Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

old historian

The newspaper reports mentioning the escort party under Sergt Wilson make it clear that the escort brought back prisoners (Zulu from Sihayo's kraal presumably). The time gap allows them to have gone back to Helpmekaar and then on the return journey to Isandhlwana been caught at RD in time for its defence.

Julian Whybra wrote:

Chard1879

Yesterday at 5.50 you posted to me "What list of evidence would that be?"  So, I've posted it for you.

That's frighting. Don't remember writing that?

Old historian

You didn't write it! Chard1879 did!

So if they had delivered the supposed prisoners to Helpmekaar. Why would they be going back to Isandlwana? It says they and the Prisoners were stranded at Rorkes Drift?

You did Old H. Your confused.

They were on their way back to join the battalion. One of them, Roy, became ill and was at the hospital. The others must have been waiting there for a day or two. Before they could continue their journey the post was attacked.

Yes time for my medication? All fast and furious on here.    You wrote it Chard not I ! I think?

Correct. For chard1879.

Julian Whybra wrote:

They were on their way back to join the battalion.  One of them, Roy, became ill and was at the hospital.  The others must have been waiting there for a day or two.  Before they could continue their journey the post was attacked.

Don't worry it's me make allowances.

On their way back to where?

Old H. It's Julian, he's confusing you!   

Chard1879 wrote:

Old H. It's Julian, he's confusing you!   

It's you causing the confusion, not Julian!

old historian
They were on their way back to join their battalion (1/24th) at Isandhlwana.

chard1879
Instead of annoying old historian I thought you might be having fun checking up on all the sources I posted for you trying to find loopholes...

I maybe wrong, but wasn't they G Company so should have been with Rainforth.

Hi
Desmond and David Jenkins were G coy. The others are not known. A general order had been made previously setting up a 'camp police' - presumably Sergt. Wilson and his party were that camp police. The men could have all been from G coy or they could have been a mixture from the all the coys.

Impi says in Kris's book, they were stranded with the prisoners at RD. whats your opinion on this. Or is Kris just trying to fill in the gaps with possibilities!

I thing Julian's is guessing. No one knows Jenkins movements

Old historian
I spoke with Kris on this asking after her source for this but she said she was trying to make a logical a logical assumption based on the evidence THEN available.  Since then, in my book the two reports have been published explaining what happened to the escort party.  The prisoners had long been delivered and disposed of.

Chard1879
I am certainly NOT guessing.  I do not guess.  The evidence is there.  The exploits of the escort party are recorded. Read it for yourself.  Please do not make unevidenced remarks.

Hear the words of the worlds leading authority on the Zulu War. Mr Ian Knight.

"Frustrating as it may be, many an attempt to validate an individual’s participation at Rorke’s Drift is likely to get no further than a brutal truth - that ‘he is not on the rolls"

Admin this would be a good note to end this discussion!

Time for tea!   

Chard1879
And that is a very useful point. Because Jenkins IS on the rolls. Why do you not look at the evidence I posted? What is the matter with you? Do you have a mental block or something? Do you not realize that every time you ignore the facts you make your postings and arguments look weaker and weaker. It does your standing no good, you know.
I admire Knight's work immensely but he is A world authority; not THE world authority. If you know him you'll find that even he would stand by that.
Unless you have something positive to post I think you should desist. I shall no longer respond to your provocative remarks. It's Coventry for you, my lad!

His number is in correct?

Julian Whybra wrote:

old historian

The newspaper reports mentioning the escort party under Sergt Wilson make it clear that the escort brought back prisoners (Zulu from Sihayo's kraal presumably).  The time gap allows them to have gone back to Helpmekaar and then on the return journey to Isandhlwana been caught at RD in time for its defence.

"Whilst this report has often been taken as referring to Zulu prisoners it is probable, given that there had been no armed encounters with the Zulus since the attack on Sihayo’s homestead eight days earlier - before the column had advanced to iSandlwana - that they were in fact Army defaulters. Indeed, David Jenkins’ own military record was by no means unblemished, and it is even possible he was one of those under escort rather than on escort duty"
Ian Knight.

What evidence to you have to show they were Zulu prisoners. ?

The timing can only allow for them to have been prisoners from the Sihayo kraal episode:
It is known that Pte. Desmond (and therefore the rest of the escort) was with the main column between 1st and 6th January because he is mentioned in a letter home (the first page is missing but from the content it is datable to 8th January) by 1-24/1289 Col.-Sergt. William Edwards of E coy, 1/24th, killed at Isandhlwana, who stated that a “man named Desmond belonging to G company got 50 lashes for insubordination.” The attack on Sihayo’s Kraal occurred on 12th January at which a number of Zulus were taken prisoner. Assuming that the escort was sent “to the rear with prisoners” on the 13th/14th this would enable David Jenkins to write home on the 18th January from Helpmekaar. The escort then set out to return to the column. Perhaps, en route, it was escorting sick men from Helpmekaar to the Rorke’s Drift hospital but was obliged to halt at Rorke’s Drift because two of the escort, Ptes. Roy and perhaps Nicholas, had become ill. At any rate they were “in time to join…in the defence of Rorke’s Drift” on 22nd-23rd January. Jenkins’s next letter was dated 28th January from “Zululand” – presumably still at Rorke’s Drift – as he supposed “we will go down to the colony to get re-fitted, as we have lost everything.” His third letter, dated 11th March, stated that he had been at Helpmekaar “this last six weeks” from which it may be inferred that the escort party returned there from Rorke’s Drift on or just before 28th January (in time to write his second letter from there).

impi wrote:

His number is in correct?

Correct impi, DJ's number is on the original rolls INCORRECTLY! Even you do not believe that 1083 Pte Jenkins, KIA Isandhlwana, fought and survived Rorke's Drift.

Julian, don't let Chard wind you up, he is obviously having a laugh! I have read the evidence - and I had to pay for mine, I hope you're not sending it to chard for free, but thanks for signing the book - open-mindedly. In fact, I had an agenda to pick holes in your evidence and reasoning, but I could not. The evidence you present is quite clear. David Jenkins was a RD defender.
I even showed your essay before Xmas, to a year 13 pupil at my school (who has just received an unconditional offer to read history at St John's, Cambridge) and challenged her to read it with a view that David Jenkins was a RD imposter. When she handed the book back to me, she was quite convinced by your work, assuming the whereabouts and fate of all the other 24th Jenkins' was correct.
The only possibility she raised was a point I brought up last week. Do we KNOW for sure 1083 Jenkins was killed at Isandhlwana, and that the number IS indeed a mistake?

Absolutely. Effects recorded for claim by next-of-kin under AGL76 – E/80639/8.

Desmond received fines for drunkenness on 2nd January and 19th January 1879...and "got" 50 lashes....pre 13th January, (according to C/Sgt Edwards). I have not seen any evidence that this sentence was remitted.
So using good old speculation...!! might this be enough to put him in hospital at RD....under guard perhaps...and therefore hard to believe that he would be first choice to form an escort for Zulu prisoners.

Julian Whybra wrote:

The timing can only allow for them to have been prisoners from the Sihayo kraal episode:
It is known that Pte. Desmond (and therefore the rest of the escort) was with the main column between 1st and 6th January because he is mentioned in a letter home (the first page is missing but from the content it is datable to 8th January) by 1-24/1289 Col.-Sergt. William Edwards of E coy, 1/24th, killed at Isandhlwana, who stated that a “man named Desmond belonging to G company got 50 lashes for insubordination.”   The attack on Sihayo’s Kraal occurred on 12th January at which a number of Zulus were taken prisoner.  Assuming that the escort was sent “to the rear with prisoners” on the 13th/14th this would enable David Jenkins to write home on the 18th January from Helpmekaar.  The escort then set out to return to the column.  Perhaps, en route, it was escorting sick men from Helpmekaar to the Rorke’s Drift hospital but was obliged to halt at Rorke’s Drift because two of the escort, Ptes. Roy and perhaps Nicholas, had become ill.  At any rate they were “in time to join…in the defence of Rorke’s Drift” on 22nd-23rd January.  Jenkins’s next letter was dated 28th January from “Zululand” – presumably still at Rorke’s Drift – as he supposed “we will go down to the colony to get re-fitted, as we have lost everything.”  His third letter, dated 11th March, stated that he had been at Helpmekaar “this last six weeks” from which it may be inferred that the escort party returned there from Rorke’s Drift on or just before 28th January (in time to write his second letter from there).

Why would they be taking sick men to the front! Most of those in the escort seem to have been charged for various reasons, Jenkins for desertion on . A few occasions. Why would they put him as a prisoner escort. I starting to think this group were the prisoners and it was them, that was escorted to RD.?

Jenkins never claimed to have been at Rorkes Drift why?

John Young, with your back ground, what do you make of this. This was within a post, posted by David Payne, I must have missed it first time around.

David Payne wrote:

"As a former detective of many years, Adrian Greaves ask the reader to test the following imaginary scenario.

For just a moment, let us turn the story on its head and retrospectively pretend that, because of the killing of several hundred Zulu wounded after the engagement, it was a crime to have been a Rorke’s Drift defender. Let us now put Pte David Jenkins on trial to face the charge. How could he possibly be found guilty on the ‘evidence’ currently being put forward to put him at Rorke’s Drift when the only line of evidence comes from the press of the day, which would clear him of the charge… that amongst the men from the 1st Battalion of the 24th who disembarked were a number of men which includes a soldier with the surname ‘Jenkins’ and the comment after all the names, five in total,….who had been to the rear with prisoners. I submit the case against him would have to be dismissed on the strength of this line alone, especially when it is further supported by C/Sgt Edwards’ statement above, leaving no evidence that puts Pte David Jenkins anywhere near Rorke’s Drift at the material date/time. Therefore, why suggest the same lack of evidence proves he was present? If this scenario cannot pass such a test, there is no test to pass."

These chaps certainly had some luck. Not one wounded.

Desmond,  Private. 
Jenkins, Private. 
Payton, Private. 
Roy, William. awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal
Wilson, Sergeant.

As anyone got any background on the above with reference to punishments ?

Jenkins has no convictions or punishments recorded for the period in question.
His last conviction, prior to the battles, was for leaving his piquet, for which he was imprisoned from August to November 1878.
He was next  in confinement for five days in November 1879, for drunkenness.
So, no question of him being a prisoner in January 1879.
His desertion took place in 1877.

Steve

So roughly two months prior to the Battle!

Chard

Your point is ?

Steve

rusteze wrote:

Jenkins has no convictions or punishments recorded for the period in question.
His last conviction, prior to the battles, was for leaving his piquet, for which he was imprisoned from August to November 1878.
He was next  in confinement for five days in November 1879, for drunkenness.
So, no question of him being a prisoner in January 1879.
His desertion took place in 1877.

Steve

Just out of interest, how many times was this chap admitted to Hospital, and for what treatment?

No hospitalisations recorded.

Steve

Image Originally post by 1879Graves in part one of this discussion. Thought this might be an interesting excercise.

William Roy service paper. Clearly shows he was at Rorkes Drift. Do we have any of the others, service papers that shows them having been in the action at RD

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Originally posted by 1879Graves.

David Jenkins Services papers. No mention of RD. intersting reading.

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I guess Roy gets a mention because of his winning a DCM. A soldiers presence at Rorke's Drift would not, of itself, constitute gallant conduct in the army's eyes, whatever we may now think.

Steve

But it would Normally mention any action he was in! especially as important as Rorkes Drift!

We need to find the following service papers.

Desmond,  Private. 
Payton, Private. 
Wilson, Sergeant.

In my experience, having researched many soldiers records at the NA, they do not list the actions soldiers were involved in unless a medal clasp was earned, simply the theatres in which they served and for what period of time.

Steve

Hi Sas1 .
I think Graves 1879 has mentioned previously that not all those who were at RD had that fact written on their service records .
I've seen records of Soldiers who took part in the battles Nyezane , Gingindlovhu and Khambula also have no record of those actions on their papers .
After all in 1879 it was what they were expected to do , no fuss etc etc , no-one back then would realize the popularity of the war , or Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift for that matter 135 years later . Record keeping back in the Victorian times seems to have been of a lesser importance .
90th   

Still it would be good to see the service papers, of all those supposedly with Jenkins.   

impi
Of course they would not have been taking sick men to the front but they might have been taking them from Helpmekaar to the hospital at RD.
24th
Jenkins did claim to  have been at RD on several occasions.  Read the evidence.
sas1
You will find almost all the RD defenders have no mention of RD in their papers - that wasn't their purpose.  The only reason they will, is if they were wounded, kia, or mentioned in despatches.
Chelmsford
The information in your post is inaccurate.  The evidence does not only come from the press.
Lee
Where did you find that Roy was in E coy?
Desmond got his lashes on 6/8th January (from Williams's letter).

There are no service papers for Desmond, and I have not found/yet to find, anything for Payton. There is no mention of RD in Wilson's papers.
Presumably Reynolds' daily states return of hospital admissions was lost in the fire at RD.
Roy is stated to have been from 'E' Company 1/24th. He also stated that the only other survivor of his company was wounded in the shoulder...so I guess this was John Waters.

Lee
Repeat - where did you find Roy was in E coy?  It's not in his service papers.
All
Most of the men of the 1/24th had fines for drunkenness - that would be no barrier to serving in a 'camp police'.
The notion that Desmond or Jenkins or any of the others in the escort party was actually the prisoner they were escorting does not hold water.
First Desmond received the punishment for his drunkenness on the 2nd (lashes) There was no charge against him warranting being taken back for confinement.
His drunkenness for which he was convicted on the 19th must have occurred at Helpmekaar before the escort's return.
Secondly, the escort was on its way BACK to Isandhlwana from Helpmekaar. Any prisoner would not have been on the return journey.

Lee Stevenson wrote:

There are no service papers for Desmond, and I have not found/yet to find, anything for Payton. There is no mention of RD in Wilson's papers.
Presumably Reynolds' daily states return of hospital admissions was lost in the fire at RD.
Roy is stated to have been from 'E' Company 1/24th. He also stated that the only other survivor of his company was wounded in the shoulder...so I guess this was John Waters.

Old Jenkins seems to have be quite allusive. The name Jenkins appears in a few accounts, but it doesn't say David. None of the others in the party of prisoner escort mentions him.

We have to be serious, someone would  have mentioned , that a prisoner escort party stayed to help in the defence.

Julian's essay possibly adds weight to David Jenkins being there, but it's does accurately put him Rorkes drift. We can all read between the lines, and unfortunately some will agree with Julian's work just because Julian wrote it. News Papers, as reminded by Julian in the past get in wrong!

Legacy Hero's of Rorkes Drift. Vol 7 page 49

In this publication there is no mention of William Roy being involved in prisoner escort duty, Infact he never left RD. he was going to move forward to Isandlwana with the rest of his regiment. But he was confined to Hospital suffering with Malaria and a severe eye problem.

I don't doubt Kris Wheatley's research for a minuite.

For me this takes William Roy out of the picture, and any connection with David Jenkins and the prisoner escort theory!

If David Jenkins was not at RD, then who was the Jenkins that saved Chard's life?

It could not have been the other Jenkins as he was incapacitated in the hospital where he was killed, and it could not have been Watkin Jenkins as he was killed at iSandlwana, so it must have been David Jenkins.

The problem arises through earlier researchers getting their numbers mixed up, David was on the roll all the time, but his number had been entered incorrectly.

David fought alongside his mates at RD, he saved Chard's life, and he did his duty, he earned his place on the roll of honour, and he and the others all deserve our respect.

Absolutely right Mr Cooper.
I am reluctant to reveal the details of Whybra's essay for both copyright reasons and because those too tight to buy it or don't want to be proved wrong, do not deserve to have the information for nowt.
However, in order to have convinced me, Whybra needed to clinically account for, with contemporary primary source evidence, every single possible Jones in both battalions of the 24th on the 22nd and 23rd January. I wanted to see published in black and white, copies of the documentary eveidence to prove that David was the Jenkins at RD.
Did it convince me? Yes it did. Boom Boom!
There IS NO debate as to whether or not DJ was at RD.
He was.
Perhaps this would be a good note on which to end this thread Admin?
People keep bringing up speculation, hypothetical scenarios and out dated information from years ago.
No one has added anything new to this debate since the publication of Studies in the Zulu War II, by Julian Whybra.
As far as I can see, unless anyone can counter the most recent work by JW, the debate is over.

You say Jenkins was incapacitated, yet he was able to crawl through a loop hole from which he was dragged out. So we know he was able to move and no doubt use a rifle. We do not know if he had been outside. Which is possible.

William Roy is a good example. He had Malaria and a severe eye problem, it didn't stop him from fighting.


With reference to William Roy, I'm just trying to work out the theory behind the escort party.