
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 8:59 pm

DELETED OFF TOPIC
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 9:03 pm

Quote :
Chelmsford was never allowed a field command again

Funny that, Durnford wasn't either.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 9:07 pm

DELETED OFF TOPIC
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 9:13 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Made me feel better. Bloody Durnford lover!!!!!!!!!
I sleep with a picture of him under my pillow. What's wrong with that? He should have won the bloody VC!
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 9:20 pm

Quote :
6pdr " LH, What were their agendas in your mind? Are you saying they each had their own agenda or do you merely mean they were too busy doing other things to notice they were about to be assaulted?

Pullienes was clean cut! "Defend" the camp! Durnford had is own? What ever they were, they didn't work together.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 9:22 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Funny that, Durnford wasn't either.

I can't imagine why ? Suspect


Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 9:47 pm

Hoping to bring the topic back on topic Exclamation

I suppose we could say we had two columns on the same Battlefield no 2 and part of no3 but for whatever reasons were working independent of each-other. By the time they realised they should have been working together it was to late.

The order question has never really concerned me.

But I do fail to understand, why more wasn't done in the name of self preservation. Isandlwana reminds me of the mistake made during the Battle of Hastings where the British ran down the hill after thinking the enemy were retiring.

I still think if the British hadn't been pushed away from the camp so far it just might have turn out different, even if it caused the Zulu's to retire and give up. Pulliene certainly has a lot to answer for, TMFH makes that quite clear. 

Anyway that's just some personal thoughts not primary. Off to bed now up early again..
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 10:08 pm

Quote :
I suppose we could say we had two columns on the same Battlefield no 2 and part of no3 but for whatever reasons were working independent of each-other. By the time they realised they should have been working together it was to late.
Salute Salute
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable ?   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 11:29 pm

Hi Ulundi.
. Placing the companies out so far wasnt ideal but due to the dead ground I dont think Poor old Pulleine had much hope no matter what he did . He couldnt have saved the camp with the troops he had at his disposal when he was facing 20 k zulu warriors .
90th.
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6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 11:38 pm

littlehand wrote:
Hoping to bring the topic back on topic Exclamation

I suppose we could say we had two columns on the same Battlefield no 2 and part of no3 but for whatever reasons were working independent of each-other.

You mean except for the fact that Durnford and Pulleine met and discussed their intended actions?

Hmmm...sounds to me like what most people call "coordination." It just so happened they didn't understand the situation.

(Let's leave aside for the moment that Glyn and Chelmsford were actually running their column...not Pulleine.)
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable ?   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyTue Nov 27, 2012 11:48 pm

Hi 6pdr.
I can tell you that LC'S booklet handed to Column commanders in Dec 1878 did stipulate that the camps were to be entrenched when they had halted for the night . Glyn did say to LC shouldnt they Laager / Entrench at Isandlwana ! . LC's reply was No , its not required , we wont be long anyway , or words to that effect !.
Cheers 90th. Salute
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Durnford was he capable.2 - Page 15 EmptyWed Nov 28, 2012 12:05 am

Quote :
I can tell you that LC'S booklet handed to Column commanders in Dec 1878
90th now we are going around in circles, we all know why that couldn't be done, the ground was to hard, and Isandlwana was just a stop over point..

Quote :
You mean except for the fact that Durnford and Pulleine met and discussed their intended actions?
Woundn't say it was a discussion as such, more Durnford telling Pulleine what his intentions were. If you read between the lines, he was infact interfering with Pulliene orders to defend the camp. But I woundn't call it a discussion by no means!
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