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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope

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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 22, 2015 12:35 pm

Here's another early shot of the grave markers taken from the opposite direction to JY's. The stone cross is visible and I think the iron cross is side-on to its left. There is another cross further towards the right and what looks like a set of sheer legs in front of the largest cairn near the centre (presumably to lift some of the rocks). If you look closely at the iron cross in JY's picture it looks as though it has a stone or wooden main leg?

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Steve
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Tim Needham

Tim Needham

Posts : 218
Join date : 2011-10-18

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 22, 2015 8:35 pm

Steve,

Many thanks - another fascinating photo of the cemetery, showing that a handful of other graves appear to have been individually marked; unfortunately it seems that the identities of those interred beneath have been lost as these markers have weathered, collapsed or been removed.

Frank,

At first I thought that the simple iron cross there today may have been erected to replace the fanged one at some point - however I've just come across a copy of a news report covering the centenary commemorations in 1979 & there is a shot showing both crosses.

Regards,

Tim
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySat Aug 22, 2015 8:50 pm

Hi Tim
Look forward to seeing that. I wonder if its the same photo/series that 90th owns? Maybe he can also shed some light.
Regards
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aussie inkosi



Posts : 135
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 55
Location : MELBOURNE

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 12:55 am

Hi Steve

Thanks for that photo its great is that the Colonial Cemetry at Isandlwana ? and is that the Nqutu ridge in the back round
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 6:17 am

Morning Aussie
It is the Colonial Burial Area but looking in the opposite direction. The range in the background is the Hlazakazi leading down the plain.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 6:31 am

Im probably stepping on somebodies toes with this one, so in advance I apologise if Im infringing,

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Tim
The simpler cross is visible in this photo and Im pretty sure that John Young will be able to date the 'Butterfly' collector pictured.

Cheers
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2133
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 6:50 am

Frank,

That's 'The Queen's Cross' expedition of 1880.  Henry Stabb & Commandant Bowker are the two Europeans in the photograph, also there should Be Jabez Molife.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7591
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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 6:56 am

Morning John
Have you managed to date your earlier photo with the wagons?
The fact that the slimline cross was in place in 1880 is interesting. Does that put the 'wagons' photo as late 79 early 80?

Regards
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aussie inkosi



Posts : 135
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Age : 55
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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 7:01 am

Thanks mate great photo

i would love your opinion on my post the missing five hours yesterday and yours to 90th

So how far from the Colonial cemetry was Pope buried its a shame that cross marking the spot no longer there

Also been reading on Maceleroy the last paragraph of page 216 of For God Queen and Colony it broke my heart have you any info on him mate
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 7:11 am

Hi Aussie
There was a proposal at one point to move Macleroys remains to PMB but his dad objected and wrote to the provincial authority requesting it remain buried on the side of the Fugitives Trail. I will dig out the letters for you and post.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 7:21 am

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John Young

John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 7:35 am

Frank,

George MacLeroy is buried next to his father in PMB. His mother had George Jr.'s body recovered from Isandlwana in one of the final acts she did before leaving Natal for England in 1881/2.

I annotated George's sister's diary for the period of 1877-82 for the family a few years back, and can confirm the body was interred in the Commercial Street cemetery in PMB.

I presented a lecture on George MacLeroy entitled 'When the Son of a Banker met the Son of a King' a couple of years back which tied in George's story with that of Prince Dabulamanzi. As both families have struck up a close friendship.

I would put the photograph with the wagon post the butterfly-collectors photograph, as the photographer responsible for the wagon photograph post-dates the other photographer.

John Y.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 7:46 am

Hi John
I do recall we had that discussion some time back, senility sneaking in again Im afraid.
Still trying to draw a timeline using those photos showing the cross.

Cheers
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aussie inkosi



Posts : 135
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Age : 55
Location : MELBOURNE

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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 EmptySun Aug 23, 2015 8:54 am

John Young wrote:
Frank,

George MacLeroy is buried next to his father in PMB.  His mother had George Jr.'s body recovered from Isandlwana in one of the final acts she did before leaving Natal for England in 1881/2.  

I annotated George's sister's diary for the period of 1877-82 for the family a few years back, and can confirm the body was interred in the Commercial Street cemetery in PMB.  

I presented a lecture on George MacLeroy entitled 'When the Son of a Banker met the Son of a King' a couple of years back which tied in George's story with that of Prince Dabulamanzi.  As both families have struck up a close friendship.

I would put the photograph with the wagon post the butterfly-collectors photograph, as the photographer responsible for the wagon photograph post-dates the other photographer.

John Y.

Thanks John yes i visited his grave site on the 9th of Janaurary last year i have been told recently the Head stone has been replaced seeing the old one was vandalized i am hoping someone could post the new headstone

thanks again mate
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PostSubject: Re: Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope   Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope - Page 2 Empty

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