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» iSandlwana a Zulu account describing the Zulu discovery and battle
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» Rorke's Drift by Those Who Were There
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» The fate of deserters in South Africa
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» Sergeant 1574 Fred G Style / Styles 17th Lancers
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» Sergeant Armstrong 2nd / 3rd 60th Regiment The best shot in the British Army
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» Deserters Eastney Edwards Condon 1st Dragoon Guards Knowland Purnell Simmons Dousben 58th Regiment
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» Major Arthur Grey Hazlerigg 2/21st Regiment
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» Sergeant Major 2322 J Wilkins Private 964 E St Clair Major A F Terry 3/60th Regiment
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» Private 25B/947 James Noot / Noote 2/24th Regiment Mounted Infantry
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» Sergeant 2941 William Johnson 2nd Battalion Coldstream Guards
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» Trooper Borain Natal Carbineers - Isandlwana Casualty
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» Burial of the dead at iSandlwana
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» Departed Heroes W H Drummond, Petras Lafras Uys, Captain Gubbins memorials
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» Private 1561 Henry Fuge 2/24th Regiment
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The Missionaries The Zulus & The British Empire in Southern Africa / Full Documentary.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8398
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 12:22 pm

90th
The first one is indeed the 50th.
The Cochrane is the CDV it was donated to the archives by a Mrs Young. I did check with JY to see if it was any relation before posting. The last one has been used in a number of publications, just thought the members would like to see the original.
More to come.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 1:01 pm

The 50th anniversary generated a lot of controversy in particular from a pretty racist group called White Africa.
Have a look
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This is just the tip of the ice burg but it forced the PMB City council to organise very quickly.

Im not to sure if I should post the rest that came from this gentleman, pretty damned racist.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 1:08 pm

Loving the camp sketch, nice one!
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 3:49 pm

Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 Carbineers_zps305cced4



I like this pic.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 4:13 pm

But the camp is on the wrong side of the mountain...?!
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 4:59 pm

Hiya Julian, i know, i had to photo shop and
reverse it for my scrapbook! i still like it though,
Battles of the Nineteenth Century, Forbes, Henty,
and Griffiths. page 149..1906.
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyTue Jul 22, 2014 5:04 pm

Like this.

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90th

90th


Posts : 10663
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PostSubject: Searching through the dust of time    Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 3:12 am

Excellent work those men !  Joker 
90th
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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves


Posts : 747
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 7:49 am

springbok9 wrote:
And an interesting drawing.
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I think that image belongs to Ron Lock & Peter Quantrill. Posted elsewhere on the forum.
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90th

90th


Posts : 10663
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PostSubject: Searching through the dust of time    Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 7:59 am

MrGreaves I have the coloured print of Lock & Quantrill's from 1999 , it's similar , but not the same .
90th
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 9:30 am

Captain OE Murray was out with the Chelmsfords column and returned to the camp with a herd of captured cattle. He was for a long time not placed at the camp but Maxwell mentioned him in his diary as being there.
Ian Knight had this to say:
What happened to Captain O.E. Murray of the NNC?

Good question! Hamilton Browne of course suggests that Murray was sent back to iSandlwana from Dartnell’s reconnaissance to the Mangeni on the evening of the 21st with two companies of the NNC escorting cattle they had captured during the day. No one else confirms this. It’s possible - although these two companies must surely have reached iSandlwana before the battle, and yet they do not feature in accounts of the fighting. It’s possible that Murray might actually have been with those who, like Avery and Holcroft, returned to the camp in disgust on the night of the 21/22nd, following the false alarms among the NNC. David Jackson speculates that Murray might even have returned to the camp on the 22nd with Captain Gardner, Major Smith and Lt. Griffith. Browne speaks highly of Murray and may simply have been keen to protect a friend’s reputation by inventing a story to legitimise Murray’s return to camp - alternatively, given the systematic collapse of the 3rd NNC from the 21st onwards, he may just have got it wrong. There is just one point, though, which makes me wonder whether there is some truth in the story - there are several references to the uMbonambi ibutho using a herd of cattle to mask their push through the British line at the height of the battle. I’ve often wondered - whose cattle? Cattle the impi had been driving with it, or had rounded up that morning when foraging? Possibly, but it’s a long way to have driven them from their bivouac by that point. Cattle from the camp? More likely, since the transport oxen would have had to graze somewhere, and it has always seemed far more likely to me that they would do so on the grassy slope in front of the camp than in the steep rocky valley behind. Might it just be, though, that they were the cattle recently brought in by Murray’s companies - or is it just a coincidence that these cattle were, after all, lingering close to the track to Mangeni? If so, it poses more questions than it answers, of course, for where did the escorting NNC companies then go? Either way, Murray is usually given on the list of those killed at iSandlwana.

But his widow had to suffer even further at the hands of the British authority.

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And the Government said:
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But it wasn't only Mrs Murray that suffered, look at the other two names that were refused.
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Non of the volunteer force were going to receive anything.

Cheers
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 9:40 am

Springbok
Stafford (sorry, no, it was Maxwell) also mentions Murray (and Pritchard and all his NCOs and cattle) and they are all included in the casualty lists.  Whilst individuals lime Avery could abscond I don't really think a whole coy could.  It may well be that Murray's coy made it back with the cattle shortly before the attack or were still resting when it began and remained in reserve.  On a different thread I posited that they may have been involved in holding up the extreme right horn.
The letter from his wife is extremely interesting.  Plus ca change as Pascal might have said.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 9:55 am

Hi Julian
I have two of Staffords statements neither of which contains a reference to Murray. I do know he made many, which do you refer to?
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Searching through the dust of time    Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 10:20 am

Hi Springbok
Excellent work finding the papers re Virginia Murray's claim for the pension , what an absolute disgrace if she was never given some sort of financial Payment / Payments . I wonder if indeed she did receive some financial restitution later ? . I'm sure she would've tried everyone , and all Govt departments of the period  scratch Shocked 
Cheers 90th
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 10:29 am

I do have some follow up documents and no record of any payments and of course we do know that Corp Scheiss got nothing at all.
Hard old world back in the day

Cheers
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 11:02 am

Springbok
Sorry, it wasn't Stafford, my fault, it was Maxwell, I should have checked first.
Lieut. J. Maxwell 2/3 NNC wrote, "Our coy was ordered to return to camp with the captured cattle, but fortunately for us the next coy (no. 11 Capt Orlando Murray) was substituted and they arrived there the same afternoon.  I say fortunately for us, for had our orders not been countermanded, we no doubt would have met the fate which overtook no. 11 coy the next day, when Capt . Murray and his subaltern Lieut. Pritchard, together with his white sergeant and corporals, were killed."
The original is a typescript. There are many overtypings and I think no. 11 coy should read no. 1 coy although they may have referred to the 2nd bn. coys numerically following on from the 1st bn. to avoid confusion, which would make 11 right.
Previous post corrected re name.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 11:06 am

Yes that's the quote I refered to.  agree 

Cheers
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 11:09 am

But I thought you referred to Hamilton-Browne's work, not Maxwell's.
Apologies if I've got confused.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 11:16 am

A dirty job but somebody has to clean up after a war.
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You tend to bump into all sorts of bits and pieces while delving through the old papers.

Cheers
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Searching through the dust of time    Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 11:40 am

Hi Springbok
It may be fact that Scheiss got nothing at all , then again he was a man who was able to work , although , it was hard to come by , he wasnt like Mrs Murray who had a child to support , she had lost her husband , who was the sole bread winner in the service of the Colonial Govt of the day , Scheiss the poor chap died in 1884 , Mrs Murray I think would've written to everyone in every department seeking a pension , not saying she managed to receive one in the end , she was most likely still sending off letters years after Scheiss had gone . It's a probability she may have done so , or possibly was forced to remarry ? .
I wonder what did eventually come her way ? , Whatever it was , I hope it was all good !  Very Happy Salute 
Cheers 90th  You need to study mo 
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 11:43 am

All I can tell you is that she applied for her husbands backpay but I didn't find any record of her having received it.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 12:08 pm

90th
The other area that the Government were lapse in paying was the claims for replacement of kit lost at iSandlwana. There are many that were just fobbed of.
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Look at the crest on top of the letter.

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Cheers
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Searching through the dust of time    Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 12:44 pm

Hi Springy
I'd love to be searching through those Archives , a lot of the letters have a common theme , it being , those who wrote them being told they need to write to another department ! , seems nothing has changed in the world of ' Red Tape ' ! . Wonder if any finally received what was and should've been owing ? . Like Les I am also enjoying these gems you are producing , think I may spend several days in the Durban Museums next year ! You need to study mo You need to study mo You need to study mo . LOL ( very loud ! )
90th  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 1:25 pm

Shiess, virtually destitute wrote a very worthy letter in fine
copperplate to The Durban Railway Co, seeking employment!
needless to say he was rejected. fine way to treat a true
hero...here's an image of his cross, which thankfully some alert
person found on his body, or it would have ended up on the
bottom of the sea!.

Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 Shiessvc_zps699f512b
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: searching through the dust of time    Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 1:31 pm

Good one Les , I believe it was much later found in the back of a desk drawer possibly at Chatham ? , happy to be corrected , I'm sure someone will have the answer , time for bed for me !  Very Happy 
90th  scratch 
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 3:06 pm

Think you're thinking of the War Dept. Chatham was the Engineers ' shop '  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 5:58 pm

Shiess was dead four months after writing these!.

Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 Shiessvcbio1_zpsbd7c0aa3
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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves


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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyWed Jul 23, 2014 10:41 pm

Do we know what complications he died from?
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Searching through the dust of time    Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 7:14 am

Hi Les
I think it may well have been the War Dept , I know I have the story of it being found , but have no clue which of the books it may be in !  You need to study mo No 
Cheers 90th
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Searching through the dust of time    Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 7:24 am

MrGreaves
Schiess VC , died at sea from complications arising from Malnutrition & Exposure which he contracted while living on the streets of Cape town , he was placed in the care of the R.N who offered him a trip to the UK on the transport ' Serapis ' , the cost of his rations being paid for by a public fund . He was far to ill to survive the trip and as I said complications set in , he died on 14th Dec 1884 , aged 28 , and was buried at sea , just over 1300 K's from St Helena .

Les .
His VC was found in a drawer at the War Office , it was taken to the Army Museum at Sandhurst in 1960 , and when the National Army Museum opened in 1971 it went there , and I think it's still there today ? .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 11:11 am

Hiya Mr Greaves, 90th, good knowledge Gary, i read one
description of him at the time of the defence, a big, tall
muscular bloke with strawberry blond hair, what a sorry
pass to come to such an end! he must have known lots
of hungry day's..people in the 1st world today dont know
their even born. would love a time machine to go back
and feed him some good dinners.
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Lee Stevenson




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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 12:51 pm

The death certificate for "Mr F.C. Schiess, VC," who died aboard the Serapis, states that he died, age 'not known - about 36,' of pneumonia. His occupation being given as 'Late a Volunteer in the Cape Volunteers granted an indulgence passage to England from Port Natal.'

or did he.....?

Extract from The Graphic 2/2/1884

The Duke of Connaught presenting war medals to the 13th Bengal Lancers at Meerut.

"...While inspecting the guard of honour of the East India Railway Volunteers his quick eye detected the Victoria Cross on the breast of one of the men, Mr F.C. Schiess. With that readiness and good feeling so general with members of the Royal Family the Duke at once stepped up to him, and inquired kindly how he had earned that distinction. 'At Rorke's Drift, South Africa,' was the answer..."

Captain Penn Symons 2/24th wrote in his diary that he met Cpl Schiess VC in Allahabad in 1891. Schiess was at that time working in a jewellers shop and, according to Penn Symons, stated that he was planning to go to Australia and had sent his VC on ahead !!

A 'correspondent' writing in the Natal Witness in 1899 asked for information about what became of Schiess VC. One reader replied stating that he could remember reading that Schiess had died in India years before....

I do like a good mystery !!



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90th

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PostSubject: Searching through the dust of time    Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 12:57 pm

Yes Lee another mystery , I'm not big on Mysteries , if I liked them I'd join the police and serve as a Homicide detective  Very Happy 
Open mind time I suppose , as is the case with much of this conflict , or concerning those who took part !  You need to study mo 
Cheers 90th .  Very Happy Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 2:30 pm

It would be good if that was so! although i have
a natural bias against Penn-Symons, but that is
still two post death accounts of him being in India.
agreed..mystery.. here's another one! Cecil D'arcy vc

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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 2:31 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 2:52 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 2:54 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 2:55 pm

xhosa
For info: It's not Penn-Symons. His surname was Symons. His Christian names were William Penn and he liked to be known by his middle name, Penn.
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 3:03 pm

Hiya Julian. many thanks, i have been saying that wrong
for many years.. i wont get it wrong again because of you!.
i read a piece where Winston Churchill was very upset at the
news of his death. " Ahh i see poor Penn Symons has gone".
as i just typed i'm saying it out aloud in winnies voice! i'm
a sad case.
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 3:33 pm

But not a hopeless one!
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 3:50 pm

Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyThu Jul 24, 2014 5:12 pm

And it was pronounced Simmons, not Simons.
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 28, 2014 7:45 am

Two very interesting historical documents.
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 28, 2014 8:15 am

On the topic of The Ammunition Shortage I mentioned an account by Laguba Mbafa that id never heard of.
Below is a newspaper article with the Zulu accounts compiled by Carl Faye. The various accounts, the deserter etc are all mixed together, Lagubas account is part of that repost but I cant separate it.

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Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 28, 2014 9:22 am

springbok
I think you may have made an unwitting error here. I can account for all the quotations in this report. They all come from already-known, identified, and documented sources. There is nothing 'left over' that could belong to a 'Laguba Mbafa'.
I'd gladly be wrong. Which part of the report were you thinking was his and what source have you got that says it is his?
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 28, 2014 9:29 am

Hi Julian
The notation on the box (no8) in the Carl Faye collection attributes a statement to Laguba. But as I said above I have problems trying to separate/identify any parts of it. There is of course the possibility of duplication.

cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 28, 2014 10:53 am

Hi
I see. So it existed but it does not appear to have been used in this NW report of 1928.
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 28, 2014 11:22 am

Hi Julian Im sure it did exist at some point. Inside the box was the name and a reference to this article. The article itself was then run down through the News Paper archives. So for whatever reason Carl Faye seemed to believe that he had used Laguba in the composition of the article. I have run the name through every archive search Ive been able, plus JS and come up blank. So there im afraid it must rest until another pointer turns up.
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 28, 2014 11:33 am

Hi
But might not the note in the box which referred to the article have been related to the other contents of box no. 8? It doesn't have to have referred to ALL the contents of the box.
I've just been through the report again and there really isn't anything in it which isn't attributed elsewhere.
Intriguing....Laguba must still be out there somewhere.
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PostSubject: Re: Searching through the dust of time   Searching through the dust of time - Page 3 EmptyMon Jul 28, 2014 11:39 am

I agree, The note in the box was literally : laguba mBafa - Witness 21st Jan 28.

The contents list on the box was as below, exact.
Newspaper articles by AT Bryant on Zulu history.
An account of the Battle of Isandlwana by Laguba
Mbafa.
Sketch of military attack by the Zulu and list of
regiments.
Report and evidence connected with an enquiry to
determine Usebepu's heir (1900).
I do have the sketch of the military attack, just a general sketch showing the horns, chest reserve etc.
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