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 Durnfords Final Order

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Dave
Ray63
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 4:32 pm

There has been so much speculation on Durnfords final order, people quoting from newspaper articles and other
officers statments. This is the last order Durnford recieved, nothing more nothing less.

“You are to march to this Camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column. Major Bengough’s battalion is to move to Rorke’s Drift as ordered yesterday. 2/24, artillery & mounted men with the General & Colonel Glyn move off at once to attack a Zulu force about 10 miles distant.
J.N.C.
If Bengough’s battalion has crossed the River at Hands Kraal it is to move up here (Nangwana Valley).”




Cheers
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 5:16 pm

Can you state the source DB14?
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 5:34 pm

Crealock 1886 letter to Major Jekly at the war office, i have a copy of the original.


Cheers
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 5:48 pm

Thanks DB14.
And therein this particular source, lies a whole host of further questions, regarding the reliability of this man, his loyalty to Chelmsford, his motives and what was actually said and what was written, both on the 22nd January, 1879 and subsequently.
The clearest picture we have of what was actually said and when, and what was actually written on the day and in comparison to what was (perhaps not accurately) recalled later, is contained in Julian's most recent work.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 5:59 pm

Either this is the offical order sent to Col: Durnford on the 22nd Jan 1879. Or it isn't if it is I cannot see how it can be discussed in any other context.

DB can you confirm 100% that this was the order received by Col Durnford.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 6:03 pm

yes.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 6:24 pm

Thank you DB. Then this is all we need to concentrate on.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 6:31 pm

Ray63 wrote:
Either this is the offical order sent to Col: Durnford on the 22nd Jan 1879. Or it isn't if it is I cannot see how it can be discussed in any other context.

DB can you confirm 100% that this was the order received by Col Durnford.

DB is in no position to confirm this!
Ray, you seem to be treaing DB14 as the oracle and knower of all truths!
But I would recommend you read Julian's latest work. Julian has to be one of the leading historians in this field today.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 6:34 pm

Tasker. You have pointed me to Julians work not so long ago. Why disbelieve DB.when he says.

Quote :
Crealock 1886 letter to Major Jekly at the war office, i have a copy of the original.
Cheers

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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 6:43 pm

Ray63 wrote:
Tasker. You have pointed me to Julians work not so long ago. Why disbelieve DB.when he says.

Quote :
Crealock 1886 letter to Major Jekly at the war office, i have a copy of the original.
Cheers


Ray, there are many reasons to question the word of Crealock!
I would never go as far as to call him a liar as others do, but he was part of Chelmsford's staff with loyalties to him and his agenda.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 6:44 pm

Tasked, what do you think the last order stated.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 6:50 pm

Dave, none of us know for sure as were not there. And even if we had been, we may have got things confused like Crealock seems to have done. The orders were related by Chelmsford orally and then written down and transferred. Herein lies the problem. Just the innocent accidental changing of one of LC's words could/may have altered subtly the intentions that Chelmsford had. This is most likely what happened, as can so easily do in a smokey tent at 2.00am when you have just been roused from sleep and are really more interested in the next big thing - the move to intercept the main Zulu army than leaving boring routine instructions for those left behind at the camp who are not to be part of the action.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 6:58 pm

But regardless of that, DB has posted the text from the order,that Col: Durnford received on the morning of the 22nd Jan 1879. DB, as shown primary source evidence!
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 7:07 pm

Ray63 wrote:
But regardless of that, DB has posted the text from the order,that Col: Durnford received on the morning of the 22nd Jan 1879. DB, as shown primary source evidence!

Questionable, biased primary source evidence!
(Remember the Hillsborough disaster).
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 7:12 pm

Well until we get shown another order, we will just have to go with this one. Salute
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 7:22 pm

This is not the only primary source of information on this issue, Ray. Please treat yourself to Julian's latest work for Xmas, it is well worth the read and the most up to date work on this question. You will be debating from a position of weakness if you haven't read it.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 7:42 pm

Tasker. It would be the order we are interested in. If DB hasn't posted the order that was sent to Durnford, or is unsure he should say so.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 7:57 pm

Takser

What are you on about Suspect

Thats what his last order stated, thats what Julian says the last order stated, thats what was written in Crealock's
order book, thats what was written in E. Durnfords book, thats what Crealock put in a letter to the War Office.

End of Story !



Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 8:01 pm

We know DB. It is Tasker who hasn't read Julian's work... Salute
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 8:32 pm

This order was posted ages ago. And it is the one received by Durnford. Although not the one he should have been issued.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 8:39 pm

DB, I beg your pardon, you are quite correct of course, I am getting confused. Can we put this down to a senior moment?
I should have been in my pit ages ago.
This IS the order that gets Durnford off the hook.
However, even as a Durnford supporter, I find it hard not to view anything Crealock states without a degree of suspicion.
Good night all Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 8:52 pm

Quote :
DB, I beg your pardon, you are quite correct of course, I am getting confused. Can we put this down to a senior moment?

Is down to you again, not reading the comments correctly.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 8:55 pm

I admit that, I apologise, I stand corrected. Salute

And on that note, off goes the browser, I'm hitting the sack!
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptySun Dec 09, 2012 9:05 pm

Thats 4 times you were going to hit the sack!, very addictive this forum is.
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PostSubject: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptyTue Mar 19, 2013 4:12 pm

Hi everyone,this is my first post on this,or any forum,so please bear with me.

A few years ago I attended a lecture on Isandlwana by Rob Gerrard who gives tours of the battlefield.He stated that Durnford's final order had been located.It was found in a bundle of papers that had been found on the battlefield by the burial detail in May 1870 and eventually sent to the RE HQ at Chatham where it had lain unrecognised for nearly 130 years.It took over a year for an expert to unravel it from the ball of papier mache it had become.When restored it read very similar to Crealocks account but with significant differences which could have absolved D of blame.

I have searched high and low on the internet and can find no reference to this.Is there anyone out there who knows whether this is true and if it is where can one get a copy or transcript.

Cheers :
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptyTue Mar 19, 2013 6:53 pm

Hi oldmill and welcome to the forum.

You will find a wealth of reference material on here that you won't find anywhere else. You have come to the right place.

The papers you are referring to I think are those rediscovered by FWD Jackson and Julian Whybra at the RE museum, many years ago. JW is a member of this forum and posts on here frequently.

Here is a link to whet your appetite:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If i were you, I would pop durnford into the search box above. Then get your eyes down and read to your heart's content! You might even want to send Julian a PM!

Enjoy the forum mate Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptyTue Mar 19, 2013 9:11 pm

oldmill,

Sadly Rob goes into 'storyteller' mode regarding the discovery of the Durnford papers, when I challenged him, in private, on the subject he admitted the lily had been gilded somewhat for the sake of his tale.

I agree with tasker224, take a look at Julian's input on the subject.

'Jimu
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oldmill




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PostSubject: Durnford's Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptyWed Mar 20, 2013 6:04 pm

Hi kwajimu1879 and tasker224

Thanks for your prompt replies.I have trawled fairly extensively thro this and other sites which is why I went into print to try and find out what the "experts" thought.

As you say kwajimu, it appears Rob was over egging the custard a bit. Can you tell me how I can get to view the papers that Julian says he was going to publish?Still trying to find my way around a bit.

Best regards
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptyWed Mar 20, 2013 6:32 pm

Here you go mate!

The booklets - STUDIES IN THE ZULU WAR Vol 1 - are now in. Ring if you want a copy £12.50, plus p&p.

01874 613310

Bill
Bill Cainan
Curator
The Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh
Brecon

Bill is a member of the forum...
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oldmill




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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptyThu Mar 21, 2013 2:31 pm

Thanks LH.Have sent for a copy so we will all be singing from the same hymn sheet.
Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Durnfords Final Order   Durnford - Durnfords Final Order EmptyFri Mar 22, 2013 5:04 pm

You won't be sorry Salute agree
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