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 The key of the Zulu victory ?

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The key of the  Zulu victory ? Empty
PostSubject: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyThu Mar 07, 2013 7:36 am

Hello to all

I read in "Harry Smith's Last Throw"

"For weapons the Xhosa used the throwing spear,with which he could hit a man 70 of the time at thirty paces."

??? This really looks amazing and if this is true, it must be the same with the Zulu ...

If this statistic is realistic, can you imagine what could happen to Issandhlwana ?

The isijula are the key of the Zulu victory ?

Cheers

Pascal
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John

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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyThu Mar 07, 2013 2:35 pm

Is it true that Zulu steel was superior to European steel, spear blades made from "white steel" would actually bend against soldiers uniforms. I recall reading that Bayonets were bent in some cases during use in battle.

Pascal just imagine the out come if the Zulu had an Impi of archers.

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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyThu Mar 07, 2013 5:48 pm

The blades of the weapons of the Zulu is bent on British uniforms ?

British steel bent on the skins of rhinoceros of the Zulu warriors ?

I just wanted to say that with supposedly 70% of hits, at less than 30 mêtres, the defenders could not hold without ammunitions against the deluge of isijula​​, but the defenders of Isandhlwana not lacking ammunitions to maintain the remote Zulu ...

However, perhaps at Isandhlwana, most defenders were killed by isijula ​​ ?...

It is true that with archers of England , Brittany, Burgundy or France of the second moitiée of the fifteenth century that could take up to 400 yards with light arrows ...

The Isandhlwana soldiers would have had even more problems with longbowmen ...

But in the XVI th century, the arc demode and despite successive decrees of the English sovereigns of the Tudors dinasty , firearms are preferred, because everything that is modern ... more please

Too bad, because longbows are more efficasses that firearms before the onset of MLR...

Cheers

Pascal
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyThu Mar 07, 2013 7:22 pm

Recently I read, can't remember where, that Zulu steel was crafted to an EXCEPTIONAL quality in terms of its strength and hardness. It's hardness was exceptional and it was tempered to take an extremely sharp edge.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyThu Mar 07, 2013 7:31 pm

The Battle of Agincourt The English victory over the French king’s army. Comes to mind.. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyFri Mar 08, 2013 7:03 am

LH, it's not Agincourt but Azincourt , but what relation with the isijula​​?

Ah! This really be surprised that the blades of weapons of war are fragile ...

But the topic is whether it is isijula ​​who have done the most damage to the defenders at the Battle of Isandhlwana ... With 70% of hits !

We never find testimonials ...

Cheers

Pascal
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyFri Mar 08, 2013 8:07 am

Quote :
Too bad, because longbows are more efficasses that firearms before the onset of MLR...

I was just replying to what you said above.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyFri Mar 08, 2013 8:10 am

For me 70% of hits with isisjula is impossible...
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyFri Mar 08, 2013 6:00 pm

The defenders of the last stands of Isandhlwana would they not been killed by the jet of the isijula ​​...???

Cheers

Pascal
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySat Mar 09, 2013 2:11 pm

Pascal, I understood it that the Zulu used stabbing spears, ikwa in battle, not throwing spears. Shaka had dispensed with throwing spears decades earlier.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySat Mar 09, 2013 2:13 pm

John wrote:
Is it true that Zulu steel was superior to European steel, spear blades made from "white steel" would actually bend against soldiers uniforms. I recall reading that Bayonets were bent in some cases during use in battle.

Pascal just imagine the out come if the Zulu had an Impi of archers.


Looks like you got all the above from here John, almost word for word.
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/6574/zulu-iXwa
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySat Mar 09, 2013 2:17 pm

So what's the answer Tasker. Salute
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySat Mar 09, 2013 2:23 pm

Yes.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySat Mar 09, 2013 2:31 pm

Hi gentlemen

Pascal is right, Dingane reintroduced isijula ​​before facing the Boers and the Zulus have definitely kept them after his death .

They had them in all their wars during and after the reign of Dingane .

Regards

Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySat Mar 09, 2013 2:34 pm

So there! Well say Warrior Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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90th

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PostSubject: The Key to the zulu victory    The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 6:20 am

The Zulus certainly used throwing spears during the 1879 war . Some of the last stands at Isandlwana succombed to the throwing spear , I'm sure this is mentioned by Mehlokazulu , if not , by another zulu eye witness report .
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 7:40 am

Hi Marsupial

Of course, even I am a novice in the knowledge of this war, I knew that ...

Look what our friend Tasker224 write, Yesterday at 3:11 pm (March 9, 2013)he is supposed to know this war ten times more than me ... It's amazing ...

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 9:53 am

One can throw stones, kitchen sinks if necessary.
A spear that is thrown, does not prove, or make it a "throwing spear". Any more than a thrown rifle. Stabbing spears can be thrown as can pocket knives.

(Although yes, as you all know very well, the zulu carried 2 or 3 weapons along witht heir shields, typically 2 isijula and one ikwa).

Pascal. Where are you going, what Q do you want answering or what point are you tring to make in this thread?
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 10:28 am

Hi Tasker

1/ I think now that they are the throwing of the isijula ​​that made the difference at Isandhlwana ...

2/And the shooting of Zulu firearms at very short ranges ...

3 / The fires of the British line of fire, which lasted 120 mm, did not have to create many casualties among the Zulu ...

4/That the Zulus have suffered most of their losses when they were at short-range of theBritish infantry fire not in face of the line of fire...

5/Because when the melee started, the Zulus are inferior in melee against the British infantry ...

6/And I bet most of the defenders were not killed in close combat ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 10:59 am

Pascal

With regards your last comment, if you read Wilson Black and others you will see that large clumps of the 24th died together, piles of 70, 60, 40, and 20, and most mixed up with Zulu dead showing how many did die at close quater fighting.




Cheers
DB.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 11:10 am

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Pascal

With regards your last comment, if you read Wilson Black and others you will see that large clumps of the 24th died together, piles of 70, 60, 40, and 20, and most mixed up with Zulu dead showing how many did die at close quater fighting.

Cheers
DB.

But it's possible the bodies were dragged into these positions by the zulus.?
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 11:29 am

In addition, you can not tell the difference between a wound inflicted by a isijula ​​of that imposed by a ikwla ...DB ,there was no autopsy of the bodies of the British soldiers...

Especially the Zulu warriors get their isijula ​​planted in the bodies of the British soldiers before returning to Ulundi ...

I'm more sure it is at short-range and with isijula that the Zulus​​ triumphing...

Cheers

Pascal
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 12:25 pm

I think the KEY to the Zulu victory at iSandlwana was overwhelming weight of numbers versus a lack of preparation and complacency on the part of the camp defenders; not the throwing spear.
The Zulu used the same tactics and weapons at all the subsequent battles of the AZW.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 12:31 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Pascal

With regards your last comment, if you read Wilson Black and others you will see that large clumps of the 24th died together, piles of 70, 60, 40, and 20, and most mixed up with Zulu dead showing how many did die at close quater fighting.




Cheers
DB.

As 90th pointed out, these last pockets/squares of resistance were very stubborn and the Zulu were being repelled at close quarters by the bayonet. As a result, the Zulus overwhelmed the little squares by keeping their distance and throwing their spears at them, picking off the men of the 24th at throwing range.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 1:04 pm

Tasker wrote:

As 90th pointed out, these last pockets/squares of resistance were very stubborn and the Zulu were being repelled at close quarters by the bayonet. As a result, the Zulus overwhelmed the little squares by keeping their distance and throwing their spears at them, picking off the men of the 24th at throwing range.

??? But that is exactly what I need to back without the help of my dear Gary...

Tasker wrote:

I think the KEY to the Zulu victory at iSandlwana was overwhelming weight of numbers versus a lack of preparation and complacency on the part of the camp defenders; not the throwing spear.
The Zulu used the same tactics and weapons at all the subsequent battles of the AZW.

The use of isisjula is decisive on the British imperial infantry, if not cut off as RD or Kambula. Or if it is not too numerous as to Gingindlovu and Ulundi ...On Intombi Drift and Hlobane the isisjula had to make a carnage ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 1:19 pm

Congratulations Pascal

The isijula ​​can be very useful only against an exposed opponent and if there are many (2 or 3 isijula per warrior without a fire weapon) as at Isandhlwana .

A Gingindlovu and Ulundi virtually no warrior came close enough to launch one isijula ​​.

Cheers

Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 1:24 pm

There is only one person, agree with me ???
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 5:39 pm

By the time the Zulu were using the throwing spear, the rout at iSandlwana was very much in its final stages.
The fact that the Zulus were in throwing range clearly illustrates that the battle was lost.
Surely if the Zulu are close enouth to throw or stab, the battle is lost.
Simply contrast the situation to RD or Ulundi, Pascal.

How many Imperial soldiers were killed at Ulundi by an isijula? Or an ikwa?
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptySun Mar 10, 2013 6:46 pm

Pascal can you post a source which states the use of the isijula at Isandlwana.

This is from Interview with Mehlokazulu Kasihayo (The Battle Of Isandlwana) 

Q: Did the two compaines of men that died fixed their bayonets ?

A: Yes. The men took up new positions at the rear. Some threw their assegais, others shot at them to advoid their bayonets, but those who dared to approched too closely were stabbed in the throat or stomach.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyMon Mar 11, 2013 7:22 am

Tasker wrote (in red):

By the time the Zulu were using the throwing spear, the rout at iSandlwana was very much in its final stages.

But that the defenders are in rout or not, it does not change, what matters is that it was within range of the isijula​​.

The fact that the Zulus were in throwing range clearly illustrates that the battle was lost.

Lost for an exposed opponent as at Isandhlwana .

Lost pour un opponent with numbers too weak as at Isandhlwana.

A Gingindlovu and Ulundi virtually no warrior came close enough to launch one isijula ​​.

Surely if the Zulu are close enouth to throw or stab, the battle is lost.
Simply contrast the situation to RD or Ulundi, Pascal.


Not necessarily ... In melee, the Zulus are disadvantaged in the face of bayonets.

How many Imperial soldiers were killed at Ulundi by an isijula? Or an ikwa?


In my opinion, the majority of defenders killed, have not been in combat, and I'm sure the jet of isijula ​​was decisive for the 3 victory of the Zulu,Isandhlwana, on the Itombi Drift and Hlobane .

LH wrote (in orange):

Can you post a Pascal source Which states the use of the isijula ​​at Isandlwana.


Anything! Everyone knows that Dingane reintroduced isisjula and Zulu warriors have always used until 1906, except when they had firearms.


This is from Interview with Mehlokazulu Kasihayo (The Battle Of Isandlwana)

Q: Did the two compaines of men that died fixed their bayonets ?

A: Yes. The men took up new positions at the rear. Some threw their assegais, others shot at them to advoid their bayonets, but those who dared to approched too closely were stabbed in the throat or stomach.


"Some threw Their assegais" Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy he speaks of Isijula​​, Mehlokazulu Kasihayo used a generic term to designate Isijula and other types of throwing Zulu spears (On a another topic ,he was well explained that ikwa are too unbalanced to beings launched)

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyMon Mar 11, 2013 10:07 pm

tasker224 wrote:
I think the KEY to the Zulu victory at iSandlwana was overwhelming weight of numbers versus a lack of preparation and complacency on the part of the camp defenders; not the throwing spear.
The Zulu used the same tactics and weapons at all the subsequent battles of the AZW.


Correct Salute
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyTue Mar 12, 2013 6:55 am

For the tactical level, without isijula ​​and firearms, the losses would have been much higher for the Zulu...
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyTue Mar 12, 2013 8:49 am

How!!!! scratch
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyTue Mar 12, 2013 8:55 am

Yes! I bet most of the defenders of the camp were not killed in corps à corps, but from at little distance by isisjula and shots of firearms...

Contrary to what might have happened on the Intombi Drift ... For there, there was actually an effect of surprise ...
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyTue Mar 12, 2013 3:26 pm

Personal opinion. There are many accounts that saw men being stabbed. Up close and personal.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyTue Mar 12, 2013 4:10 pm

In my opinion this is not the majority, when we know the dextéritée of the British infantry in combat with the bayonet, without forgetting that the British have never had bayonets as long as that time ...

Shoulder against shoulder, the British infantry are unaffordable in close combat by Zulu warriors ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyTue Mar 12, 2013 5:29 pm

By the time the Zulu were mopping up the last of the 24th defenders, these brave soldiers were forming squares or fighting back to back with the bayonet.
The MH with fixed bayonet was able to outreach the Zulu stabbing spear; the Zulu feared the bayonet. (Very much more than a MH round).
Therefore, as Mehlokazulu stated, Zulus who got too close were slain. He also states that during the mopping up of the last few 24th men, the Zulu resorted to staying back out of bayonet range and throwing their assegais at the last of the little squares and defenders standing back to back. Eventually over-powering the defenders in this manner.
This is one recorded instance of the Zulu warriors throwing their spears.
Anotther instance of spears being thrown that I recall, was against Younghusband's company up on the plateau.

Thrown spears were a useful tool in these mopping up actions which undoubtedly reduced Zulu casualties by a few dozen perhaps.
Key to the victory of iSandlwana?
No.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyTue Mar 12, 2013 5:40 pm

No, it's just a key to their victory and in my opinion this is the main !
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyTue Mar 12, 2013 8:11 pm

The Anatomy of the Zulu Army Ian Knight.

"The throwing spear's effectiveness was dictated almost entirely by range. Over short distances it could be hurled with considerable accuracy and 'astonishing force', according to [Nathaniel] Isaacs, who was on the receiving end of one, and would have had sufficient velocity to transfix a human torso. Beyond a range of thirty yards or so , however, the drag on the shaft caused it to slow down and waver in flight, with a dramatic decrease in accuracy and velocity".

A spear throwing contest organised by Colonel Wood in 1879 for "the diversion of his troops". The Colonel was "disappointed to note that 'the first prize [was] won by a Hottentot about 5 feet in height, who propelled an assegai 70 yards, the second man being a Colonial born Englishman, while no Zulu threw an assegai farther than 50 yards' ".
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyWed Mar 13, 2013 7:04 am

What mattered was to stay away from the wall of bayonets of the last stands...
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyWed Mar 13, 2013 7:49 am

There were no last stands, just pockets of resistance.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyWed Mar 13, 2013 8:25 am

John wrote in yellow: There Were No last stands

What ? At Isandhlwana, there was no last stand ?
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyWed Mar 13, 2013 4:55 pm

John wrote:
There were no last stands, just pockets of resistance.

Pascal, it is just semantics that are confusing John here.
Small groups of men fighting to the end, pockets of resistance, last stands, perhaps John will enlighten us by defining the exact meaning of each?
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyWed Mar 13, 2013 4:58 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
No, it's just a key to their victory and in my opinion this is the main !

Pascal, perhaps your use of the word "key" is being mis-translated in this thread?

Are you aware that you are saying that the isijula was the main reason - key - to the Zulu victory?

Or are you trying to explain that the isijula just had a part to play in the victory?
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyWed Mar 13, 2013 5:52 pm

the isijula ​​was the main reason - key - to the Zulu victory or the isijula ​​just had a hand to play in the victory?

That is the question!

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyWed Mar 13, 2013 7:02 pm

It was a weapon, so it had its part to play. As did the pocket knifes used near the end of the Battle.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyThu Mar 14, 2013 7:21 am

This is a true weapon of war, not a utensil such as the penknives of some of the defenders of the camp.

It is they and the zulu firearms that have knocked out a maximun of the defenders when they were unaffordable in melee.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyThu Mar 14, 2013 6:27 pm

old historian2 wrote:
It was a weapon, so it had its part to play. As did the pocket knifes used near the end of the Battle.

A good statement by OH2.

"It was a weapon" (That is all it was).

The weapon is useless, unless it has a man to wield it.

IMO Pascal, the thrown assegai had a very, very small part to play in the Zulu victory on 22/1/1879. Certainly was not key.
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PostSubject: Re: The key of the Zulu victory ?   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyThu Mar 14, 2013 7:08 pm

Unless it can be confirmed that, everyone thrown was a hit. And how many of their own men stood the chance of being hit.
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PostSubject: The key of the zulu victory   The key of the  Zulu victory ? EmptyFri Mar 15, 2013 12:14 am

For what it's worth I dont see the throwing spear as a major key in the battle . It was certainly a major key in cleaning up the last pockets of resistance , but that's all , the major damage was already done when they were fighting hand to hand amongst each other .
It would have been common for one or two troops to have been seperated from a larger numerical group , these would've been killed by a rush of numbers where the Stabbing spears would've been used with obvious effect .
Cheers 90th.
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