Discovering the Battlefields of the Anglo Zulu War, by Ken Gillings

Hi Ken,
I now have your latest ( titled as above) , in my hands, having taken Kalahari.com  14 days to get it to me. It was worth waiting for.

This work is  Grand!!
It is a  must for AZW fundi's libraries , at all levels, but an essential  field guide for those contemplating a visit to the AZW Battlefields, particularly first timers. The inclusion of GPS  co-ords removes a lot of uncertainty about where it was, and reduces time for the uninitiated blundering around in the boondocks .
Travel directions to the Battlefields  and route descriptions are well written and easy to follow.
The work is easy to read with well spaced text and  it is  illustrated with coloured maps , photos and some cross-sectional diagrams.
The brief overview given by you on the various actions covers well researched  "angles", not normally known.
Splendid!!.
In another post I will comment on  some specifics.

Don't stop there, what is next?

regards

barry

Barry, my apologies for the delay in responding. For some odd reason I missed this post. Glad that you are enjoying Discovering the Battlefields. I believe that the first batch will be on its way to the UK shortly.
What is next? We're relaunching the Battle Book series that was produced for the centenary of the Anglo-Boer War. My contribution (the Battle of the Thukela Heights - now renamed The Relief of Ladysmith) has been expanded upon. They will be launched at the Anglo-Boer War 115th anniversary conference that will take place in Dundee (Talana Museum) from the 20th to the 22nd October 2014. Let me know if yo'd like to see the programme.
Next after that? I've putting the finishing touches to The Official History of the Natal Field Artillery, 1862 - 2000. Hopefully by the end of the year. It has been a 13 year slog...

Ken,

Follow this link to see how much Amazon.co.uk has your book listed at:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Discovering-Battlefields-Anglo-Zulu-War-Gillings/dp/1920143904/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1404069572&sr=8-3&keywords=ken+gillings

And tell your publishers to get their act in gear to prevent craziness like this.

John Y.

Hell's bells - I should have linked my pension fund to the stock at Amazon...!

Ah!!! But that's a signed copy.

Hi Ken,
Good to hear from you.
I would like to take up your offer of a copy of the ABW 115th anniversary programme. I will certainly mark my diary for attendance.
We all look forward to the publication of the other works which you have in the pipeline. Pleas let us know when they go into print.

Kindest regards from a wintery Highveld,

barry

PS; Talking of artillery, do you have any bio on one Captn Frank Giles in the NFA?

Please send me an e-mail to ken.gillings@mweb.co.za and I'll forward the programme, registration form and list of discounted accommodation to you.
Regarding Frank Giles, the only reference I have to a 'Giles' is by Alfred Blamey of the Victoria Mounted Rifles, who was present at the coronation of King Cetshwayo kaMpande at Mlambongwenya on the 1st September 1873. He mentions a Major Giles who was present.

Hi Ken,
Thanks, I will email you shortly.
The Maj James Giles ( ex 14th Hussars) referred to was erstwhile Commandant of Natal Volunteers, preceding Maj John Dartnell in that role, and was Frank Giles's father. Maj James Giles , who was also a  Natal magistrate and was related to the Shepstones in that his daughter married into that family (Percy) .  I know that Captn Frank Giles served in India in the RA, but was more interested if ever he served in the NFA.
Frank lies interred in the Fort Napier military cemetery with his parents.

Kind regards

barry

Hi Dave
WTF ! , my copy is signed !    , dont worry Ken only kidding   
90th  

As it was Ken who wrote the book, I think is cheap!   

Good evening to members of the Forum. 30 Degrees South Publishers have informed me that the first consignments to the UK and USA will be dispatched shortly. Thank you for your patience. Regards, Ken

Ken. Hope your well. Thanks for the up-date!

Steve,

Yes it is King Cetshwayo kaMpande, I've got a copy of that one myself.

It has appeared in a number of works.

John Y.

Les,

You beat me to it, here's mine all the same:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
King Cetshwayo kaMpande
John Young Collection.

John Y.

Ngoza looks awesome in full regalia.

Hey JY, as i posted mine i had to nip out for a while,
not often i beat you to the punch, how about the
hussar in the Hook pic..

rusteze wrote:

Hmm. The reason I query it is because I have this in my contemporary album, clearly labeled "Goza". Intriguing.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve

Bonjour,
There is the same photography in "Zulu victory" by Lock and Quantrill (and in Clammer's book / French translate) with the legend "King Cetshwayo at the time of his coronation in 1873".
Cheers
Frédéric

Good afternoon everyone. My apologies for the delay in responding. I'm not only burning the candle at both ends - I'm burning it in the middle as well.
I don't know if this will work, but I'll try to insert a photo of the site of Mlambongwenya ikhanda (military barracks) where that photograph was probably taken in 1873.
It shows the CO of the Natal Field Artillery (Lt Col Richard Lovell Greene), the Regimental 2 I/C (Major Frank Vincent) and me as the RSM at the time of the 125th anniversary of the Regiment. We had been to see the then KwaZulu Government to suggest that we fire a salute to King Goodwill Zwelithini kaBhekuzulu at the same site where the 17-gun salute was fired with the 2.5-in RBL Amstrong guns (which, incidentally, are in the final stages of restoration at the moment).
Unfortunately it didn't materialise but it would have been a unique occasion.
If it doesn't appear, maybe I can send it to Admin to post. Regards, Ken

Rusteze says:  the top two photos are, to me, the same man (Ngoza). Note his grey flecked beard and high forehead.

it's very disturbing....
Cheers
frédéric

Well done Steve!
I think you are right!!!
Cheers
Frédéric

Hi Les

Where does your extract about Shepstone's Chief Induna come from please?

Steve

Hiya Steve, its in the public domain, i'm more interested in
why you are so convinced that the image of Cetshwayo
which i have treasured for years is in fact Ngoza KaLudada, 
i look forward to reading and see your findings.. the fact that
you seem to have Frederic on board makes it all the more
intriguing, c'mon mate spill the beans..what have you got. 

[quote="xhosa2000"] the fact that
you seem to have Frederic on board makes it all the more
intriguing,

Bonsoir Les,
Please, look at the eyes.
Goza has characteristic eyes.
For me,the eyes are the same on the 2 photographies.
Cetewayo on all the others photographies has not the same eyes.
Don't forget that in the contemporary album of Steve, the photo labeled "Goza".
As Steve says: intriguing...
Maybe, i am too excited by the "discovery" of Steve?
Maybe, it's my imagination.
I have any proof...
Maybe, Steve knows the name of the first owner of his album?

Amitiés.

Frédéric

Les

No beans to spill. I have an original print with a contemporary label "Goza". I believe it is the same person as the KC photo of Ngoza. To my eye he does not resemble the other photos of Cetshwayo for the reasons I have given.

Nice to know your extract is in the public domain but I had hoped for a little more by way of direction as to where!

Frederick apparently has considered the above and agrees! No need to stop treasuring the image, I think it needs a new attribution thats all.

Steve

Steve,

I can see where you are coming from based on your contemporary annotated photograph, the problem is as I found out for myself on the forum not all of these contemporary annotations are correct.

A couple of points, if I may, in the well-known photographs of the inkosi Ngoza kaLudaba and his entourage they are posing on an animal hide, rather than a rug.  The other man - who I believe to be King Cetshwayo kaMpande is seated on a stool which is on a rug or matting, rather than a studio shot I believe that is an outdoor photograph with a backdrop.  However, it is the necklace of Cetshwayo that sways me that he is a man of absolute power, and not someone who was on the losing side in the war of the children.  King Cetshwayo had an equally high forehead when the need took him as in the below photograph taken at the Cape in late 1879/early 1880.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The 1882 full-face photograph that Les has posted that appears in Gibson's book shows marked similarities, in my opinion, to the disputed photograph.

John Y.

John Young wrote:

Steve,

A couple of points, if I may, in the well-known photographs of the inkosi Ngoza kaLudaba and his entourage they are posing on an animal hide, rather than a rug.  The other man - who I believe to be King Cetshwayo kaMpande is seated on a stool which is on a rug or matting, rather than a studio shot I believe that is an outdoor photograph with a backdrop.  However, it is the necklace of Cetshwayo that sways me that he is a man of absolute power, and not someone who was on the losing side in the war of the children.  King Cetshwayo had an equally high forehead when the need took him as in the below photograph taken at the Cape in late 1879/early 1880.

John Y.

Bonsoir Mister Young,
About your points on "the animal hide", "rug" and "stool".
They seem to be important "for the disputed photography", i dont understand why...
Sorry for my ignorance.
Cheers

Frédéric

Bonsoir,
Someone knows who is the woman in the album of Steve? (Ceteweyo wifes ? / Ngoza wifes?)
Cheers
Frédéric

In "the antomy of the zulu war" by Ian Knight, there is a earlier photography of Ngoza (circa 1860).
it seems to me that he is standing on a rug, not a animal hide...

Frédéric,

The answer is simple - consistency. Look at the two photographs opposite to the photograph you refer to, note the hide. What you take as a rug is the ground!

Is he wearing the necklace? No he isn't, that the key in my opinion. That necklace indicates a man of status, was Ngoza a man of status? As I mentioned previously he was on the wrong side in 1856 so hardly.

I will seek the advice of a member of the Royal House for their opinion.

John Y.

See Frédéric, it's not what you know. It's who you know!!!!!

Sorry Steve did not mean to tease you ( well a bit   ) fact
is i value your opinion and that of Frederic to! so when you
posted your opinion on this i took it very seriously.. i do not
intend this to be controversial in any way, but its a fact that
when Shaka built his kingdom it started with a very low base,
it is said as low as 500 souls, as you know his method of 
conquest was to virtually annihilate his enemy's and absorb 
the chosen ones into the fold, my point being this brought 
about an above average amount of inbreeding, which in turn
resulted in definite characteristic's. now this obviously can not
be taken as a rule of thumb because as you will know the Zulu
kings were no different than most other dynastic family's in 
that they made certain the line of succession was by design!.
and they married carefully, brides chosen from the highest in the
land!

I consede that Ngoza and Cetshwayo bear a marked resemblance,
i have been studying your side by sides at intervals most of the
day and now night, Ngoza was of the Qamu and died unexpectedly
in 1869, he was a Natal Zulu! in fact the most important and power-
ful one, his death was of course exploited to the full when it came 
to untangling his legacy..

As JY says the Leopard Claw Necklace was reserved for kings and the
mightiest in the land, that is..Zululand. it is a fact that the British
again showed extreme arrogance and stupidity in not affording these
people the attention they deserved, it was left to people regarded as
ecentrics..Colenso, Stuart, Campbell to attempt to catalog and record
their history, and even as i type this i wonder ' is Steve right ' but i'm
going with my gut instinct that leads me to believe i have been looking
at the last King of the Zulu's.

John Young wrote:

Frédéric,

The answer is simple - consistency.  Look at the two photographs opposite to the photograph you refer to, note the hide.  What you take as a rug is the ground!

Is he wearing the necklace?  No he isn't, that the key in my opinion.  That necklace indicates a man of status, was Ngoza a man of status?  As I mentioned previously he was on the wrong side in 1856 so hardly.

I will seek the advice of a member of the Royal House for their opinion.

John Y.

I haven't forgotten your point on the necklace...
I am (actually) searching photography of warriors with a similar necklace...without success! i have found neklace with "large beads", "piece of bone", carved to resemble leopard's claws, blocks of willow-wood...)
No offense Mister Young, i have many respect for your knowledge.
I ty to understand and learn, that's all!
Bien à vous.
frédéric

[quote="John Young"]Frédéric,

The answer is simple - consistency.  Look at the two photographs opposite to the photograph you refer to, note the hide.  What you take as a rug is the ground!

I have made a mistake on the legend of the photography (not Ngoza but a zulu warrior / circa 1853...)
Sorry

Frederic mon ami, a most important point to know is
again how Politically sophisticated and astute the Zulu
were, and indeed have always been to this present day!
Although Ngoza could be considered powerful in Natal,
to the Zulu he was a traitor and beneath contempt!.

Frédéric,

No offence taken.

Keep looking!

John Y.

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

See Frédéric, it's not what you know. It's who you know!!!!!

Bonsoir,
Impertinence....
Cheers

John

I take your point about the necklace, but I don't know. It will be interesting to hear what the present Royal House think. Just to add to the consideration, here is another photo which I think shows the same rug or matting floor. This time it also shows a posing stand to prevent movement during the exposure (so studio equipment at least). It also appears to me that on the side of the head the subject is wearing the same black ball decoration that Goza/Cetshwayo wears on his forehead.



Steve

John Young wrote:

Frédéric,

No offence taken.

Keep looking!

John Y.

Les and Mister Young,

I think the "battle" on the disputed photography is lost...
But (i hope) with a "good fight" first!! (Mvumbi to HB 19/01/1879)
Cheers

Frederic, i do not presume to post with authority..i read
a bit, i remember a bit, we are all on the same road.
Steve, the title is Theophilus Shepstone and the forging
of Natal, i have mentioned it a few times, Mr Guy is as
thorough and meticulous as i like my historians and 
researchers to be. i thought you surely would have known
from which work i was highlighting you being a fellow
bookaphile. like i said just a good natured tease before.

ps is the figure you posted above vertically challenged?

Les

Thanks for the reference, my library is not as extensive as yours.  As to vertically challenged, I think it is undoubtedly the case.

Steve

The anatomy of the Zulu army by Ian Knight:
p.119
Tokens of authority.
"Various others items denoted rank and status. Leopard claws were used together with large red beads to form a necklace wich only men of the highest status were permitted to wear".

I understand: not only the King.
It seems to me that Dabulamanzi, the half-brother of the King wore necklace with leopard claws without beads (see the sketch above / the same photo / the photo on a horse with Dunn).
As Mister Young says, Ngoza was on the wrong side in 1856.
But (he seems to me that) he was a man of status in the opponents to Cetewayo.
So....
Cheers.

I.E: Less, mon ami, you have a lot of knowledge. So, you can post with authority, no problem with me!. As you say, we are on the same road The study of the AZW is a pleasant and fascinating hobby for me.

Back on topic. Gents please remember I'm not able to monitor the forum 24/7. Some posts that others find offensive may remain on the forum, until I log on. Like most on here I don't work 9-5.

I would appricate if members could leave the images they post on the forum, if they want them removed, let me know and I will remove them. There is no point removing images and leaving a greyed out box saying image deleted. If it continues, i will prevent the member involved from posting images all together.

Admin you started off so well, of course its understood about
the time delay..but why did you have to make the last line
sound like a heavy handed threat? you might end up with no 
images at all..which presents me with a problem!  i once told 
a fellow member ( impi ) comes to mind, that once i had learned
to post images i would! and i feel now that i post far to many..
photobucket has informed me that my free allocation is very
nearly full so i was going to delete a shed load, but your comment
above could cause a person to think of consequences..luckily 
for me, i am not that person..what do you advice.

Oh and Steve, i thought you were 100 percent right in removing,
in the light of that offensive trash! no need to reply mate.

Post the links to the ones you want deleted.

Admin

Just for the sake of clarity, I take it you mean PM you with the links to images I wish to delete? Happy to do that.
However, in the rare circumstance that an image of mine is being abused it may be some hours before you are available to take action - in that case I hope you would agree that the presence of a blank box is a lesser evil than allowing the abuse to continue for that time.

Steve

Hi
I'm still waiting for Ken Gilling's book which I ordered off of Amazon in Nov 13! Is anyone experiencing this problem? Not with other companies, but just Amazon.
Thanks

Plan "B" is to order via 30 Degrees South's website - or iGo Books in Pinetown. That aside, the books are now in the UK and the USA via Casemate.