WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Dawn! Lt. Col. Pulleine : His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command. Col. Durnford : Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» eggsa site Grave Memorials
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyYesterday at 6:45 am by aussie inkosi

» William Shutt (reg no. 469)
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Nov 25, 2021 8:06 pm by Mark25

» Private Frederick Butler Mounted Infantry
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Nov 25, 2021 6:57 am by rai

» (H. Pilley. Cooks Mte. H.M.S. “Active”.)
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Nov 25, 2021 6:13 am by rai

» John Patrick Seeler
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Nov 25, 2021 5:41 am by rai

» What if Dartnell had returned?
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyWed Nov 24, 2021 1:46 pm by Julian Whybra

» Isandlwana solving the enigma
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyWed Nov 24, 2021 9:10 am by Drummer Boy 14

» Unknown Uniform Zuluwar Era - Pietermaritzburg. Plz help!
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Nov 23, 2021 1:48 pm by 90th

» William Stewart HAMILTON 90th Regiment of Foot (Perthsire Volunteers) Light Infantry
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Nov 18, 2021 5:10 pm by gardner1879

» William Brighton
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Nov 18, 2021 4:04 pm by Julian Whybra

» Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Nov 16, 2021 11:35 am by Julian Whybra

» Private John Lloyd, 1/24th Foot
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Nov 16, 2021 4:27 am by 90th

» Hidden Ground at Isandlwana
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyMon Nov 15, 2021 8:53 pm by aussie inkosi

» I own a Zulu War Period (Replica) 24th Rgmt of Foot Tunic
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyMon Nov 15, 2021 1:21 pm by Lieutenant William D'arcy

» Deserter Notifications
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 9:51 pm by Bill8183

» New Members Welcome.
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 7:44 pm by ADMIN

» Zulu Regimental Commander
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 5:24 pm by John Young

» Col. W. F. D. Cochrane
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 5:19 pm by John Young

» In Affectionate Remembrance of P.C. Stephens
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 1:46 pm by ADMIN

» James Hamer map of iSandlwana
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySun Nov 14, 2021 12:47 pm by ADMIN

» Pte William Leach 2/21st Regiment
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySat Nov 13, 2021 3:17 am by janetn

» And now for something completely different
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySun Nov 07, 2021 11:05 am by Frank Allewell

» Alexandra Mounted Rifles, full biographical details
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySat Nov 06, 2021 4:34 pm by Julian Whybra

» Task Organization 3rd Regiment NNC 21-22 January
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyFri Nov 05, 2021 3:37 pm by Julian Whybra

» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Nov 04, 2021 2:52 pm by Julian Whybra

» Capt. Davey
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Nov 02, 2021 12:15 pm by Julian Whybra

» Videttes flags and signalling
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Nov 02, 2021 4:52 am by Frank Allewell

» Laagering of Wagons at iSandlwana and Laager Commandants
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 10:13 pm by gardner1879

» Coghill Family Vault. Castlehaven. Co Cork Irland
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyMon Nov 01, 2021 10:49 am by ADMIN

» Pte 922 George Edwards (Alias Orchard) and Pte 2744 Charles Moore
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySat Oct 30, 2021 4:55 pm by Bill8183

» I am a happy boy!
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyFri Oct 29, 2021 7:11 pm by Stand to

» Sam's a veteran of the Zulu War
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Oct 26, 2021 8:49 pm by ADMIN

» Zulu War Hero
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Oct 26, 2021 1:46 pm by 90th

» Mr James Gittins 24th Reg 2131 Colour Sergeant
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Oct 26, 2021 1:45 pm by 90th

» Frank Newton, C.M.G.
We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Oct 26, 2021 9:19 am by John Young

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Battle of Ulundi – 1879 – Anglo Zulu War
Top posters
90th
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
littlehand
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
ADMIN
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
1879graves
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
rusteze
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
John
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
aussie inkosi
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
gardner1879
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
John Young
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
90th
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
WeekendWarrior
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
ADMIN
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
rai
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
janetn
We need to know once and for all if ... Bar_leftWe need to know once and for all if ... BarWe need to know once and for all if ... Bar_right 
Most active topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.1
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Police harford Durnford henry Russell john payne spalding Isandlwana martini carbineers Mounted Prince drift james zulu smith williams Franklin Natal George 24th melvill taylor horse Woolfryes
 

 We need to know once and for all if ...

Go down 
2 posters
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest




We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 8:44 am

Hello to All

With historians of the Zulu War, a cat would not find her little ...

1 - after you,the Zulu regiment umHlanga was yes or no to Isandhlwana?
2 - after you, the Zulu regiment Mbubi was yes or no to Isandhlwana?
3 - after you, the Zulu regiment amaShutu was yes or no to Isandhlwana?
4 - after you, the Zulu regiment amaKwenkwe was yes or no to Isandhlwana?
5 - after you,the Zulu regiment isiBabule was yes or no to Isandhlwana and Rorcke's Drift?

soon

Pascal
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8019
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 8:58 am

1) No
2) Yes
3) No
4) No
5) No

RD
uThulwana
iNdlundlo
uDloko
iNdluyengwe

Thats as close as I can get Im afraid
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 10:07 am

This is your Mr. version and it is your right ...

Very well and in this case, or the Zulu regiments were named: amaShutu, Umhlanga, amaKwenkwe isiBabule were during the war,and what battles they participated or rather, what they have served, as they existed well and seems to have participated has no battles ...
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 9:55 am

springbok9

For the Mbubi, they are only mentioned by IK.

But because umSikaba , Nkonkone, uMtulisazwi and unQakamatye regiments were incorporated into other regiments, one can be tempted, in this light, to consider the inclusion of such regiments as the Mbubi, amaShutu, amaKwenke and isiBabule, for similar reasons.

On the other hand, it may be reluctant to include these regiments within any formal list without the reinforce-ment of any first primary (Zulu) or secondary sources...

D.R.Morris's(and others')view that drafts of the umHlanga( Morris,op.cit.,pp.368-370) fought alongside the umCijo nowhere substantiated by a primary source.

(Ransford,op.cit.,p.244.Although Zabange's account does mention the umHlanga,there are serious doubts as to the account's authenticity ).

Ramsford ,Oliver ,' The Cloth',Blackwood's Magazine,vol .308 Jul-Dec 1970,pp.241-247.

The account is described as spurious because Ransford claimed to have found the narrative in an old helmet-case which had belonged to a relative on the staff of the British Resident in Zululand.

In parts there are passages and phrases wich look as if they have been lifted from genuise narratives,on the other hand the narrative as a whole is quite unlike any other genuise account.

In the genuise accounts the narrative is restricted to one man's very limited experience of the battle,like that of a man in crowd.

Zabange however has been everywhere and seen everything,despite even in 1879 being a old man.

Ransford state that " apart from occasional editing,modernisation of spelling and the omission of a few irrelevancies"he has copied the narrative exactly as it was set down originally.

The question is whether in the editing Ransford eked out the narrative with passages suggested by D.R.Morris's book"The Washing of the Spears ",London 1965.

The way the narrative runs is reminiscent in place of Morris's style ,wording ,and version of events.

However it must be said that Parr in his book ,published in 1880,includes the umHlanga in the impi although his source is not given.

(Parr,Captain Henry Hallam,"A sketch of the Kafir and Zulu Wars:Guadana to Isandhlwana ",London 1880,pp.199 and 215.)

Parr had been out with LC on the fateful morning of 22nd January, and apart from interviewing survivors on the British side,obviously gleaned much valuable information from Zulus during and after the remainder of the war.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8019
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 10:40 am

Pascal
There is no evidence to substantiate the presence of uMhlanga at iSandlwana apart from a mention by Parr/Morris that they had been grafted onto an old Chaka regiment. According to his sketch drawing they acted as part of the Uve regiment, he would obviously have got that info from some where. But would you regard the Uve as: " a regiment that had all but disappeared, being represented by a few old men of 78 to 80."
I would suggest that the Uve was a lot more than that. If so then there is a definite discrepancy in Hallam Parrs summation.
If you accept that, then which part of the synopsis do you accept, that they were drafted onto a bunch of old age pensioners or they were drafted onto the Uve. If the second then sure, they could have been part of the left horn or left centre. But there again no other source mentions them in that context. At least not to my knowledge. As for Morris although its often said to his detriment that he wrote TWOTS from Berlin, he did spend time in Natal. Also he did visit Fugitives drift to see the M and C graves and also to see the 'coffin' rock. Its really easy then to speculate that he would, seeing as he would have had to cross his farm, met up with Sighart Bourquin. Again although speculative, its highly possible that SB was the source of information for Morris.
Much as he was the source of much information and motivation for Ian Knight, and as the document you quote is by Ian could we say that the potential font for the placing of the uMhlanga comes from SB?

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:05 pm

Mate

But the regiment uVe is the youngest sent to fight in the battle of Isandhlwana with 650 warriors around 23 years ...

He was at the center of the left horn with to his left, 500 warriors of the uThulwana and to his right, 5600 warriors of the iNgobamakhosi .. .

After IK , at Isandhlwana, there were imBubi but not the regiment called Umhlanga ...Question 

This regiment is part of the body called Mbelebele with a regiment known also as Mbelebele (whose warriors had at minimum 78 years, also they should not present at Isandhlwana ...)

So the bodhttps://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_question.gify called Mbelebele was only represented by the regiment called Umhlanga ...

In general,for example by JW , it is accepted that the warriors of the regiment Umhlanga had 28 years and were attached to the corp Umcityu (regiments Umkandampemvu + Unqakamatye + Umtulisazwi).

So they were in the chest, but at the left or the right of Umcityu corps Question 

And where were the sources Sighart Bourquin Question 

What is obscure error for me is that the regiments incorporated in some corps or regiments present at Isandhlwana, are considered present at Isandhlwana, by inference, and other regiments, also incorporated in some corps or regiments present at Isandhlwana, are not considered to present Isandhlwana scratch 

You must explain to me this, this is too much for me ...

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:11 pm

Mate

I post my answer again, because there is a parasite that is invited ...

But the regiment uVe is the youngest sent to fight in the battle of Isandhlwana with 650 warriors around 23 years ...

He was at the center of the left horn with to his left, 500 warriors of the uThulwana and to his right, 5600 warriors of the iNgobamakhosi .. .

After IK , at Isandhlwana, there were imBubi but not the regiment called Umhlanga ...Question 


This regiment is part of the body called Mbelebele with a regiment known also as Mbelebele (whose warriors had at minimum 78 years, also they should not present at Isandhlwana ...)

So the corps called Mbelebele was only represented by the regiment called Umhlanga ...

In general,for example by JW , it is accepted that the warriors of the regiment Umhlanga had 28 years and were attached to the corp Umcityu (regiments Umkandampemvu + Unqakamatye + Umtulisazwi).

So they were in the chest, but at the left or the right of Umcityu corps Question 

And where were the sources Sighart Bourquin Question 

What is obscure error for me is that the regiments incorporated in some corps or regiments present at Isandhlwana, are considered present at Isandhlwana, by inference, and other regiments, also incorporated in some corps or regiments present at Isandhlwana, are not considered to present Isandhlwana scratch

You must explain to me this, this is too much for me ...

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8019
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:13 pm

Pascal
Hallam Parr very very clearly has them with the Uve.
It depends who you read as to the answer you get read Hallam Parr, his take is different from SB, Morris Ian Knight etc. SB lived his life at Fugitives Drift, his old house is now part of the guest house. He knew intimatly relatives of suvivors and the history of the area. Thats where he sourced his information. Hallam Parr was on the ground and spoke to a lot of people that where there, bottom line is you dont and will never really know. Frustrating I know but thats life.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:33 pm

I do not have your knowledge, once again I'll trust you,JW will be unhappy, therefore also after you ,the 1400 warriors of the regiment Umhlanga (or 1000 warriors after some ), reinforce the 650 warriors of the regiment uVe Question 

For shields it seems to be the same as the indluyengwe regiment , but others say that the white spot was up Question 

I'm going crazy with all its contradictions Sad Sad Mad Mad 

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8019
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:37 pm

Pascal
A famous man once said of isandlwana that it was an enigma wrapped in a mystery wrapped in a triple layer of contradiction.

I think it was an understatement.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:44 pm

Yes alas, and it will go the less you know ...

I meant to Isandhlwana with young white British tourists and a little wargamers , a few days ago, they had never heard of this battle, is it possible:x 
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10386
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 65
Location : Melbourne, Australia

We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: We need to know once and for all if .....   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 2:55 pm

Pascal there would probably be young white British tourists who havent heard of D- Day ! , just as I'm sure there are young white Australians who have probably never heard of The Western Front of WW1 , and even Gallipoli if thats possible !. No 
90th
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptyThu Aug 01, 2013 3:33 pm

What misery it is a Breton who speaks to them of the Zulu war! Young people are crétinisés (made ​​idiots) to be better handled Mad 
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySat Aug 03, 2013 7:27 am

Or were the regiments named: amaShutu, amaKwenkwe isiBabule during the war, they have participated in no battles? While they were young men?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




We need to know once and for all if ... Empty
PostSubject: Re: We need to know once and for all if ...   We need to know once and for all if ... EmptySat Aug 03, 2013 7:46 am

Zulu regiment amaShutu, amaKwenkwe and isiBabule existed well in 1879 ... Question 

Despite the terrible losses in January 1879, they are listed in no battles, to my knowledge Question 

It is to believe they never existed ...

Moreover it is still the same regiments that may fight, battle after battle, bizarre, because there were many more regiments in the Zulu army as those cited in orders of battle ...

Nobody has ever found it strange Question 
Back to top Go down
 
We need to know once and for all if ...
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: ZULU WAR BATTLES-
Jump to: