WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Saluting Left handed?
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyToday at 8:33 am by SRB1965

» New member
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 9:12 pm by AlanB

» CUNNINGHAM
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 7:05 pm by Julian Whybra

» Information on Zungen Nek ??????
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 12, 2020 9:46 pm by IqhaweWeb

» Rorkes drift Hotel
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 10, 2020 4:57 am by aussie inkosi

» Staff College, Camberley. Class of 1880-1
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 08, 2020 6:46 pm by Beckwith

» Pete Smith Cottage.
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 6:29 am by 90th

» Lt C. Williams KIA Hlobane
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 5:09 am by 90th

» Diamond Fields Horse in Zululand
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 4:58 am by 90th

» Buffalo Border Guard Anonymous Letter
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 11:42 pm by Julian Whybra

» Surgn. J. McGann. A. M. Dept
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 11:07 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant-Colonel William Henry Dowling Reeves Welman, 99th
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:54 pm by ADMIN

» Commander C. Lindsay.
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:42 pm by ADMIN

» Reopening National Archives
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:01 pm by Bill8183

» S.SMITH Buffalo Border Guard
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 1:48 pm by Julian Whybra

» NNC Officer List
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 1:45 pm by Ells

» One of the lesser-known stories. It took place around the same time as Isandlwana.
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 7:37 am by Julian Whybra

» N Batt 5th Bde RA
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySat Jul 04, 2020 11:52 am by Rory Reynolds

» Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 03, 2020 12:38 pm by Frank Allewell

» Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 03, 2020 6:06 am by SRB1965

» Malicious malware on this site
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 10:26 pm by intombe

» Zulu Victory - Views?
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 6:52 pm by WeekendWarrior

» Isandlwana Survivor photo's
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:56 pm by Julian Whybra

» Anyone got information on this.
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:55 pm by Julian Whybra

» Captn. H. G. Bowen, 88th Foot
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 1:18 pm by gstew88

» The South Africa Medal to HMS Forester - an anomaly?
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 01, 2020 7:41 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lieut. R. F. Dixon NMR
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 01, 2020 5:01 am by 90th

» Next month's DNW medal auction
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 30, 2020 6:45 am by 90th

» Zulu war medals on eBay
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 29, 2020 5:14 pm by SergioD

» John Basten
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 28, 2020 1:20 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lieutenant Walter Robert Higginson NNC
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 28, 2020 11:19 am by ciroferrara

» Letter home from Eshowe
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 25, 2020 2:24 pm by Blackcat

» Melvill's Revolver Cylinder
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 25, 2020 10:05 am by Drummer Boy 14

» Assistant Commissary W. Winspear Commissariat Department, present at Gingindlovu
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 22, 2020 12:05 pm by ADMIN

» Orders to laager at Isandhlwana
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 21, 2020 7:11 pm by SRB1965

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Rorke's Drift A Soldier's Story with presenter Major John Thomas
Top posters
90th
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
littlehand
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
ADMIN
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
1879graves
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
rusteze
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
John
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Frank Allewell
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
90th
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
WeekendWarrior
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
ADMIN
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Ells
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Rory Reynolds
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
John Young
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
SRB1965
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Brett Hendey
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_leftZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 BarZulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 3
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Adding to the Library
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.

 

 Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana

Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7507
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 11, 2013 6:48 am

6pd
if you look back to a topic iSandlwana the firing lines. There is a series of photos that shows the area we are talking about. The photos pointing down a valley are the area that Chelmsford had his breakfast, on the side of silutshane.
The very last shot is from the ridge at the end of the valley from where Mansell was nearly surrounded. Straight down across the plain is the deep gash of the Mangeni Gorge, to the right as you look at it is the Hlakazi where Dartnell camped on the 21st. The conical hill just to the right of the gorge is Magogo where the zulus camped and lit their fires on the night of the 21st. In the middle distance to the right is the hill the NNC skirmished over forcing around 60 zulus to cross the plain to the left and hide in the caves, from where Harford shot a couple.
Hope that puts things into perspective for you.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 11, 2013 6:58 am


Only generals who commanded the Zulu at Isandhlwana, know what they were scheming. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 11, 2013 5:11 pm

springbok9 wrote:
6pd
if you look back to a topic iSandlwana the firing lines. There is a series of photos that shows the area we are talking about. The photos pointing down a valley are the area that Chelmsford had his breakfast, on the side of silutshane.
The very last shot is from the ridge at the end of the valley from where Mansell was nearly surrounded. Straight down across the plain is the deep gash of the Mangeni Gorge, to the right as you look at it is the Hlakazi where Dartnell camped on the 21st. The conical hill just to the right of the gorge is Magogo where the zulus camped and lit their fires on the night of the 21st. In the middle distance to the right is the hill the NNC skirmished over forcing around 60 zulus to cross the plain to the left and hide in the caves, from where Harford shot a couple.
Hope that puts things into perspective for you.

Springbok,

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain. I will look for the photos/topic when I have more time. On the off chance you have it, I am using David Rattray's GUIDEBOOK TO THE ANGLO-ZULU WAR BATTLEFIELDS to try to understand this maneuvering (though Nikki said this book was a real sore point with him.) If you have access to the book there is a diagram on page 43.

Anyway, on pg. 42 there is a photo of some boys looking roughly east across the gorge of the Mangeni Falls at a circular edifice labelled "Milne's Hill" (or reference point "e".) Dartnell's Bivouac ("g") is north of the falls. My problem is reconciling the proper (Zulu) names of the landmarks with the what the Europeans call them...but it would seem that the boys must be sitting on Silutshane (or "c") and "Milne's Hill" is Magogo?

A picture really is worth a thousand words -- particularly when a third dimension such as a valley is in play -- so I will have to investigate further, but in the mean time, thanks! - 6pdr

Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 11, 2013 5:23 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 11, 2013 5:30 pm

Dartnell was he capable ? Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224

Posts : 2102
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 53
Location : North London

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 11, 2013 5:58 pm

6pdr wrote:
springbok9 wrote:
6pd
if you look back to a topic iSandlwana the firing lines. There is a series of photos that shows the area we are talking about. The photos pointing down a valley are the area that Chelmsford had his breakfast, on the side of silutshane.
The very last shot is from the ridge at the end of the valley from where Mansell was nearly surrounded. Straight down across the plain is the deep gash of the Mangeni Gorge, to the right as you look at it is the Hlakazi where Dartnell camped on the 21st. The conical hill just to the right of the gorge is Magogo where the zulus camped and lit their fires on the night of the 21st. In the middle distance to the right is the hill the NNC skirmished over forcing around 60 zulus to cross the plain to the left and hide in the caves, from where Harford shot a couple.
Hope that puts things into perspective for you.

Springbok,

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain. I will look for the photos/topic when I have more time. On the off chance you have it, I am using David Rattray's GUIDEBOOK TO THE ANGLO-ZULU WAR BATTLEFIELDS to try to understand this maneuvering (though Nikki said this book was a real sore point with him.) If you have access to the book there is a diagram on page 43.

Anyway, on pg. 42 there is a photo of some boys looking roughly east across the gorge of the Mangeni Falls at a circular edifice labelled "Milne's Hill" (or reference point "e".) Dartnell's Bivouac ("g") is north of the falls. My problem is reconciling the proper (Zulu) names of the landmarks with the what the Europeans call them...but it would seem that the boys must be sitting on Silutshane (or "c") and "Milne's Hill" is Magogo?

A picture really is worth a thousand words -- particularly when a third dimension such as a valley is in play -- so I will have to investigate further, but in the mean time, thanks! - 6pdr


Trying to get my head round it too; the only way to fully appreciate the ground is to go there with a knowledgeable guide and spend many hours taking it in.
On my to do list; once the kids have finished with uni, will have to see what is left and hope it doesn't start with a - sign!
Back to top Go down
6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 11, 2013 7:45 pm

littlehand wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thanks for the pointer littlehand. Unfortunately, without fixed reference points and north, south, east, west indicators the import of these photos is lost on me. As impi pointed out when they were posted however, one does get a sense of the vast scale of the battlefield...and also what the terrain looked like. But I can't even make out what is mean by the caves on the Phindo.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 11, 2013 9:19 pm

Sprinkbok may be able to help, as they were taken by him, on his tour.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Zulu Deception Of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 11, 2013 11:58 pm

Hi 6pdr.
On the left hand side you will see the heading ' Favourite Wb Links ' click on Jamies Site , I'm sure you will find it interesting !
Cheers 90th. Salute
Back to top Go down
Online
6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySat Jan 12, 2013 2:29 am

90th wrote:
Hi 6pdr.
On the left hand side you will see the heading ' Favourite Wb Links ' click on Jamies Site , I'm sure you will find it interesting !
Cheers 90th. Salute

Indeed, I find it invaluable! Thanks a million!
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySat Jan 12, 2013 5:40 am

Very Happy Hi 6pdr.
Happy to be of service ! . Salute
Cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
Online
Commander Howse

Commander Howse

Posts : 158
Join date : 2012-07-01

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Dartnell's Reconnaissance in force   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 7:48 pm

Dartnell found the Zulu's Flank Guards the evening before the Isandlwana attack. The reconnaissance sent word back to LC that there were about 300 Zulus near the Phindo Hills. When Dartnell and Lonsdale return they realized there was about 1500 Zulus. When the courier returned, they sent him back to the camp to tell LC that there were more than 300 and now there in the range of 1500 and to send reinforcement of 1 or 2 companies of the 24th.

Now for all the people who supports LC's decisions to rescue or support Dartnell, why did LC feel that he had to take half of # 3 column with him and leave the rest, when Dartnell only asked for 1 or 2 companies?

My answer is he did not want to miss the fight. By doing this he weaken number 3 column and put # 2 column in a tricky situation. Which resulted in the Isandlwana disaster.

Commander Howse
Back to top Go down
http://www.lepierreleathers.com
Ray63

Ray63

Posts : 708
Join date : 2012-05-05

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 9:13 pm

Dartnell, spent the night out after deciding it would be safer to stay rather than trying to get back to camp! 

What can't of defensive formation did he use. Or did he just post piques? and hope for the best?
Back to top Go down
6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 9:44 pm

Ray63 wrote:
What can't of defensive formation did he use. Or did he just post piques? and hope for the best?
From memory, they posted some sentries and slept in a big square with the command group in the center.  One side of the square got spooked (by its own shadow, more or less) and it stampeded through the middle into the other side.  That got sorted out and then it happened again by which point Maori Brown was threatening to shoot the next man who bolted etc...  In other words, according to Harford and Noggs it was amateur hour.

Anybody who thinks the Isandlwana camp was relatively under protected or unprepared should realize that if the Zulu army found the other part(s) of Chelmsford's divided force any sort of fighting would have in all likelihood yielded a more one-sided result than Isandlwana alone.
Back to top Go down
Commander Howse

Commander Howse

Posts : 158
Join date : 2012-07-01

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 9:53 pm

Ray63, They set up a Bivouac and formed two squares one formed by NNC and the other by the mounted troops. When the courier returned with the first set of messages he brought back some supplies.

Commander Howse
Back to top Go down
http://www.lepierreleathers.com
Ray63

Ray63

Posts : 708
Join date : 2012-05-05

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 9:58 pm

I thought squares had been abolished, and extended lines used.
Back to top Go down
Commander Howse

Commander Howse

Posts : 158
Join date : 2012-07-01

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 10:03 pm

Dartnell and Lonsdale's troops were mostly made up of Colonials and natives with Dartnell being from the old ways, so that is probably why the two squares were formed.

Commander Howse
Back to top Go down
http://www.lepierreleathers.com
6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptyFri Aug 30, 2013 11:06 pm

Commander Howse wrote:
Ray63, They set up a Bivouac and formed two squares one formed by NNC and the other by the mounted troops.Commander Howse
Aha!  I stand corrected.  Your description is much more accurate Cmdr. Howse and it reminds me of a telling incident.  

To that point the journalist nicknamed Noggs had been wearing a red strip of cloth to show anybody who cared that he was attached to the NNC -- and it is usually implied that's where his allegiance lay because their colonial officers had been quick to welcome him when he arrived at Helpmakaar or some equally forbidding place.  But after the second panicked stampede that night he decamped from the NNC square for the (imagined) safety of the mounted troops' square.

Pure supposition...but would you want to bet he removed the red strip of cloth too?
Back to top Go down
barry

barry

Posts : 921
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Decamping from the NNc lines   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 10:14 am

Hi 6pdr,
Yes, as did all the NNC officers. They could not handle the illdiscipline and unruliness of the NNC rank and file. During the course of the night the NNC fired on a recce party of the NMP who were detailed to go out and feel for the enemy; they fired away at least 20,000 rounds at a white cow which happened to pass in their field of vision. The cow was not hit once and coninued on its way chewing its cud.
On two other occaisions during the same night the NNC left their lines, for no reason, and rushed in for "safety" into the lines of the mounted colonials. The old saying," with friends like these, who needs enemies ", applies very well here.

regards,
barry
Back to top Go down
John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 57
Location : UK

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 10:36 am

EXTRACT FROM A LOST LEGIONARY IN SOUTH AFRICA.


"Major Dartnell concurred with him. They
decided to form two squares, our men in one,
Dartnell's in another, and we were to bivouac
there for the night.

My Colonial officers were furious. Colonial
officers are given to speaking their minds. Even
Captain Buncombe came to me and asked me if
everyone had gone mad. " What in God's name
are we to do here? "

The squares were formed. We had in our
square about 1400 natives armed as I have before
mentioned, with their complement of white officers
and non-coms., but few of the officers had brought
their rifles, and very many cartridges had been
lost while scrambling over the rocks and rough
ground during the day. I of course disarmed
the natives, who had M.H. rifles, and gave them
to the officers but the ammunition was very
short.

The natives were made to sit down in a square,
two deep, the white men being inside. Ye Gods
of war! as if Natal Kafirs in a formation two
deep would stand for a moment against a rush of
Zulus. Sick with disgust, as soon as the square
was formed, I lay down and, strange to say, fell
asleep. I had loosened my revolver belt for a
minute, meaning to buckle it again, but went to
sleep without having done so. I do not know how
long I slept when I felt myself rushed over and
trampled on. I tried to get to my feet, but was
knocked down again. I then tried to find my re-
volver, but was unable to do so. I never let go of



COMING EVENTS 123

my horse's bridle which I was holding in my hand,
and at last staggered to my feet.

The square was broken, natives rushing all
ways mixed up with plunging horses, while the
night was horrible with yells, shouts and impre-
cations. " My God/' I thought, " why am I not
assagaied?'' as half-mad natives rushed by me
jostling me with their shields. In a flash I saw it
was a false alarm. To wrench a knobkerry out of
a native's hand, and to lay about me, was the work
of a moment. My white men fought their way to
my shout and backing me up splendidly we soon
quelled the uproar and thrashed the cowardly
brutes back to their places.

To pick up my revolver and buckle the belt did
not take long, and then it was time to inquire the
cause of the row. It seems that one of the natives
had gone to sleep and had dropped his shield and
assagais, and this was enough to frighten the bold
Natal Kafirs into a stampede.

Yet with these curs I was expected to stop a rush
of the finest fighting savages in the world!

As soon as I met Lonsdale I again urged him to
return to camp even at this hour, and perhaps he
might have done so, when Major Dartnell came
over to us and informed us that he had sent an
orderly back to camp to request the General to
reinforce us. This would be worse and worse,
with a force of men barely strong enough to meet
30,000 to 40,000 Zulus, even when in laager. It
certainly was not the game to break up that force
into two parts at a distance of quite eleven miles
and just before a big fight was expected to take
place.



124 A LOST LEGIONARY IN SOUTH AFRICA

Again I sat down, sick to the very heart, but
of course I could say no more. Lonsdale was my
chief, and it was my duty to loyally back him up
and obey his orders.

About an hour afterwards, one of the horses
shook himself, and immediately the cowardly
hounds of Natal Kafirs again stampeded, but we
were ready for them this time, and thrashed them
back to their places. I then informed them that
the next man who moved would be at once shot
and that the two Zulu companies should charge
and kill off the company to which the delinquent
belonged. This threat put the fear of the Lord
into them, and for the rest of the night they sat
tight.

The weary night dragged on, no chance of
sleep, no chance of rest, as we had to watch our
wretched niggers, and I was very pleased to see the
east lighten and grow pale".

Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Zulu Deception Of Dartnell At Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 10:50 am

Hi John.
JUst wanting to clarify the officer in your report was named Duncombe , as opposed to ' Buncombe ' as you have posted .
90th.
Back to top Go down
Online
6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 2:01 pm

John wrote:
EXTRACT FROM A LOST LEGIONARY IN SOUTH AFRICA.
Yes, that's the account I was remembering...but a lot of it I regard as hyperbole, and so should everybody IMHO.  I think that Ian Knight got it exactly right when he wrote that Maori displayed "a distinct tendency towards wisdom after the fact" in his writings.  The trouble with Browne is that he is such an entertaining writer one tends to suspend one's critical facilities when reading him...like with all good fiction...but in the end I would prefer to know what "really happened." Where it comes to hard facts I only take completely seriously what men like Noggs and Charlie Harford confirm/corroborate in their accounts...but IMO Browne is useful for understanding the attitudes of the day and why Durford would have been held in such low esteem by many of his ilk.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Zulu Deception Of Dartnell At Matyana    Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 2:10 pm

Hi 6pdr.
Yes , ' Maori ' was well known as more of a storyteller than one whose writings could be taken as Gospel ! . From memory his book dealing with the Zulu War was written some 50 odd years later .
90th. You need to study mo 
Back to top Go down
Online
Guest
Guest



Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 31, 2013 4:01 pm


They are not Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana and the Zulus had a plan very simple:

1 / Attach the third column and destroy ...

They had planned to do this on 23, put they were prevented by the reconnaissance missions launched by Durnford, which caused the zulu attack the 22.

There is nothing complicated or subtle from the Zulu, it's just a unfortunate concour of circumstances for them and the British in the camp , thanks to Durnford.

2 / Zulu opposite Dartnell are not an decoy, they are just there to defend their homeland, it is a local defense force ...

Dartnell has confused the local defense force with the main army and reported his discovery to LC. (LC could make the same mistake, if it was, in the place of Dartnell)

Makes mistakes is human.

LC will join with hundreds of men and 4 guns, without prior check.

The stupidity is human

There is nothing complicated or subtle from the Zulu, it's just unfortunate concour of circumstances for the British.

The result is known

All the rest is literature and all is unfortunate concour of circumstances ...

And remember, in war as in life, the best plans are the simplest

Cheers

Pascal
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana   Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana - Page 2 Empty

Back to top Go down
 
Zulu deception of Dartnell at Matyana
Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: