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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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» One of the lesser-known stories. It took place around the same time as Isandlwana.
Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyToday at 6:22 am by ymob

» NNC Officer List
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» RE: William Jenkins Goodson
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» Philip Bowe 2658/7 Gatling Field Battery 10/7 Brigade Major Owens
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» Lieutenant O'Connell, 60th Rifles. 1880 Isandlwana map.
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» More From FindaGrave website
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 Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!

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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2097
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptySat Oct 26, 2013 10:20 am

Given the debate over Isandula's recent photograph, I thought I'd throw this one into the mix.

I have my own idea as to who the subject of the photograph is, but I welcome anyone else's input.

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Unidentified officer, believed to be 24th Regiment.
John Young Collection

The photograph was taken by T. Cranfield, 115 Grafton St., Dublin.  Thomas Cranfield's studio had the endorsement Photographer & publisher to the Queen in Ireland, his was the studio where the rich and famous went to.  A number of his prints are in well-known national collections.

In another place it was concluded that the photograph was of Captain Frederick Carrington, 1st/24th, but I was never happy with that conclusion.  Having examined photographs of Carrington taken in South Africa circa 1877 held at Brecon, I am adamant it is not Carrington, the hair-line and ears don't match.  Added to this I believe Carrington remained in South Africa after 1879, he was apparently in the U.K. by January 1883.

However, the sitter in this photograph had his photograph taken prior to the 1881 Dress Regulations which added a shoulder strap (epaulette) to the Patrol Jacket.  On closer examination there is also the outline of a medal ribbon on left breast.

As I say I believe I know who the officer is, but I would welcome anyone else's opinion.

JY
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Kenny



Posts : 396
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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptySat Oct 26, 2013 1:51 pm

John

A young Carrington.
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptySat Oct 26, 2013 5:13 pm

Kenny wrote:
John

A young Carrington.
Mister Young,
Maybe Wardell?
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90th

90th

Posts : 10077
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Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Another Mystery Photograph - add a name to the face !   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptySun Oct 27, 2013 6:54 am

Hi John.
I'll have a stab , is it Capt J.J.Harvey 2 / 24th ? .
Cheers 90th.
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyTue Oct 29, 2013 9:26 am

[quote="John Young"]Given the debate over Isandula's recent photograph, I thought I'd throw this one into the mix.

I have my own idea as to who the subject of the photograph is, but I welcome anyone else's input.
.
Bonjour Mister Young,
 
For you, who is this man?
regard
 
Frédéric
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyTue Oct 29, 2013 5:01 pm

Bonsoir Mister Young,

For me he is not:Weallens, Browne, Anstey, Daly, Degacher x2, Godwin Austen x 2, Melvill, Pulleine, Pullen, Bloomfield, Coghill, Porteous, Cavaye, Atkinson, Dyer, Bormhead x2, Griffith, White, Much, Logan, Roche, Spring, D. Williams, Mainwaring, Dunbar, Black, Chamberlin, Harvey, Heaton, Bannister, Curll, Tongue, Mostyn, Rainforth, Younghusband, Hodson, Pope, Roche, Phipps, Penn Symons, Sudgen, Dyson, Glyn, Church and Curll.

I don't think he is Upcher.
You say he is not Carrington.
"Isundula", we need your help, where are you?

Cheers

Frédéric
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyTue Oct 29, 2013 7:03 pm

He's not Reginald Campbell, Brander, William Franklin and Glennie...
Personnaly, i don't know who is he...
Comme on dit en France, "je donne ma langue au chat"! (in English:" i give my tongue to the cat"!)

Cheers

Frédéric
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2097
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Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyTue Oct 29, 2013 9:41 pm


Frédéric,

How about this chap?

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John Young Collection

Like the sitter in the Dublin photograph, he was in Ireland in 1880, he had a single medal ribbon at the time.

If you look at the mystery photo' he has an Imperial the remnants of a beard, his hair shorter than usual as he has been on campaign. Same jowl, as I say just my thoughts.

Any Photoshop experts who can trim out his sideburns?

JY
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyTue Oct 29, 2013 10:22 pm



Mister Young,

You are a hard man...
Your man is a survivor a the zulu war.
(...) in 1880, he had a single medal ribbon at the time".

Your chap is not Edward Browne.
BROWNE doesn'nt looks like him and BROWNE was awarded the VC at Pinetown camp on 22/08/1879 (before 1880).

I will search information on Bromhead brother ("same jowl" / "sideburns") and Symons.
A bientôt.

Frédéric

JY[/quote]
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
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Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyTue Oct 29, 2013 11:37 pm

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Possible!
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyTue Oct 29, 2013 11:55 pm

Not Clements (served in South africa 1875-1881);
Not Moffat (only one medal in his career);
Not Symons (served in India in 1880);
Not Brander (served in South Africa 1/3/1879-19/9/1879 -retired 7/7/1880) / not the "same face";
Not Connolly (only one medal in his career);
Not Godfrey (only one medal in his career);
Not Halliday (only one medal in his career);
Not Birch (only one medal in his career);
Not Halliday (only one medal in his career);
Not LLyod (only one medal in his career);
Not Logan (retired 5/2/1879);
Not Much (only one medal in his career);
Not Rainforth (return dated 3/4/1881 he is recorded as residing at Brecon );
Not Spring (only one medal in his career);
Not Tongue (only one medal in his career);
Not Williams John (only one medal in his career / exchanged to 1st Bn West India Regiment 25/5/1880);
Not Yourstoun (only one medal in his career);
Not Banister (only one medal in his career);
Not Caldwell (only one medal in his career);
Not Chamberlin (only one medal in his career);
Not Church (only one medal in his career / retired 7/7/1880);
Not Dobre (only one medal in his career);
Not Dolben (only one medal in his career);
Not Glennie (only one medal in his career);
Not Mahoney (only one medal in his career);
Not Williams herbert (only one medal in his career);

Your chap is one of them: Moore-Harper, Worlledge, Trower, Supplice, Smyly, O'Donnel, Armitage, d'Aguilar, Moore, Upcher, Campbell, Heaton, Morshead, Palmes, Paton, Harvey, Godwin-Austen Alfred, Hare, Mainwaring, Dunbar, Degacher Henry, Bromhead Charles, Phipps, Curll, Roche, Sugden, Weallens, Scott-Kerr).
Only 28 possibilities!!!!, Cool!!!Idea Very Happy 
In this list, i will research who were in Ireland in 1880.

Cheers.

Frédéric
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Kenny



Posts : 396
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 12:05 am

You can add a further name - Harrisson. There is also John Tigar and John Tompkins.
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

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PostSubject: images   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 12:05 am

Frederic.

The second picture in LH's post looks very much like Bromhead, is it his brother?

Salute 
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Guest



Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 12:14 am

Hmmm, bromhead Suspect looking at the cricket
photo's and earlier..Suspect . unless JY is
teasing. xhosa
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Guest



Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 12:16 am

Charles. Very Happy 
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 12:28 am

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Frederic.

The second picture in LH's post looks very much like Bromhead, is it his brother?

Salute 
Martin,
In thé second photo, it's Gonville Bromhead and not his brother Charles.
Cheers
Frédéric
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
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Location : Lancashire, England.

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PostSubject: images   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 12:32 am

Thanks Frederic.

I thought it looked like him.

Salute 
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 12:32 am

Kenny wrote:
You can add a further name - Harrisson.  There is also John Tigar and John Tompkins.
Thanks Kenny,
Just 31 possibilities
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 12:39 am

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Thanks Frederic.

I thought it looked like him.
Salute 
Martin,
YOU can see under thé 2nd photo, thé name Gonville.
YOU can find a photo of Charles Bromhead in thé " silver" book (lan knight) p. 128.
Cheers.
Frédéric
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 12:46 am

littlehand wrote:
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Possible!
For me, not the same eyes, not the same nose.
Cheers
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 12:52 am

Out of left field I know, but this is who came to my mind.

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Not 24th but KRRC. Redvers Buller.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 1:03 am

rusteze, no way ' reevers ' Neutral 
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 1:05 am

No, it's not him!
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 6:23 pm

Bonsoir Mister Young,
Do your chap win an ashanti medal?
Cheers
Frédéric
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Dave

Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 7:32 pm

littlehand wrote:
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Possible!
Now, the muttons have gone, I would same, one of the same!
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Guest
Guest



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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 8:18 pm

yeah, chin, nose, centre parting
i reckon your right. xhosa
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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 8:55 pm

Frédéric,

No I believe it to be the ribbon of the Victoria Cross.

Regards,

JY
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 9:08 pm

John Young wrote:
Frédéric,

No I believe it to be the ribbon of the Victoria Cross.

Regards,
L



JY
Mister Young,
Thanks for jour answer.
Lord Gifford VC was not in the 24th in 1880.
If YOU think your chap is GONVILLE Bromhead it's a Big surprise for me!!!
Cheers
Frédéric
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 9:17 pm

]
From memory G. Bromhead was in Ireland in 1880(Queen VICTORIA invitation /fish)
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2097
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 9:31 pm

Frédéric,

The penny has dropped...

JY
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 9:44 pm

John Young wrote:
Frédéric,

The penny has dropped...

JY
Yes...
Thank YOU for this exercice, my brain is tired.Very Happy 
Gonville...i have never thought at him...
But we have don't answer to your initial question!
Some members think as you that your chap is effectively G. Bromhead
Have YOU got a little doubt or a Big doubt?
Cheers
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2097
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 9:57 pm

Frédéric,

No I was always happy that it was Gonville Bromhead, however, others held the belief it was Frederick Carrington. I could never see that myself, as the shape of the face didn't quite fit.

Regards,

JY

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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 10:15 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Not so sure now?
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 10:37 pm


Not so sure now?[/quote]

The photo was taken in Ireland in 1880 (John Young)
It seems that Carrington was not in Ireland in 1880.
Carrington: commanded transvaal volunteers against sekukini in 1878_79, and left wing cape mounted rifles 1879-83.
Source:"The historical records of the 24th Régiment (...)" By Paton, Glennie,Symons.
Cheers
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 10:43 pm

Can't see GB at all. Neck is too short and eyes too far apart. Why do we think he is 24th?
Steve
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2583
Join date : 2009-04-24

Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 10:54 pm

"Bromhead was posted to Gibraltar in 1880 and in August was dispatched to India where he remained until March 1881"




Need to know when in 1880 the photo was taken. 
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Guest
Guest



Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 11:00 pm

Bang on..Gonville was handsome.
Fred looked like a camel.bless.
agree  xhosa
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 11:05 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Bang on..Gonville was handsome.
Fred looked like a camel.bless.
agree                        xhosa
Very Happy Very Happy Wink
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyWed Oct 30, 2013 11:39 pm

Somewhere on the forum there is a photograph of a young Bromhead, in a photo of either a football team or cricket. That might be a good comparison.
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Guest
Guest



Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! Empty
PostSubject: Re: Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face!   Another mystery photograph - add a name to the face! EmptyThu Oct 31, 2013 12:00 am

yes. but if you remember the famous
photo of him wearing the peaked
forage cap, with the 24th numeral.
his face stayed constant. its him.
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