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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2594
Join date : 2009-04-24

Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptySun Dec 21, 2014 9:43 pm

Look at the last order issued. That's gives you the answer. You are as always evading the question. You haven't show e anything, that shows Durnford was ordered to protect LC. The truth is you can't.
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat


Posts : 94
Join date : 2009-02-13

Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptySun Dec 21, 2014 10:21 pm

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the Zulus had attacked LC and his column whist they were marching out to the Mangeni falls. It would have been an even bigger Zulu victory. A strung out column on the march would have been slaughtered and they may well have killed LC himself.  This realization must have weighed heavily on Durnford when he decided to leave the camp. Durnford was doing what he was supposed to do. Puelline was in charge of the camp. Durnford was to support LC.
The loss is the fault of LC and Peulline not Durnford.


Last edited by durnfordthescapegoat on Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptySun Dec 21, 2014 10:46 pm

Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 StV
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptySun Dec 21, 2014 10:49 pm

Hiya dtsg, like your style, and i agree. Very Happy
                                           xhosa
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impi

impi


Posts : 2308
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptySun Dec 21, 2014 11:26 pm

durnfordthescapegoat wrote:
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the Zulus had attacked LC and his column whist they were marching out to the Mangeni falls. It would have been an even bigger Zulu victory. A strung out column on the march would have been slaughtered and they may well have killed LC himself.  This realization must have weighed heavily on Durnford when he decided to leave the camp. Durnford was doing what he was supposed to do. Puelline was in charge of the camp. Durnford was to support LC.
The loss is the fault of LC and Peulline not Durnford.

Good point, and has been cover on the forum before. Just a pity Durnford was going in the opposite direction to where LC was. But then again considering the amount of stores at Isandlwana it was the better target. Wasn't it.
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90th

90th


Posts : 10468
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Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 Empty
PostSubject: DURNFORD WAS HE CAPABLE 2    Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptySun Dec 21, 2014 11:27 pm

Hi xHosa
Nice pic , where did it come from ? . Merry Christmas . It's a bit different nowadays , I'm positive I took photo's from nearly the same place ! agree
Cheers 90th Merry Christmas Merry Christmas
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptySun Dec 21, 2014 11:49 pm

Hiya 90th, thanks, its from A.W.Lees's Charles Johnson
of Zululand 1930..pity its not in colour..yeah you was 
all over that gaff.. xhosa  Very Happy  Salute
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Ray63

Ray63


Posts : 706
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptySun Dec 21, 2014 11:51 pm

Interesting photo, what are those buildings.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: DURNFORD WAS HE CAPABLE 2    Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 12:17 am

Hi xHosa
I'll keep an eye out for that book , cant remember seeing it before ? . Salute
cheers 90th You need to study mo Merry Christmas
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 12:21 am

Hiya ray. its St Augustine's Mission Station. 
                                   cheers xhosa
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8219
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 3:56 am

Xhosa
St Augustins is a few Kilometers away on the road to Nqutu, I think you mean St Vincents?
90th
Your future hotel is up below the ridge to the right.

Cheers
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat


Posts : 94
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 5:16 am

impi wrote:
durnfordthescapegoat wrote:
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the Zulus had attacked LC and his column whist they were marching out to the Mangeni falls. It would have been an even bigger Zulu victory. A strung out column on the march would have been slaughtered and they may well have killed LC himself.  This realization must have weighed heavily on Durnford when he decided to leave the camp. Durnford was doing what he was supposed to do. Puelline was in charge of the camp. Durnford was to support LC.
The loss is the fault of LC and Peulline not Durnford.

Good point, and has been cover on the forum before. Just a pity Durnford was going in the opposite direction to where LC was. But then again considering the amount of stores at Isandlwana it was the better target. Wasn't it.

Durnford moved out to support LC
He realized there was a major ZUlu force in the area and was concerned about LC being taken whilst strung out on the march. A reasonabel assumption based on the facts and his orders to support LC.
Not sure what stores you are referring to.
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat


Posts : 94
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 5:33 am

The mere fact that here we all are over one century after the event and countless books and articles still debating exactly what Hid Lordship meant in the numerous confusing orders he sent that day shows just how incompetent he was as a commander. We pore over the punctuation and the spilt infinitives. See here we cry out that is proof that Durnford was to do this. Not os says some one else. Well can you imagine if we find it all confusing with the benefit of hindsight how the men on the ground must have felt back then. LC split his forces and went off on a wild goose chase. He left a pencil pusher in charge. He ordered hsi only remaining ,mounted force to support him and that is what Durnford did. The result of his Lordship's dispositions was a massacre. The fact that he was removed form command and spent his remaining years on a sort of quasi retirement speaks volumes.
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 5:35 am

xhosa2000 wrote:
Hiya 90th, thanks, its from A.W.Lees's Charles Johnson
of Zululand 1930..pity its not in colour..yeah you was 
all over that gaff.. xhosa  Very Happy  Salute

Charles Johnsons' great grandson is my next door neighbor.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8219
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Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 6:02 am

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St Vincents on the extreme right


Cheers
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6pdr

6pdr


Posts : 1086
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Location : NYC

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 7:19 am

impi wrote:
But then again considering the amount of stores at Isandlwana it was the better target. Wasn't it.

durnfordthescapegoat wrote:
Not sure what stores you are referring to.

Yes Impi, what did you mean by that? There were stores at Rorke's Drift and Helpmakaar. That's why Smith-Dorrien was supposed to return wagons to the former on the day of the attack -- so more could be fetched forward.
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24th

24th


Posts : 1862
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 10:37 am

I would guess he talking about ammuniion!
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Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 10:40 am

Ever decreasing circles.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 1:19 pm

Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 StV-1
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 1:20 pm

Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 Jtext
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 1:21 pm

Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 StAugRD
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 3:17 pm

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The areas involved

cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 3:25 pm

Springbok. ?...        cheers
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 3:56 pm

[quote[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
St Vincents on the extreme right

Cheers[/quote]

Springbok. What was the event inquestion. Loads of people milling around.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 4:00 pm

CTSG
90th is probably more qualified to answer that, I do know he has a series of photos, I think of the same event. It could very well have been the unveiling of the 24th memorial.

Cheers
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 2    Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 6:12 am

Springy / ctsg
I'm fairly certain it's the 50th Anniversary in 1929 . I have some photo's but not that one ? , I'm not home till tomorrow , I'll check the photographs I have . Merry Christmas
Cheers 90th agree
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 10:34 am

Yup. 50th.
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 12:33 pm

durnfordthescapegoat wrote:
The mere fact that here we all are over one century after the event and countless books and articles still debating exactly what Hid Lordship meant in the numerous confusing orders he sent that day shows just how incompetent he was as a commander.  We pore over the punctuation and the spilt infinitives. See here we cry out that is proof that Durnford was to do this. Not os says some one else. Well can you imagine if we find it all confusing with the benefit of hindsight how the men on the ground must have felt back then. LC split his forces and went off on a wild goose chase. He left a pencil  pusher in charge. He ordered hsi only remaining ,mounted force to support him and that is what Durnford did.  The result of his Lordship's dispositions was a massacre.  The fact that he was removed form command and spent his remaining years on a sort of quasi retirement speaks volumes.

DTSG. You say
The numerous confusing orders sent that day. Which ones were they then?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 5:02 pm

Come on Mr Greaves. Don't hit them with complicated questions like that.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 5:08 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
CTSG
There is nothing in Durnford's original orders which spoke of
"close defence of the camp in accordance with his original orders".

Here we go, another document that no one else as seen apart from JW, that he found in some locked draw, in an old mill down by the riverside. I will asked you to post a copy of the order, you mention. And you will reply either buy my book. Or go to the Achives. Yawn!
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 6:00 pm

CTSG
A trifle unwarranted. I must remind you that it was YOUR post which stated that Durnford should have engaged in a "close defence of the camp in accordance with his original orders".
My reply was simply saying that there is nothing in those orders (of which YOU made mention and are known to all) which speaks of a close defence.
I wrote of no "doc" which I'd seen. I mentioned no order.
Quick to chide and slow to bless STILL! Shame!
Merry Christmas to you too!
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 6:14 pm

Defend the camp. What's so hard about that. Even reading between the lines and in hinesight it's easy enough to understand. Or does your document say defend the surrounding areas of the camp.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 7:11 pm

CTSG

The phrase 'defend the camp' does NOT occur in Durnford's original orders.  It occurs in Pulleine's orders.  You were referring to Durnford's orders and it was on that basis that I replied.
You owe it to the rest of us to be more accurate before posting if your posting is to be worthwhile.

I repeat I have no document.

While we are at it would you mind explaining please which 'other' document you were referring to when you wrote:
"another document that no one else [h]as seen apart from JW, that he found in some locked draw, in an old mill down by the riverside".
I have NEVER made any such claim about a document.  I simply do not do such things.

It's not quite Christmas.  I made no uncalled-for verbal attack on you.  I simply responded to your post.  In a spirit of goodwill there's still time to apologize for your error (of fact and judgement).
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 7:54 pm

CTSG.

Pulleine was to defend the camp, Durnford was to support LC.

What is so hard to understand about that scratch

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 8:18 pm

Rubbish. You have harped on about his defending LC for as longed I care to remember. Re-read the posts and you will see is been cover over and over again. You know and I know Pulleines order were binding on Durnford. When he took command he took it all as a whole.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 8:35 pm

P. "I am sorry you have arrived as you will now take over command"

D. "I WILL NOT BE STAYING HERE"

Can you not understand orders?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 8:40 pm

I will not be staying Very Happy  Then why go through all the hassle of taking command.

When Lord Chelmsford rode out leaving Pulliene in command, the Soldiers stood to in front of the tents - it was safe - it was concentrated - it was not amenable to destruction.
In military jargon , which is what we are talking about Martin, 'in command' is an absolute, not to be qualified with convenient adjectives hand-picked by authors to suit spurious arguments. The senior officer is in command. Durnford arrived at Isandlwana and, after some initial confusion over the GOC's intent had been cleared up, took command of the whole. No ifs, buts or maybes - he was in the camp for an hour and half before launching his foray; he was the senior officer present; he gave orders in the camp; he changed the dispositions of what had formerly been Pulleine's assets; Pulleine handed over to him. All sourced"
CMS
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:03 pm

And by the way Martin, before you launch in to your, old chestnut mode regarding the orders. Your mentor JW told you the same.

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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:06 pm

He had no orders to take command. He would only have been DEEMED to have taken command because he was the senior officer, and after he left, the senior officer would be Pulleine, so it was Pulleine that was in command, not Durnford.

Durnford was in command of his own independent No2 column, the troop movements were mostly his own men because he needed to know what the zulu's that had been seen were doing. By leaving the camp to find out what the zulus that had been reported as heading towards LC were up to, he was indeed following his orders to support LC.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:08 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
And by the way Martin, before you launch in to your, old chestnut mode regarding the orders. Your mentor JW told you the same.

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Read and weep. Your very repetitive in you answers.

For the benefit of the guests to the forum. Click link below.
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As you will see same old same old. With no foundation to back in up.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:14 pm

If anyone wants to read the same old, all they need to do is take a look at your contributions.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:22 pm

Run along and play with your DAN.338 Joker The pointed end. Points at the head!
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:23 pm

No wonder topics get locked with silly comments like yours, grow up man.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:25 pm

Silly comments ! Take alook at the link I posted that contains your contributions. agree Joker
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:26 pm

Your a sad bully ctsg, leave it out and get a life!.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:28 pm

No one asked you to join in this discussion. You just can't help yourself. The saviour of the lesser forum members.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:33 pm

inviting someone to take their own life even
in jest is out of order! i imagine your facial
expression to be like your avatar...when 
your typing your garbage..distasteful..leave 
it out and lets get back on track..  seasons
greetings ctsg.                               xhosa
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:37 pm

ctsg I dont think the forum would be as knowledgable , if , as you call them , the '' lesser '' forum members decided to withdraw or not participate ! . You could have it all to yourself with all '' your mates '' , you know the one's , the shining lights of research etc , what an enlightening and educational forum this would become Very Happy Very Happy . How much cash did you win ?? Joker
90th Rolling Eyes
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:42 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
inviting someone to take their own life even
in jest is out of order! i imagine your facial
expression to be like your avatar...when 
your typing your garbage..distasteful..leave 
it out and lets get back on track..  seasons
greetings ctsg.                               xhosa

Sorry mate, fell of me chair when I saw your responce. My Avatar. You suddenly become a bishop Very Happy

Inviting someone to take their own life.

Come on men, who will stand by me! I guessing, that was some kind of invitation from Durmford to his men to do exactly that. Both at BRP and Isandlwana.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4   Durnford - Durnford was he capable. 4 - Page 7 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 9:47 pm

CTSG.

If you had a brain cell it would be very, very lonely.
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