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PostSubject: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 8:44 am

Hello to All

With historians of the Zulu War, a cat would not find her little ...

1 - after you,the Zulu regiment umHlanga was yes or no to Isandhlwana?
2 - after you, the Zulu regiment Mbubi was yes or no to Isandhlwana?
3 - after you, the Zulu regiment amaShutu was yes or no to Isandhlwana?
4 - after you, the Zulu regiment amaKwenkwe was yes or no to Isandhlwana?
5 - after you,the Zulu regiment isiBabule was yes or no to Isandhlwana and Rorcke's Drift?

soon

Pascal
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 8:58 am

1) No
2) Yes
3) No
4) No
5) No

RD
uThulwana
iNdlundlo
uDloko
iNdluyengwe

Thats as close as I can get Im afraid
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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 10:07 am

This is your Mr. version and it is your right ...

Very well and in this case, or the Zulu regiments were named: amaShutu, Umhlanga, amaKwenkwe isiBabule were during the war,and what battles they participated or rather, what they have served, as they existed well and seems to have participated has no battles ...
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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 9:55 am

springbok9

For the Mbubi, they are only mentioned by IK.

But because umSikaba , Nkonkone, uMtulisazwi and unQakamatye regiments were incorporated into other regiments, one can be tempted, in this light, to consider the inclusion of such regiments as the Mbubi, amaShutu, amaKwenke and isiBabule, for similar reasons.

On the other hand, it may be reluctant to include these regiments within any formal list without the reinforce-ment of any first primary (Zulu) or secondary sources...

D.R.Morris's(and others')view that drafts of the umHlanga( Morris,op.cit.,pp.368-370) fought alongside the umCijo nowhere substantiated by a primary source.

(Ransford,op.cit.,p.244.Although Zabange's account does mention the umHlanga,there are serious doubts as to the account's authenticity ).

Ramsford ,Oliver ,' The Cloth',Blackwood's Magazine,vol .308 Jul-Dec 1970,pp.241-247.

The account is described as spurious because Ransford claimed to have found the narrative in an old helmet-case which had belonged to a relative on the staff of the British Resident in Zululand.

In parts there are passages and phrases wich look as if they have been lifted from genuise narratives,on the other hand the narrative as a whole is quite unlike any other genuise account.

In the genuise accounts the narrative is restricted to one man's very limited experience of the battle,like that of a man in crowd.

Zabange however has been everywhere and seen everything,despite even in 1879 being a old man.

Ransford state that " apart from occasional editing,modernisation of spelling and the omission of a few irrelevancies"he has copied the narrative exactly as it was set down originally.

The question is whether in the editing Ransford eked out the narrative with passages suggested by D.R.Morris's book"The Washing of the Spears ",London 1965.

The way the narrative runs is reminiscent in place of Morris's style ,wording ,and version of events.

However it must be said that Parr in his book ,published in 1880,includes the umHlanga in the impi although his source is not given.

(Parr,Captain Henry Hallam,"A sketch of the Kafir and Zulu Wars:Guadana to Isandhlwana ",London 1880,pp.199 and 215.)

Parr had been out with LC on the fateful morning of 22nd January, and apart from interviewing survivors on the British side,obviously gleaned much valuable information from Zulus during and after the remainder of the war.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 10:40 am

Pascal
There is no evidence to substantiate the presence of uMhlanga at iSandlwana apart from a mention by Parr/Morris that they had been grafted onto an old Chaka regiment. According to his sketch drawing they acted as part of the Uve regiment, he would obviously have got that info from some where. But would you regard the Uve as: " a regiment that had all but disappeared, being represented by a few old men of 78 to 80."
I would suggest that the Uve was a lot more than that. If so then there is a definite discrepancy in Hallam Parrs summation.
If you accept that, then which part of the synopsis do you accept, that they were drafted onto a bunch of old age pensioners or they were drafted onto the Uve. If the second then sure, they could have been part of the left horn or left centre. But there again no other source mentions them in that context. At least not to my knowledge. As for Morris although its often said to his detriment that he wrote TWOTS from Berlin, he did spend time in Natal. Also he did visit Fugitives drift to see the M and C graves and also to see the 'coffin' rock. Its really easy then to speculate that he would, seeing as he would have had to cross his farm, met up with Sighart Bourquin. Again although speculative, its highly possible that SB was the source of information for Morris.
Much as he was the source of much information and motivation for Ian Knight, and as the document you quote is by Ian could we say that the potential font for the placing of the uMhlanga comes from SB?

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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:05 pm

Mate

But the regiment uVe is the youngest sent to fight in the battle of Isandhlwana with 650 warriors around 23 years ...

He was at the center of the left horn with to his left, 500 warriors of the uThulwana and to his right, 5600 warriors of the iNgobamakhosi .. .

After IK , at Isandhlwana, there were imBubi but not the regiment called Umhlanga ...Question 

This regiment is part of the body called Mbelebele with a regiment known also as Mbelebele (whose warriors had at minimum 78 years, also they should not present at Isandhlwana ...)

So the bodhttps://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_question.gify called Mbelebele was only represented by the regiment called Umhlanga ...

In general,for example by JW , it is accepted that the warriors of the regiment Umhlanga had 28 years and were attached to the corp Umcityu (regiments Umkandampemvu + Unqakamatye + Umtulisazwi).

So they were in the chest, but at the left or the right of Umcityu corps Question 

And where were the sources Sighart Bourquin Question 

What is obscure error for me is that the regiments incorporated in some corps or regiments present at Isandhlwana, are considered present at Isandhlwana, by inference, and other regiments, also incorporated in some corps or regiments present at Isandhlwana, are not considered to present Isandhlwana scratch 

You must explain to me this, this is too much for me ...

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:11 pm

Mate

I post my answer again, because there is a parasite that is invited ...

But the regiment uVe is the youngest sent to fight in the battle of Isandhlwana with 650 warriors around 23 years ...

He was at the center of the left horn with to his left, 500 warriors of the uThulwana and to his right, 5600 warriors of the iNgobamakhosi .. .

After IK , at Isandhlwana, there were imBubi but not the regiment called Umhlanga ...Question 


This regiment is part of the body called Mbelebele with a regiment known also as Mbelebele (whose warriors had at minimum 78 years, also they should not present at Isandhlwana ...)

So the corps called Mbelebele was only represented by the regiment called Umhlanga ...

In general,for example by JW , it is accepted that the warriors of the regiment Umhlanga had 28 years and were attached to the corp Umcityu (regiments Umkandampemvu + Unqakamatye + Umtulisazwi).

So they were in the chest, but at the left or the right of Umcityu corps Question 

And where were the sources Sighart Bourquin Question 

What is obscure error for me is that the regiments incorporated in some corps or regiments present at Isandhlwana, are considered present at Isandhlwana, by inference, and other regiments, also incorporated in some corps or regiments present at Isandhlwana, are not considered to present Isandhlwana scratch

You must explain to me this, this is too much for me ...

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:13 pm

Pascal
Hallam Parr very very clearly has them with the Uve.
It depends who you read as to the answer you get read Hallam Parr, his take is different from SB, Morris Ian Knight etc. SB lived his life at Fugitives Drift, his old house is now part of the guest house. He knew intimatly relatives of suvivors and the history of the area. Thats where he sourced his information. Hallam Parr was on the ground and spoke to a lot of people that where there, bottom line is you dont and will never really know. Frustrating I know but thats life.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:33 pm

I do not have your knowledge, once again I'll trust you,JW will be unhappy, therefore also after you ,the 1400 warriors of the regiment Umhlanga (or 1000 warriors after some ), reinforce the 650 warriors of the regiment uVe Question 

For shields it seems to be the same as the indluyengwe regiment , but others say that the white spot was up Question 

I'm going crazy with all its contradictions Sad Sad Mad Mad 

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:37 pm

Pascal
A famous man once said of isandlwana that it was an enigma wrapped in a mystery wrapped in a triple layer of contradiction.

I think it was an understatement.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:44 pm

Yes alas, and it will go the less you know ...

I meant to Isandhlwana with young white British tourists and a little wargamers , a few days ago, they had never heard of this battle, is it possible:x 
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: We need to know once and for all if .....   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:55 pm

Pascal there would probably be young white British tourists who havent heard of D- Day ! , just as I'm sure there are young white Australians who have probably never heard of The Western Front of WW1 , and even Gallipoli if thats possible !. No 
90th
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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 3:33 pm

What misery it is a Breton who speaks to them of the Zulu war! Young people are crétinisés (made ​​idiots) to be better handled Mad 
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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySat Aug 03, 2013 7:27 am

Or were the regiments named: amaShutu, amaKwenkwe isiBabule during the war, they have participated in no battles? While they were young men?
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PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySat Aug 03, 2013 7:46 am

Zulu regiment amaShutu, amaKwenkwe and isiBabule existed well in 1879 ... Question 

Despite the terrible losses in January 1879, they are listed in no battles, to my knowledge Question 

It is to believe they never existed ...

Moreover it is still the same regiments that may fight, battle after battle, bizarre, because there were many more regiments in the Zulu army as those cited in orders of battle ...

Nobody has ever found it strange Question 
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