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Chard1879
impi
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littlehand
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kwajimu1879
horsefixer
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horsefixer




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PostSubject: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySat Jul 13, 2013 2:23 pm

I read that there were 10 survivors from Isandlwana. I have these 6
Private. Davis 1/24th
Private. Parry 1/24th
Private. Power 1/24th
Bandsman Wilson
Bandsman Bickley
Private Williams

Can anyone tell me who the other 4 were?
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySat Jul 13, 2013 4:02 pm

Horsefixer,

No. 1 Squadron Mounted Infantry

Cpl. John McCan
Pte. Henry Davis
Pte. William Parry
Pte. John Power

Rocket Battery

Pte. Hector Grant
Pte. William Johnson
Pte. James Trainer

'B' Company

Pte. Edmund Wilson

'D' Company

Pte. John Williams

'F' Company

Pte. James Bickley

'Jimu
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horsefixer




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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySat Jul 13, 2013 4:56 pm

Brilliant! Thanks 'jimu. How did they do the roll call after? Did someone literally stand there and read out the names of 575 missing men?
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySat Jul 13, 2013 6:41 pm

Horsefixer,

I doubt it very much as the Pay & Muster Rolls were lost at Isandlwana.

'Jimu
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horsefixer




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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySat Jul 13, 2013 11:28 pm

Aha! Thanks 'jimu, that was very helpful.
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 12:22 am

Hi Horsefixer

Don't forget the 21 officers (including Melvill & Coghill) of the 24th who fell in addition to 575 men.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 1:02 am

2nd/24th Pte Frederick EVANS attached to the Mounted Infantry.
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 9:03 am

Littlehand,

littlehand wrote:
2nd/24th Pte Frederick EVANS attached to the Mounted Infantry.

Should that be Private Edward Evans, of the 2nd Battn, 3rd (East Kent) Regiment?

2nd/24th supplied men to No. 2 Squadron, Mounted Infantry, which was attached to Pearson's Column.

'Jimu
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John

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 9:50 am

No Jim it's Frederick Evans 2nd24th
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 10:17 am

John,

Just to clarify are you referring to Private 25th Brigade/953 Frederick Evans?

'Jimu
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 11:01 am

Jim possibly the same number.
I was under the impression Frederick Evans was with H Company 2nd/24th. He was placeed on Col Bournes roll, thought to have been one of the defenders, but he rode on to warn others.

Happy to be corrected!
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 11:16 am

Littlehand,

Private 25B./953 Frederick Evans, H Company 2nd/24th was a Rorke's Drift defender.

Given the Jenkins debate, Frederick Evans appears on 'Chard' Roll; the Frank Bourne Roll and the Dunbar Roll as a defender. He was also presented with the Bible.

As I stated above the 2nd/24th only supplied their mounted infantrymen to No. 2 Squadron Mounted Infantry.

Despite what has been written on this site in previous posts, and in at least two modern works, I can find no evidence that Frederick Evans could possibly have been a mounted infantryman at Isandlwana.

'Jimu

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 11:24 am

Ah! I will have to check, but I think there was some debate on this. Evans didn't say at RD. Will get back later on.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 11:35 am

Ian Knight wrote:
Pte. 25B/953 Frederick Evans, who was serving with the Mounted Infantry and was a survivor of iSandlwana, received the Mayoral address despite very clear indications that, although he had ridden past the post at Rorke’s Drift and stopped to warn the garrison, he had not stayed to assist in the defence. 

This from Ian Knights artical in the David Jenkins discussion!
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 11:46 am

Impi,

Read what I wrote:

kwajimu1879 wrote:
Despite what has been written on this site in previous posts, and in at least two modern works, I can find no evidence that Frederick Evans could possibly have been a mounted infantryman at Isandlwana.

Considering you were one of those banging on about rolls before over Jenkins, Frederick Evans is on all three rolls, now are you casting doubt on those rolls?

I take it you have examined the Pay & Muster Roll of the 80th Regiment? If you haven't you will not know what I'm referring to.

'Jimu
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 11:52 am

Not a case of banging on, Ian Knight has obviously done his research.
Perhaps you should look for it instead of expecting others to do it for you.

The David Jenkins situation had not been researched, that's why JW is undertaking a new publication, that will show correct research?
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 1:03 pm

Impi. I do beleive what you say was the opinion of Norman Holme’s and Julian Whybra not Ian Knight. Either way Evans was not a RD.

Some members don't like change, or willing to admit thier wrong?
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 2:35 pm

Chard1879,

If I were wrong I would willingly admit it.

However, once again Impi refuses to answer a direct question I have put to him.

The problem is one person writes something without the research, another copies what the first person has written, and before long it becomes established as fact, on the grounds of so-and-so says this and so it must be right.

In this case it couldn't be further from the truth.

'Jimu
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 9:50 pm

kwajimu1879 wrote:
Impi,

Read what I wrote:

kwajimu1879 wrote:
Despite what has been written on this site in previous posts, and in at least two modern works, I can find no evidence that Frederick Evans could possibly have been a mounted infantryman at Isandlwana.

Considering you were one of those banging on about rolls before over Jenkins, Frederick Evans is on all three rolls, now are you casting doubt on those rolls?

I take it you have examined the Pay & Muster Roll of the 80th Regiment?  If you haven't you will not know what I'm referring to.

'Jimu

I have not examined the pay & muster rolls. If that's the direct question you refer to! Have you?
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 10:22 pm

At time of posting I thought this was common knowledge!
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 10:30 pm

Impi,

Yes I'm afraid I have, which is why I am aware that there were no members of the 2nd/24th in No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry.  I have also looked at 'Baner ac Amserau Cymru' a Welsh language newspaper which is available on-line through the British Library.  On Wednesday, 16th April 1879 the newspaper reproduces a letter describing the flight from Isandula [sic] by Edward Evans.

In his booklet 'England's Sons' listed in Section M. European Survivors' Accounts & Cross-references: Primary Sources, Julian Whybra lists as No. 4. 45/726 Private Edward EVANS 2nd battalion, 3rd Regiment.

Julian cites another Welsh newspaper 'The Montgomeryshire Express' of 1st April 1879, in which Edward Evans letter home dated 3rd February 1879 was published, although Julian doesn't record whether it was published in English or Welsh.

Evans' role is also recounted in Edward McToy's 'A Brief History of the 13th Regiment (PALI) in South Africa During the Transvaal and Zulu Difficulties 1877-8-9', as he escaped from Isandlwana in company with Private Daniel Whelan of 1st/13th.

'Jimu
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impi

impi


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 10:53 pm

Perhaps you should up-date your research capabilities. And the answer to your other question, no i don't have any faith in the rolls, to many ccoks as they same.
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 11:13 pm

Impi,

Perhaps you should do your own research instead of relying on peoples' assumptions.

Get back to me if you can counter my findings with some proven evidence.

'Jimu

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptySun Jul 14, 2013 11:25 pm

This from Norman Holme.

"25B/953 Private Frederick Evans (Mounted Infantry), ‘H’ Company. At the time of my original research it proved impossible to identify this individual, who was one of ten soldiers named Evans then serving in the 2nd Battalion. He is named in the ‘Chard’ roll and also in Bourne’s amended roll but no mention is made of his service number or the initial of his first name. Fortunately the list signed by Major Dunbar includes a ‘Frederick Evans’ and it therefore became possible to establish the correct identity of this man. Evans is mentioned in a number of statements written by men present at the defence of Rorke’s Drift. Corporal Lyons and Private Waters refer to him, and a letter by Private Hitch (page 136 The Red Soldier by Frank Emery) contains the following: “The first news I had of what had happened at Isandlwana was when one of the mounted infantry, named Evans, came galloping up to the mission house, and said that a part of the camp across the river had been destroyed by the Zulus, that two guns had been taken as well as all the ammunition, and that the enemy were advancing in force to attack Rorke’s Drift’’. Evans himself, in a letter written in Welsh to his wife, then living at Tonypandy, South Wales, mentions that he ‘was at Rorke’s Drift’ but does not elaborate further on the action. It is unusual that a soldier who had not only survived the annihilation of his comrades at Isandlwana, but had also ridden to warn the garrison at Rorke’s Drift and then remained to assist in the defence, should make so brief a mention of his experiences. In his letter to Queen Victoria, Lieutenant Chard states, ‘A letter describing what had happened (at Isandlwana) had been sent by Bromhead, by two men of the Mounted Infantry, who had arrived fugitives from Isandlwana, to the Officer Commanding at Helpmakaar.’ Chard continues, ‘Several fugitives from the Camp arrived, and tried to impress upon us the madness of an attempt to defend the place. They proved the truth of their belief in what they said, by leaving us to our fate, and in the state of mind they were in, I think our little garrison was as well without them. As far as I know, but one of the fugitives remained with us - Lieutenant Adendorff whom I have before mentioned.’ Despite the fact that Evans was one of the men who carried the news of Isandlwana to Rorke’s Drift, as confirmed by the three eye-witnesses, there is no mention whatsoever of his participation in the defence, and in view of Lieutenant Chard’s comments, I consider that there is insufficient evidence to support the inclusion of Evans in the Rorke’s Drift roll of defenders. The fact that Evans received a copy of the Address from the Mayor of Durban does not, in any way, prove his presence at the battle."
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jul 15, 2013 12:04 am

There were no members of 2nd/24th attached to the MI first in the 3rd Column. I think your find that Holme's made a mistake and acknowledged that error. Impi there is more evivdence that puts Evans at RD than there is Jenkins.

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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jul 15, 2013 12:21 am

Littlehand,

I am fully aware of the late Norman Holme's comment, in my considered opinion it is an erroneous assumption.

One of the reasons I asked Impi if he had examined the Pay & Muster Rolls of 80th Regiment is because they contain the details of No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry, I can assure you there are no members of the 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment included in that document.

No.1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry was made up from men from 2nd/3rd; 1st/13th; 1st/24th & 80th Regiments, plus detached regular cavalry specialists.

No. 2 Squadron, Mounted Infantry was made up from men from 2nd/24th; 88th; 90th & 99th Regiments, plus detached regular cavalry specialists.

Norman Holme wrote:
Evans himself, in a letter written in Welsh to his wife, then living at Tonypandy, South Wales, mentions that he ‘was at Rorke’s Drift’ but does not elaborate further on the action.

Holme does not cite the source of this comment so I cannot cross-reference with the letter of Edward Evans which appeared in 'Baner ac Amerau Cymru' to see if they are one and the same.

Since Norman Holme made that comment in 'The Noble 24th', it appears a number of authors - at least three to my knowledge - have accepted his assumption that the Mounted Infantryman named Evans was Frederick Evans of the 2nd/24th without question.  However based on my own research I cannot accept his findings as fact.  If Frederick Evans had indeed been a 2nd/24th Mounted Infantryman he would have been in action at Nyezane, on 22nd January 1879.  Putting him nowhere near to Isandlwana.

As I have mentioned previously in this thread three rolls put Frederick Evans at Rorke's Drift.  Julian Whybra in 'England's Sons' has Private 25B/953 Frederick Evans as 'POSSIBLE' hospital patient.

'Jimu
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jul 15, 2013 12:29 am

You didn't need to do your own research. See my post above! Holmes admitted his mistake. And you will not find any 2nd/24th in the MI with no 3 Column.

It's the rolls that have confused, the issue as to who was and not at RD.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jul 15, 2013 12:43 am

Jim' if Evan's was only on one of the RD rolls, would you accept him as being an RD defender?
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jul 15, 2013 7:55 am

CTSG,

Obviously Norman Holme's admission isn't common knowledge, otherwise you would not have certain authors mentioning Frederick Evans as being a Mounted Infantryman within the Jenkins' debate.

As to not doing my own research, how else do you feel I can convince those on this forum who are dismiss my findings out of hand because of a misguided belief those same authors cannot be wrong?

John,

Which Evans are you referring to? The one who was there - Frederick 2nd/24th, or the other one who warned the post - Edward 2nd/3rd? Bearing in mind the subject of Horsefixer's original question relates to the Isandlwana survivors of 24th Regiment

'Jimu
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John

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jul 15, 2013 8:18 am

Frederick
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jul 15, 2013 9:48 pm

John,

John wrote:
Jim' if Evan's was only on one of the RD rolls, would you accept him as being an RD defender?

In answer to your query if there were compelling evidence to support it I would.

'Jimu
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jul 15, 2013 9:57 pm

Good Answer:Salute: 
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jul 15, 2013 10:27 pm

It's a personal preference. If someone can prove that an individual was at RD, then he or she should show using all available evidence how they came to that conclusion. If there is a counter argument, then that should be considered before being allowed to add that individual.
I sometimes think that Holmes is being used like Durnford, is respect that Holmes made mistakes when examining the rolls. He’s not alive to respond to that!
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyTue Jul 16, 2013 9:26 pm

Can anyone confirm, is this the Pte Evans in-question.

"From Edward Evans of Llawrglyn, near Llanidloes who escaped from Isandula to his mother and brother.

3 February 1879.

You know nothing of the horrors of war and if I was to write from now till Christmas, I could never explain half what I have seen or how I was saved. Myself and two more comrades rode our horses through the centre of their line of fire and hundreds of guns pointing at us; but I can assure you it was a ride for life. Many of our noble heroes that escaped from the hands of the enemy lost their lives in crossing the Buffalo River. Thank God for learning me to swim. My horse fell in the water and both of us went down together and both swam out again---but a very hard struggle. I had to let go my rifle and ammunition and everything I had"
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John

John


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyTue Jul 16, 2013 9:42 pm

Sorry gent's yet again I'm confused which Evans are we saying escaped from Isandlwana and fought at RD. And which regiment was he in?
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impi

impi


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyTue Jul 16, 2013 10:01 pm

Jim, except my apologies, I was wrong, and you was correct.Salute 

Private Edward EVANS 2nd battalion, 3rd Regiment. Is the one that escaped from Isandlwana stopped at RD and rode on.

Private 25B./953 Frederick Evans, H Company 2nd/24th was at Rorke's Drift.
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyTue Jul 16, 2013 10:29 pm

Impi,

No worries, and your apology accepted.

It doesn't help when inaccurate statements are made by those who should know better elsewhere on the forum.

Lets hope they have posts amended, to save their blushes.

Enough said.

Regards,

'Jimu

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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 11:30 am

25B 953 Pte. Frederick Evans

Norman Holme concluded mistakenly that this H coy 2/24th man was the soldier “of the Mounted Infantry, named Evans” who escaped from Isandhlwana and rode to warn the garrison at the Drift. This was not so since Frederick Evans was never in the M.I. He has confused him with 45 726 Pte. Edward Evans 2/3rd Regt. who was in the M.I., did escape from Isandhlwana, and left an account of his escape in which he states that he rode to warn the Drift. This was referred to in an article in 1990 (and later), and acknowledged by Holme without revising his text.
Frederick Evans was not present at Isandhlwana.
The name “Pte. Evans H coy” did however appear in the ‘Chard’ Roll of Rorke’s Drift Defenders, in Bourne’s Amended Roll, and “Frederick Evans” appeared in Dunbar’s Roll by dint of which he received a copy of the Address by the Mayor of Durban. Here Holme has confused Frederick with 25B/954 Pte. Thomas Evans of H coy 2/24th who was a Defender.
Thus Holme confused Frederick Evans twice, once with Edward Evans from Isandhlwana and the second time with Thomas Evans, a RD defender. Frederick Evans is not included in the rolls of defenders in Holme’s books (and from all other works copying his research) but, on the basis of receiving the Mayor of Durban's address, he just might indeed have been present at Rorke’s Drift. If he were so, it is likely that he was a hospital patient, as were most of those 2/24th men not from B coy who were not otherwise present for other legitimate reasons. For that reason I have listed him as a 'possible defender' in England's Sons until such time as it can be proved one way or another. No new evidence has come to light and he remains a possible.
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kopie




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PostSubject: Re: 24th survivors   24th survivors EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 7:15 pm

Were 953 Frederick Evans and 954 Thomas Evans related in any way? Brothers, cousins, mates?
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