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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
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Subject: Civilians in the AZW Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:30 pm
I was wondering whether anyone knew the answer to this question. It's one I've never considered before. There were a number of civilians kia at Isandhlwana (e.g. Mr. Lapparra - Chelmsford's cook, Mr. Popworth, Coghill's servant) and some who survived (e.g. Brickhill). Would they or their next-of-kin be entitled to receive the South Africa Medal in that they were serving in a military capacity at the time?
Frank Allewell
Posts : 7507 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 73 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:40 pm
Hi Julian If one were to go that route then 'Boy Green' would have to be added. "In 1880 it was decided that this 1853 medal should be awarded to all personnel—Colonial volunteers and native levies as well as British regular forces—who had served in any of the campaigns in South Africa between September 1877 and December 1879, namely the Gaika–Galeka War, the Northern Border War, the 1st and 2nd Sekukuni Wars, the Moirosi's Mountain campaign in Basutoland, and the Anglo-Zulu War. A medal bar or clasp was to be attached to the suspender of the medal bearing the date or dates of the year or years in which the recipient had actually served in any of those campaigns. Any members of the military who had been mobilized in Natal but who had not crossed the Tugela River into Zululand, were to receive the medal without a bar.[1] This included Naval shore parties."
No doubt the medal fundies will give fuller answers in due course.
Regards
Julian Whybra
Posts : 2328 Join date : 2011-09-12
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:18 pm
Frank There are several more apart from Boy Green. but these aren't 'colonial volunteers and native levies' These are civilian personnel who happened to be employed by soldiers as servants. I would have thought they were quite a separate category and not in line for any campaign medals. I'd be very grateful to any medal collector or other who knows for certain if they could let me know for certain.
Lee Stevenson
Posts : 54 Join date : 2013-10-29
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:19 pm
William Pearce - civilian servant to Surgeon Major JH Reynolds VC and then later to Civil Surgeon Lewis W Reynolds Received medal and clasp 1877-8-9 The medal being issued on 15/4/1886 - the medal application being signed by JH Reynolds VC
Julian Whybra
Posts : 2328 Join date : 2011-09-12
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:25 pm
Lee Many thanks. Tell me, have you ever heard of Durnford having had a civilian servant by the name of John Hughes?
impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 40
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:40 pm
Didn't Durnford have a few servants "Jabez" being one?
Julian Whybra
Posts : 2328 Join date : 2011-09-12
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:59 pm
Rusteze Thanks. I think that's a definite yes to civilian servants being entitled to medals. Impi Jabez was Jabez Molife who was a trooper in Troop no. 4 NNH and acted as Durnford's interpreter. You'll find his account of Isandhlwana in Studies in the Zulu War 1879 Vol. I.
impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 40
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:14 pm
It's possibly me! But does it not "NO" where it states entitled to medal.
Julian Whybra
Posts : 2328 Join date : 2011-09-12
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:32 pm
Impi It says 'no' under 'entitled to medal without clasp under para. IV'. That's true. But he is entitled to it under 'whether engaged against Zulus 1879'.
impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 40
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:02 pm
barry
Posts : 921 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
Subject: Medal entitlement Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:10 am
Hi JW, That name John Hughes is familiar to me in the AZW context. I will revert once I have where. This thread poses an interesting question. That is , how did the civilian contractors stand opposite medal entitlement. Based on the fact that most of the campaign transport ( fodder for animals, meat supply, water, grain etc ) was executed by armed civilians, with their own wagons, many of whom were killed. The majority of these were Boers too who were professional transport riders. I see the famous Jabez Moliffe's name comes up gain. He fought for the Crown later in the Driefontein Scouts too and excelled himself there many times. To my knowledge, although recommended for decoration , it was never awarded.
regards
barry
Julian Whybra
Posts : 2328 Join date : 2011-09-12
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:02 am
I am also wondering about the process of medal awards, entitlement and claim. How did this happen? Did everyone (soldiers and next-of-kin) have to put in a claim for a medal? Or was this done automatically by a civil servant somewhere especially on behalf of all the 24th's kia? If the latter this would all have happened on the same date? Which date? Looking at the two examples cited above, they are dated very late, presumably here someone would have to claim for them and have a sponsor? I know nothing about this area so all help would be appreciated.
Frank Allewell
Posts : 7507 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 73 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:04 am
Julian during the recent spate of visits to the archives I have been discovering an ever growing list of applicants for medals, some as late as the 1900s. There are one or two mentions of 'appropriate application forms'. In a few instances there are claims by next of kin. Not to sure if this helps or hinders.
Regards
Julian Whybra
Posts : 2328 Join date : 2011-09-12
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:37 am
I may be in danger of answering my own question here but the circumstances appear to be these, dated 1st August 1880:
6. Staff Officers and Special Service Officers will forward their applications through the General Officers under whom they served. 7. Commanding Officers of Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers, and Officers Commanding Regiments of Cavalry and Infantry (Regular Forces), will forward nominal rolls of Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men to the Adjutant-General of the Forces. The names of men, who, except for desertion or misconduct, would have been commended for the medal, are also to be included in the rolls, and in the column of remarks the reasons which have rendered them ineligible are to be stated. All rolls will be made out on foolscap, ruled cross-wise, with a margin of an inch at each side of the fold, so as to admit of ready reference when the sheets are bound. The names will be entered alphabetically, in order of rank. 8. All applications on behalf of Imperial Forces are to be prepared in duplicate, in conformity with the form given in Appendix, and forwarded to the Adjutant-General of the Forces. Horse Guards, War Office, Pall Mall, London.
However this doesn't seem to have prevented applications coming in long afterwards with appropriate military 'sponsors' to claim the award of a medal.
Frank Allewell
Posts : 7507 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 73 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:00 am
A selection of applicants for their medals
DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 746 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1880/1106 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MARY JM HIGGINS. MAKES ENQUIRIES RESPECTING HER BROTHER EDWARD HIGGINS, WHO SERVED THROUGH THE ZULU WAR. STARTING 1880 ENDING 1880 REMARKS M1880/206.
Document 288 of 501 DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 746 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1880/1119 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MRS MR PLANTE. CLAIM AS NEXT OF TIN ESTATE OF HORACE POPE PLANTE, CORPORAL, FRONTIER LIGHT HORSE, KILLED IN ZULU WAR, 28TH MARCH 1879. STARTING 1880 ENDING 1880 REMARKS T1880/269.
Document 289 of 501 DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 772 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1880/3786 PART 1 DESCRIPTION CA JACOBI. MAKING ENQUIRIES RESPECTING EUGEN FAHRENHEIM, WHO IS ALLEGED TO HAVE SERVED IN A VOLUNTEER CORPS DURING THE ZULU WAR. STARTING 1880 ENDING 1880
Document 291 of 501 DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 793 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1881/570 PART 1 DESCRIPTION HJ NUNN. APPLIES FOR MEDAL AND CLASP GRANTED TO THOSE WHO TOOK PART IN LATE ZULU WAR. STARTING 1881 ENDING 1881
Document 292 of 501 DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 800 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1881/1293 PART 1 DESCRIPTION G CORSI: ASKS TO WHOM HE OUGHT TO APPLY FOR THE ZULU WAR MEDAL. STARTING 1881 ENDING 1881
Document 293 of 501 DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 801 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1881/1388 PART 1 DESCRIPTION CAPTAIN STAINBANK. ASKS WHEN THE ZULU WAR MEDALS WILL BE ISSUED TO VOLUNTEERS. STARTING 1881 ENDING 1881 REMARKS V1881/306.
Document 296 of 501 DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 819 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1881/3157 PART 1 DESCRIPTION CMD STEWART, LATE LIEUTENANT FERREIRA'S HORSE. APPLIES FOR ZULU WAR MEDAL ON BEHALF OF TROOPER STAPELY LATE OF HIS CORPS. STARTING 1881 ENDING 1881
Document 297 of 501 DEPOT NAB SR/SN 000/00 SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 831 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1881/4395 PART 1 DESCRIPTION SAM PRESTLEY. INQUIRES WHERE TO RECEIVE THE ZULU WAR MEDAL. HIS PAPERS MAKING APPLICATION FOR IT HAVING BEEN HANDED IN AT PRETORIA. STARTING 1881 ENDING 1881
Document 298 of 501 DEPOT NAB SR/SN 000/00 SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 833 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1881/4516 PART 1 DESCRIPTION H REYNETT. ZULU WAR MEDAL. STARTING 1881 ENDING 1881
Document 299 of 501 DEPOT NAB SR/SN 000/00 SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 833 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1881/4517 PART 1 DESCRIPTION A PEEL. ZULU WAR MEDAL. STARTING 1881 ENDING 1881
Document 300 of 501 DEPOT NAB SR/SN 000/00 SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 833 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1881/4571 PART 1 DESCRIPTION BJ POLKINGHORNE. APPLICATION FOR ZULU WAR MEDAL. STARTING 1881 ENDING 1881
Document 301 of 501 DEPOT NAB SR/SN 000/00 SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 834 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1881/4655 PART 1 DESCRIPTION FRED B FYNNEY. APPLICATION FOR ZULU WAR MEDAL. STARTING 1881 ENDING 1882
Document 303 of 501 DEPOT NAB SR/SN 000/00 SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 841 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1882/302 PART 1 DESCRIPTION HENRY ROCK. APPLIES FOR ZULU WAR MEDAL. STARTING 1882 ENDING 1882 REMARKS V1882/344.
Document 304 of 501 DEPOT NAB SR/SN 000/00 SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 841 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1882/310 PART 1 DESCRIPTION WJ BARRON. APPLIES FOR ZULU WAR MEDAL. STARTING 1882 ENDING 1883 REMARKS H1882/31.
Document 305 of 501 DEPOT NAB SR/SN 000/00 SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 841 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1882/368 PART 1 DESCRIPTION ADAM BEATY. APPLICATION FOR ZULU WAR MEDAL. STARTING 1882 ENDING 1882
Document 307 of 501 DEPOT NAB SR/SN 000/00 SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 842 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1882/480 PART 1 DESCRIPTION ZULU WAR MEDAL FOR HARRY A REID. STARTING 1882 ENDING 1882
Document 311 of 501 DEPOT NAB SR/SN 000/00 SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 865 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1882/2741 PART 1 DESCRIPTION JB OGILVY. ASKS THAT HIS ZULU WAR MEDAL MAY BE SENT TO HIM. STARTING 1882 ENDING 1882 REMARKS V1882/779.
Document 313 of 501 DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 868 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1882/3008 PART 1 DESCRIPTION FANNY E WHITE. CLAIMS ZULU WAR MEDAL ON BEHALF OF HER SON MH WHITE, LATE TROOPER, NATAL MOUNTED POLICE. STARTING 1882 ENDING 1882 REMARKS V1882/861.
Document 314 of 501 DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 869 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1882/3126 PART 1 DESCRIPTION THOMAS SINCLAIR. APPLIES FOR ZULU WAR MEDAL. STARTING 1882 ENDING 1882 REMARKS V1882/891.
Document 315 of 501 DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 869 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1882/3127 PART 1 DESCRIPTION MM GANDOEFE, LATE CORPORAL 2ND BATTALION DURBAN NATIVE CONTINGENT. APPLIES FOR ZULU WAR MEDAL. STARTING 1882
Frank Allewell
Posts : 7507 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 73 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Civilians in the AZW Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:06 am
DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 994 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1884/275 PART 1 DESCRIPTION LIST OF CLAIMANTS TO ZULU WAR MEDALS FOR WHOM MEDALS HAVE NOT BEEN RECEIVED. STARTING 1884 ENDING 1884 REMARKS PLACED WITH CSO1884/5179.
Then there seems to have been a search by the government to identify any outstanding claims
DEPOT NAB SOURCE CSO TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 1004 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 1885/624 PART 1 DESCRIPTION J FRED SCHROEDER. APPLIES FOR ZULU WAR MEDAL IN ACCORDANCE WITH ADVERTISEMENT IN GOVERNMENT GAZETTE. STARTING 1885 ENDING 1885 REMARKS V1885/121.
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