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» Lieut.-Col. Edward Denman Cropper
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» Now May Men Weep: Isandlwana: A Story From The Zulu War. By Mark Hobson
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» 57th Regiment at the battle of Gingindlovu
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptyThu Nov 06, 2014 2:05 pm

Any Ideas Question

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7666
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptyThu Nov 06, 2014 2:28 pm

American?
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2872
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptyThu Nov 06, 2014 3:22 pm

US Army

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Steve
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90th

90th

Posts : 10178
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Mystery Button    Mystery Button EmptyThu Nov 06, 2014 11:42 pm

Certainly American to me . I havent had time to read Steve's post Shocked

90th Salute
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptyFri Nov 07, 2014 1:22 am

Well, it does look very American, however, J.R. Gaunt was an English firm originally from Birmingham, Warwickshire, and later London.

They made buttons for the military and other none military uniform buttons, I can still remember that most of our railway uniform buttons were made by J.R. Gaunt, and they also made many different badges, both military and none military, including the 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' Totem badges that are nowadays sought after by railway collectors, they sell for all sorts of daft prices, hell, and to think I used to give them to the train spotters that used to come to our old engine shed, blast, I could have made a fortune today, darn it! Shocked
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90th

90th

Posts : 10178
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Mystery Button    Mystery Button EmptyFri Nov 07, 2014 1:42 am

Hi Martin
J.R. Gaunt possibly made buttons for international forces etc etc ? . Hope your well .
Cheers 90th Salute
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Chard1879

Chard1879

Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptyFri Nov 07, 2014 8:31 am

What date would that have been!
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2872
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptyFri Nov 07, 2014 1:00 pm

Gaunt sold buttons all over the world. Here's a little potted history. The US Army pattern was still the same in WW2.

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Steve
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptyFri Nov 07, 2014 8:51 pm

Thanks for replies!

The button was found, by our Metal Detector friend, on one of the Battlefields in South Africa.
No doubt lost during WW2 agree
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2872
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptyFri Nov 07, 2014 9:25 pm

Interesting. Apparently there were some American volunteers fighting with the Boers during the 2nd Boer War, but I don't imagine they wore US uniform.

Steve
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90th

90th

Posts : 10178
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Mystery Button    Mystery Button EmptyFri Nov 07, 2014 10:24 pm

Yes Littlehand , our metal detecting friend , wonder what Ian Knight will say when I pull mine out of my backpack and start assembling it ! agree agree . Kwa-Zulu Natal would / will be a lot lighter once I'd / I've finished ! LOL Very Happy Very Happy Shocked Shocked No
Cheers 90th agree
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2175
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptyFri Nov 07, 2014 11:59 pm

Just to throw this one into the mix, during the 1999 survey of iSandlwana an American Army button dating from the 19th Century was discovered.

John Y.

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7666
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptySat Nov 08, 2014 5:49 am

John Young wrote:
Just to throw this one into the mix, during the 1999 survey of iSandlwana an American Army button dating from the 19th Century was discovered.

John Y.


As was a modern 9mm bullet a .32 bullet and an 1879 chamber pot. Plus lots of detrimus.
Just to really frighten you, as an experiment I wrote a couple of notes, fountain pen on old note paper and semi buried them. That was around 1995. I retrieved one 6 months later and a second two years later. All done as an experiment but in retrospect its frightening to think what interpretation could have been drawn if they were discovered by someone else.
By the way the notes all contained the phrase: " It were Chelmsford what done it." Very Happy

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7666
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptySat Nov 08, 2014 5:53 am

90th
Don't worry Ian was there in 1999 when extensive use was made of metal detectors. Next time your there ask him to show you area 1 and 7, could change your view of the battle lines.

Cheers
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Lee Stevenson



Posts : 54
Join date : 2013-10-29

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptySat Nov 08, 2014 10:27 am

Just to add to the mystery, whilst visiting Khambula with Ron Lock, we were approached by a group of very young Zulu children armed with a bag of bits and bobs 'dug' up from the battlefield - cartridge cases, spent rounds and odd belt buckle etc. In amongst which was one of those US army buttons.
I'm wondering whether there might have been Civil War surplus greatcoats, or the like, sold off to other countries during the period?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7666
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptySat Nov 08, 2014 12:09 pm

Similar to the two post Office buttons I was offered at iSandlwana

Cheers
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90th

90th

Posts : 10178
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Mystery Button    Mystery Button EmptySat Nov 08, 2014 12:13 pm

Hi Lee
I think that makes a lot of sense ! . Possibly some Colonial troops may have even fought in the Civil War ? . Or possibly in the US Army at a stage after the Civil War , it's all possible ! , isnt it ? .
Cheers 90th scratch
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2872
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptySat Nov 08, 2014 1:20 pm

I like the idea of re-used uniform. You see plenty of photos of Zulus wearing bits of old military kit, which we assume to be British. But not necessarily so.

Steve
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2175
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Mystery Button   Mystery Button EmptySat Nov 08, 2014 6:10 pm

One of the suggestions that I made to Dr. Pollard at the N.A.M., was the owner of the button found at iSandlwana may well have served in the American-Indian Wars and had kept it as a memento.

George H. Browne alleged that he served against the Lakota.

William Barton of N.N.H. also fought against Indians, according to The Times.

Just a thought.

John Y.
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