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Film Zulu Dawn quote: “Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
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 Durnford was he capable.5

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ymob

ymob

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Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 10:47 pm

2nd point
Master Po said to us that the General moves out to the Nangwane valley. Durnford then has CHELMSFORD's future location made apparent to him.

Master PO is prudent; He doesn'nt tell us in his essay where was exactly the Nangwane valley for Durnford?
In the remarkable essay "Isandhlwana and the Durnford's papers" (Studies in the Zulu War I), Mister WHYBRA wrote "CREALOCK's use of Nangwane may have confused matters still further (for DURNFORD)
According to Springbok and Mister Whybra (see post in this threat) this was unusual for him (CREALOCK).

"Grasshopper"
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 10:53 pm

Ray

Ian Knight refers to it on page 330 of Zulu Rising. He says:   "...According to Lt Davies of the Edendale Troop the officers had been given a good account of the morning's excitement by Quartermaster Bullock and a group of Carbineers who had strolled past, probably the same men Brickhill had listened to the sounds of distant gunfire with earlier".

No source reference but others might know.

Steve
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:02 pm

I think there was some confusion, they thought it was coming from LC position,but it was the echo of the firing coming from the otherside of Isandlwana. I will check Brickhill account for better wording.
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:04 pm

Page 2

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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:15 pm

24th Mangeni was where LC was
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:19 pm

Third point
Master PO wrote: "When Colonel Durnford reached the Isandlwana camp it was probable that it was in exactly the state he would have expected, the General had left, and being the first time Durnford had been to that area one would expect that his path to the South East would have been if not accurately pointed out would have been certainly indicated. (Firing and smoke was audible and visible to indicate the area, Brickhill, Davies and Pope all mention it)".

The mysterious author admits implicitly that the reference Nangwane valley is confusing

The order is really confusing.
Julian Whybra wrote:
'As he was instructed to do' - this is indeed a moot point. I pointed out in my Durnford Papers article that the order to Durnford stated that he was 'to march to this camp' and later the phrase 'to move up here (Nangwane valley)' is used by which Crealock meant Mangeni valley. Taken with previous orders i wonder how Durnford interpreted this order upon receipt. Could confusion have arisen in Durnford's mind over where was 'here'? Was 'the camp' the one at Isandhlwana or the new camp on the Mangeni?
Source: Rorke's Drift forum / Post: Durnford: Vilain or hero ? / 30 Janvier 2003)
On this point see also "Isandhlwana and the Durnford papers" by Julian Whybra
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:23 pm

Frederic

I have been looking back at some very old discussions about the Nangwane/ Mangeni confusion.

This post is from a conversation about the subject 10 years ago on the RDVC site. The post is by Keith Smith and he is in conversation with Mike Snook and someone called Julian Whybra (and others). The map KS refers to in his post is Durnford's map now in the NA at Kew. Not only does it not show Nangwane or Mangeni, it shows nothing between Rorke's Drift and Isiphezi.

It is no wonder that nobody knew where anybody was!

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Steve
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:28 pm

I don't think a camp had been set up at Mangeni at the time Durnford arrived at Isandlwana. I not sure but I think the new camp only become apparent when Gardner arrived with the message for Pullenie to pack up camp. Could be wrong!
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:30 pm

rusteze wrote:
Frederic

I have been looking back at some very old discussions about the Nangwane/ Mangeni confusion.

This post is from a conversation about the subject 10 years ago on the RDVC site. The post is by Keith Smith and he is in conversation with Mike Snook and someone called Julian Whybra (and others). The map KS refers to in his post is Durnford's map now in the NA at Kew. Not only does it not show Nangwane or Mangeni, it shows nothing between Rorke's Drift and Isiphezi.

It is no wonder that nobody knew where anybody was!

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Steve
Perhaps Durnford wasn't that good at Map making either!
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:31 pm

Steve,
Please, look at my post, i indicated the source (RD forum : Durnford: Vilain or hero? / 30 janvier 2003 from Julian Whybra)
A similar comment par Mister Whybra is in "Isandhlwana and the Durnford papers"
Cheers.

I am totally agree with you.
If "nobody knew where anybody was", DURNFORD him, he knew?????
Cheers
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:38 pm

Yes Frederic, we are talking about the same set of discussions, 10 years ago!

Steve
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:40 pm

Fourth point:
Master PO wrote:
If indeed Colonel Durnford was intent on protecting the Generals force the decisions made become very strange. He has learned the direction the General travelled in, he has a clear view across the plain, the extreme North partially obscured by Quabe hill and the beginning of the Nyezi range and why would he consider a force of 400 a threat to such a column as the general had with him?"

The last report that Durnford received before leaving the camp was that there were effectively 400 Zulus in front of him.
That this does not mean that DURNFORD believed the report (maybe 400 Zulu, maybe more)

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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:50 pm

Steve,

I have others objections in mind, but that's all for me today, i am going to bed.
Despite my objections (for the "game"), this article is very interesting. I hope "Master Po" join this forum soon, very soon.

Bonne nuit.

Frédéric
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyMon Jan 12, 2015 11:54 pm

Bonne nuit Frederic.

Steve
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old historian2

old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 5:55 am

Who is "Master Po"
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 8:46 am


Fifth point
Master PO wrote: "All and sundry would by mid morning at Isandlwana have known where the general had gone to. The fact that he was to change his position rather drastically during the morning was not and could not have been known to anyone in the Camp until Major Smith and Captain Gardner arrived, that event taking place after the departure of Colonel Durnford".

The author suggests that DURNFORD was unaware of the intention of CHELMSFORD about the moving of the camp the 22 january (I.E: until Captain GARDNER arrived at Isandhlwana).
Really? i have a big doubt on this assumption...


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old historian2

old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 8:53 am

old historian2 wrote:
Who is "Master Po"

Does anyone know?
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 9:11 am

old historian2 wrote:
Who is "Master Po"

Master PO is a fictional character (TV series). A wise respected. An old shaolin monk

Master Po: "Close your eyes. What do you hear?
Young Caine (grasshopper): I hear the water, I hear the birds.
Po: Do you hear your own heartbeat?
Caine: No.
Po: Do you hear the grasshopper which is at your feet?
Caine: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?[8]

Cheers
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old historian2

old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 9:21 am

Well I can't see many taking part in this discussion, if that's the case.!
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 11:20 am

Frederic

Do not worry, I get it.

Master Po is inscrutable and has great wisdom, rather like the author of our essay.

Grasshopper sits at his feet and tries to learn, rather like the rest of us.

OH

It is a joke! David Carradine, Kung Fu in the 70's on the box.

Steve
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 11:25 am

rusteze wrote:
Frederic

Do not worry, I get it.

Master Po is inscrutable and has great wisdom, rather like the author of our essay.

Grasshopper sits at his feet and tries to learn, rather like the rest of us.

OH

It is a joke! David Carradine, Kung Fu in the 70's on the box.

Steve

Bonjour Steve,
Thank you: you get it Very Happy
Cheers

Frédéric
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 11:38 am


No
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 7:26 pm

So Durnford rides into the camp with no intent on staying. Takes command based on military custom, rearranges a few of Pulleines companies. Receives a message, from a man, no one knows dressed in cilivian clothes who says the Zulus are retiring in all directions. Durnford he then leaves the camp to take the fight to the Zulus miles from the camp. Forced to retreat, when it becomes apparent thats slightly more than 400.
Pulleine then has to relocate his men to accomodate Durfords fall back, thus causing Pulleine to disobey the orders he received to defend the camp. The camp was a victim of Durnfords rash and tatical errors, form the moment he arrived at the camp, until the moment he died.
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5    Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 11:09 pm

John maybe you can clarify some of your learned assumptions , who is the man in civilian clothes who no-one knows ? . Pulleine
has to relocate his men ? , ( outside of Pope ? ), who were the others ? , how does this constitute Pulleine was forced to disobey his orders to defend the camp ? . The camp was more a victim of complacency by the headquarters staff , who in fact , left in vastly outnumbered by the attacking force , and if your reply is LC's own words '' I left a 1,000 men here '' , remember there were more natives , camp staff and Colonials than Imperial Soldiers ( happy to be corrected ) . Pulleine had little chance to defend the camp , it's fate was sealed as LC rode off to attack the zulu ! .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyTue Jan 13, 2015 11:39 pm

90th wrote:
John maybe you can clarify some of your learned assumptions , who is the man in civilian clothes who no-one knows ? .  Ask Lieutenant Cochrane Sourced COE

Pulleine has to relocate his men ? , ( outside of Pope ? ), who were the others ? , how does this constitute Pulleine was forced to disobey his orders to defend the camp ? . Pulleine orders were to defend the camp, not defend Durnfords fall back. Most of the men were outside the camp, that's why a order was given to fall back to the camp. To late Zulus were already there.

The camp was more a victim of complacency by the headquarters staff , who in fact , left in vastly outnumbered by the attacking force , and if your reply is LC's own words  '' I left a 1,000 men here '' , remember there were more natives , camp staff and Colonials than Imperial Soldiers ( happy to be corrected ) . No one knew the Zulus were hidden in the valley including Durnford. LC thought Dartnell had found the main Impi. LC was doing what he was sent to do, bringing the Zulu war to an end. And let's be honest, if he hadn't  gone, and Dartnell got killed along with his men, LC would have been accused of not going to his assisitence.

Pulleine had little chance to defend the camp , it's fate was sealed as LC rode off to attack the zulu ! .
90th
When LC rode of nothing was happening, even with the sighting of Zulu' s, accounts say they no one in the camp thought it would be attacked. And it wasn't until Durnford decided to weaken the camp, but hunting down 400 Zulus. We know from accounts that it was Durnfords men, who fired on the Zulus. Which in turn. Started the attack.

In a nutshell

Durnford entered the camp at 10:30 ?  left the camp , around 11:25 On entering the camp he arranged for the watering of horses, etc., despatched his two troops to scout the ridge area, debated the seniority question, assessed his tactical options, eaten lunch, and decided in his ow mind what he thought was the correct course of action and left to accomplish it, relocated two companies of Pulleine's men to piquet a hill, all in under an hour. His parting words to Pulleine were that he expected the 1/24th to support him if he got in to difficulties. Good tatical thinking. Not!
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90th

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PostSubject: DURNFORD WAS HE CAPABLE 5    Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 4:24 am

John most of the men were OUTSIDE the camp because that's where you need to be to defend it ! , you cant defend the camp from within it ! , or do you have a theory how they could've done so ? . The zulus were already in the camp because they came around the back of the mountain ! . Durnford rode out to try and ascertain the position of the zulu army , he found it ! , yet you blame him for starting the battle . If Durnford hadnt ridden out the camp , and the zulu did get to LC and his men and destroy them , Durnford would've been blamed for not leaving the camp ! . You say Durnford weakened the camp by leaving ! .....What , with his 250 men , virtually all a native force !!! Rolling Eyes , LC took well over that number with him , and these basically all being Imperial troops with much firepower ! . Sorry John , I dont think your assumptions hold ! Very Happy Salute
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 8:55 am

90th wrote:
Durnford rode out to try and ascertain the position of the zulu army
Prior to this, you always said. He ride out to protect LCs rear.

The camp. Look at the distances the men were placed. How would you define the camp what area of ground.

How could have Durnford been blamed if LC had been chopped. The distance between LC and Durnford was to great for them to have been of any use to each other.
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90th

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:19 am

Chard one goes with the other , Durnford knew of sightings regarding the zulus , he had heard 400 ( which seems to be a number bandied around ! ) , or who knows , he could've heard there were more ? . He rode off in the direction of the retiring zulu force , he also knew LC was to the right of the plain , he went left , basically putting himself in a position to hopefully see the zulus , and also putting his force in between LC and the supposed '' 400 '' . As you can see he was able to do more than one thing at a time ! . Very Happy
90th
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable 5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:30 am

Chard , Sorry , I'm not to sure what you mean by define the ground ? . If you are referring as to why the troops were so far forward , I've mentioned this several times , it's simply because of the dead ground in front of where the camp would've been .
If Pete can post my photos which show the effect of the dead ground it's far easier for you guys to understand ! . Basically , there is a largish village that today sits in the dead ground , which , from the camp area , or the plain where the tents were pitched , you cant see the village ! , you need to walk out to the firing line position to actually see the village , this is the main reason , and I've always said , thats why the troops were so far forward , this plan of action was no doubt worked out when the camp was in the process of being set up . Also the camp was a massive size , another reason they had to go forward ,
you cant defend a camp fighting from way back behind it ! . I hope this answers what I think you may have asked ? Salute
90th
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:36 am

90th is quite right. The problem arises from the order 'Stay in the camp and defend it'.  It's a tautology.  You cannot do both.  You have to disobey the first part in order to do the second.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 12:08 pm

As Julian says, you must not take literally the idea that defending the camp means staying within its immediate perimeter. Unless it is fortified, like Rorke's Drift, that is the last thing you would do.

The defensive lines set need to take account of the dead ground and fields of fire, as well as guarding against your flanks being turned. The flanks are the key in this instance and the Zulu horns are expressly designed to outflank opponents. As Gary says, the real danger was coming from behind over the saddle. The frontal attack was held for a considerable time, particularly by Durnford in the Donga.

When Chelmsford orders Pulleine to draw in his troops, he does not mean into the camp itself.

Ian Knight makes some interesting references to the deployment of the companies of the 24th.

On page 330 of Zulu Rising he says (when Durnford was discussing with Pulleine what support he might need).

"About this time Pulleine decided to send a company of the 24th up onto the ridge. Although Durnford is usually supposed to have instigated this move, there are several reasons why it might have been Pulleine's alone................ the move was entirely in keeping with Pulleine's orders and the compay could offer little support to Durnford in any case".

Later in the book, on page 384, Knight is talking about the point at which Pulleine ordered Pope's company to move to behind Lonsdale's NNC so as to extend the right of his line.

Knight says "This move is often interpreted as an attempt by Pulleine to honour his committment to support Durnford in his "difficulties" - but perhaps it was not. Even in their new position Pope's men were a long way beyond the effective rifle range necessary to cover Durnford's flank - and given his priority to "defend" the camp Pullein's practical support could amount to little more".

So this simplistic idea that Pulleine was forced to make unwise deployments because of Durnford's action doesn't hold water.

Steve
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 6:27 pm

Julian was not at Isandlwana.

The orders to both Durnford and Pulleine, as I have said before were simplistic. possibly because that's all that needed to be written, based on LC wanting to get moving.

Durnford "move to the camp"
Pulleine "Defend the camp.

Durnford actions were not in accordance with his orders, what he done was done of his own back. The Order does not make allowance for an officer to whom they are addressed, to act in another manner.
When he left the camp, he was disobaying his order. The discussion regarding his actions other than what was in his order, can only be based on speculation, personal observations, by those taking part in the discussion.

The accounts left by survivors, only substantiates his disobaying of his order.

In rank Durnford was the senior officer on the field, regardless of him and Pulleine batting the command of the camp backwards and forwards.

No one can provide evidence that states Durnford, was at liberty to operate on his own,which includes disobaying orders. Any orders or instructions prior to the 22nd Jan 1879 can not be seen as a continuation of prior orders.

On the 22nd the game had changed.
Although it doe not say the word "reinforce " in his order, it was obvious what LC intended Durnford to do. And I think we all know that!
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 7:30 pm

Sorry John. You are not just on thin ice, you have gone straight through it!

It is silly to say that Julian was not at Isandhlwana, nor was Knight or Snook or Jackson or Smith etc. etc. If you dismiss their views because of that, there is no point in discussing this further. If you are saying you know more about the subject than they do, I think you are deluded, but by all means prove it.

So, over to you to deploy something a bit more substantial than you saying it's obvious. And you asserting that earlier orders to Durnford do not count. Because I don't think it is obvious and I say they do count.

What do you say about how far out the camp should have been defended?

What do you think about Knight's views on the 24th companies deployments?

Steve
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 8:00 pm

Steve to make it simple.

If Durnford had obeyed the order sent to him. Then him being made the so called Scapegoat wouldn't exsist.
That title my friend, he brought upon himself.  ( Move to the camp )

I'm not saying I know more than the ones mentioned. But, I look at the basic facts. And I don't make a living by giving my opinion, or dressing up an order that is so simplistic.

I'm more than happy to be corrected, if you could show an audit trail that clearly defines that the orders Durnford received, were continous. ( or are you saying if one likes, it could be read as continuous, with a bit of hindsight and reading between the line, along with some assumptions)

Most of what the authors write on Durnford at Isandlwana are based on the Colenso books.
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 8:14 pm

The order that was found by Jackson. Is it the one that was delivered by Smith Dorrien.

Move to the camp with all the men under you. Words to that effect.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 8:31 pm

John

Thank you for replying.

Durnford's scapegoating didn't work so far as those in authority were concerned. They saw through it pretty quickly.

I am simply not as cynical as you seem to be about the motives of modern authors on this war. I don't believe any of them have made a fortune out of this very specialised subject. They too look at the facts and interpret them just like we all do.

Why I say the orders to Durnford should be seen as continuous is that he cannot ignore what he has already been told by Chelmsford. Come up to the camp means just that, it does not govern his actions after that. The man is a Colonel and is entitled to make decisions in light of circumstances - Chelmsford has said so.

Why do you have a problem with that?

Steve
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 8:39 pm

Okay found it.  Post by DB.

DB wrote:
There has been so much speculation on Durnfords final order, people quoting from newspaper articles and other
officers statments. This is the last order Durnford recieved, nothing more nothing less.

“You are to march to this Camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column. Major Bengough’s battalion is to move to Rorke’s Drift as ordered yesterday. 2/24, artillery & mounted men with the General & Colonel Glyn move off at once to attack a Zulu force about 10 miles distant.
J.N.C.
If Bengough’s battalion has crossed the River at Hands Kraal it is to move up here (Nangwana Valley).”

Found in a draw in the RE barracks Chatham.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:07 pm

rusteze wrote:
John

Thank you for replying.

Durnford's scapegoating didn't work so far as those in authority were concerned. They saw through it pretty quickly.

I am simply not as cynical as you seem to be about the motives of modern authors on this war. I don't believe any of them have made a fortune out of this very specialised subject. They too look at the facts and interpret them just like we all do.

Why I say the orders to Durnford should be seen as continuous is that he cannot ignore what he has already been told by Chelmsford. Come up to the camp means just that, it does not govern his actions after that. The man is a Colonel and is entitled to make decisions in light of circumstances - Chelmsford has said so.

Why do you have a problem with that?

Steve

The scapegoat title only came about because of Colenso and her futile attempt to assinated Lord Chelmsfords reputation. ( Which by the way failed)

You say it should be seen, as continous? Why. I can't see why it can't be understood, that everything changed on the 22nd the moment LC decided to split the column. New orders were sent out, Durnford being among those that received them.

It all get complicated, when people insist on reading the last order in conjunction with the others he received. Part of the Order clearly states "2/24, artillery & mounted men with the General & Colonel Glyn move off at once to attack a Zulu force about 10 miles distant" there is no reference to any of Durnford's prior orders, or any indication that he would be apart of the attacking force.

The order relating to Durnfords part "You are to march to this Camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column"

And here we have "Major Bengough’s battalion is to move to Rorke’s Drift as ordered yesterday" Note this part of the order does refer to a prior order, but that concerns Bengrough.

So how easy would it have been, if they had wanted Durnford to act on prior orders, to have written as per you prior orders. No time at all! So I say again, the sole purpose of Durnford being ordered to the camp was to reinforce it, in the absence of Col Glyn and half the column.


Last edited by John on Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:18 pm

Ulundi wrote:
The order that was found by Jackson. Is it the one that was delivered by Smith Dorrien.

Move to the camp with all the men under you. Words to that effect.


Crealocks Note-Book was found on the Field of Sandlwana Edward Durnford says  “True copy of Statement received by me " from Colonel Crealock on the 18th of May, 1882″. The order is now generally considered to exonerate Durnford from accusations of failing to act on an explicit instruction to take command of the camp. However although not ordered he still took command?. Crealock as far as I know confirmed that the order he sent was the one you have posted above. How it ended up in the the draw is really of no consequence. And the order in question and it's context came to light in 1882. So regardless of Jackson finding it the contents were already known. And it has to be the biggest possibly that Edward Durnford himself put the order in the draw, based on him having access to the RE barracks, or possibly Luchard.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:22 pm

Oh I think Chelmsford's reputation suffered considerably, and it was the Commander in Chief who saw through his attempts to pass the blame.

I think what it boils down to is that you want it to be simple, but the truth is that it is complicated.

You cannot wish away the sequence of orders that Durnford received. Neither can you decide that at the point when Chelmsford split the column we must pretend they had not been sent.

You get closer to the answer when you say there was no indication in Chelmsford's last order as to what he wanted Durnford to do. He could have told Durnford to defend the camp - it would only have taken a minute - but he did not!

Durnford was right to do what he did.

Steve
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:34 pm

rusteze wrote:
Oh I think Chelmsford's reputation suffered considerably, and it was the Commander in Chief who saw through his attempts to pass the blame.

I think what it boils down to is that you want it to be simple, but the truth is that it is complicated.

You cannot wish away the sequence of orders that Durnford received. Neither can you decide that at the point when Chelmsford split the column we must pretend they had not been sent.

You get closer to the answer when you say there was no indication in Chelmsford's last order as to what he wanted Durnford to do. He could have told Durnford to defend the camp - it would only have taken a minute - but he did not!

Durnford was right to do what he did.


Steve

I wouldn't say Chelmsford's reputation suffered considerably. His career maybe. But he was certainly alive after Isandlwana.

I have given my thoughts on why it becomes complicate.

Agree he could have wrote, defend the camp, but when he took command, Pulleines orders, would as we know have been binding on Durnford.
Which based on the army custom senior officer taking command back in the day, is Probaly what LC had intended. Being an Engineer what better person to arrange defences. Just like Lt Chard RD also RE.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:39 pm

Wasn't it CTSG that came up with this theory that E Durnford planted the papers in a drawer at Chatham so they could be discovered 85 years later by Jackson/Whybra?

Personally I think it was Moriarty, and Holmes is on the case!

I'm all for introducing a little humour to the proceedings.

Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:43 pm

Possibly was CTSG. But a good theory.  Anyway I will leave you with this.


"Lord Chelmsford is most famous for having lost the battle of Isandlwana where the British Army was wiped out by the Zulus. When news of this disaster reached England, he was ordered to stand down and be replaced by Lord Wolesley. But the battle of Ulundi occurred before Wolesley arrived, and Chelmsford's reputation was restored, but not his command.
He had four sons, the eldest of whom became Viceroy of India. The photo shows him in the scarlet uniform of a General. He has a red sash on his right shoulder as a holder of the GCB. The badge on his chest is the star of the Royal Victorian Order. His medals include the British, Turkish and Sardinian Crimea medal as well as the Turkish Order of the Medjidie (5th Class).
1827 (31st May) Born
1844 Commissioned into the Rifle Brigade
1845 Served in Canada
1845 Exchanged to the Grenadier Guards as Ensign and Lieutenant
1850 Promoted to Lieutenant and Captain
1852 ADC to Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Lord Eglington
1853-4 ADC to C-in-C in Ireland, Sir Edward Blakeney
1855 Served in Crimea with Grenadier Guards
1855 (July) ADC to Lieut-Gen Markham, commander of 2nd Division.
1855 (Nov.) Deputy AQMG as brevet Major.
1857 Promoted to Captain and Lt-Col
1858 Transferred to 95th Derbyshire Regiment in Indian Mutiny
1861-2 Deputy Adjutant-General in Bombay
1863 Promoted to brevet Colonel
1868 ADC to the Queen
1869-74 Adjutant-General in the East Indies
1874 Commanded forces at Shorncliffe
1877 Commanded a brigade at Aldershot as Brigadier-General
1877 (Mar.) Promoted to Major-General
1878 Appointed commander in South Africa as temporary Lt-General
1878 (July) Ended the Ninth Cape Frontier War
1878 (Oct.) Succeeded his father as 2nd Baron Chelmsford
1878 (Nov.) Made Knight Commander of the Bath (KCB)
1879 (Jan.) Invaded Zululand
1879 (22nd Jan.) Defeated at Isandlwana and relieved of his command
1879 (4th July) Won the Battle of Ulundi then left for England
1879 (Aug.) Made Knight Grand Cross of the Bath (GCB)
1882 Promoted to Lieutenant-General
1884-9 Lieutenant of the Tower of London
1887 Colonel of 4th (West London) Rifle Volunteer Corps
1888 Promoted to General
1898 (30th Jan.) Appointed Colonel of the Sherwood Foresters
1900 (27th Sept.) Appointed Colonel of 2nd Life Guards
1902 Made Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order (GCVO)
1905 (9th April) Died in London at United Services Club while playing billiards."


I will let you have the honour of post Durnford career notes. Don't forget it stopped in 1879.
Take alook at LC 4th July 1879.
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:57 pm

"On 1st January, 1879, Durnford received orders from Lord Chelmsford ordering him to remain at the Middle Drift until the invasion, scheduled for the 11th January, was under way. When Durnford would be expected to co-operate between Pearson's Number 1 Column, which was to cross at the Lower Drift, and Colonel Richard Thomas Glyn's Number 3 Column, which was to ford the Buffalo River at Rorke's Drift"

At what point did Durnford stop co-operating with Pearson's no 1 column?
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 9:59 pm

"Lord Chelmsford is most famous for having lost the battle of Isandhlwana"

You can say that again!

Steve
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 10:02 pm

Ulundi

I don't know without looking it up. Perhaps you could have a go at that?

Steve
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 10:04 pm

I have tried. No joy! Littlehand can you help. agree
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 11:09 pm

Let me give you some facts about the provenance of Crealock's order to Durnford before faction takes over.
Crealock's notebook with the correct version of Durnford's order was found on the field subsequently and returned to Crealock AFTER he'd given his (incorrect) memory-version.
In 1882 Crealock admitted to Durnford's brother what the correct wording was in his notebook.
In 1886 Crealock wrote verbatim to Maj Jekyll for Gen Nicholson at the WO what the correct version was.  That letter subsequently went astray.
Crealock's notebook was subsequently destroyed in a house fire.
David Jackson and I found Crealock's letter to Jekyll/Nicholson (and the reply) in a drawer at Chatham as part of the Durnford Papers (4901-31/9) in 1988.  Our article which included it (and the correct version of Durnford's order in Crealock's own 1886 hand verbatim copied from his notebook, wording commensurate with that given in 1882 to E Durnford) was published in 1990.

We also found the 19th January order to Durnford, Chelmsford's Instructions to Column Commanders, Molife's account, the Henderson maps, and several other interesting bits and pieces.

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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 11:18 pm

I was flicking through the pages of "The History of the Zulu War" Edward Durnford.

"
"Colonel Durnford received the General's order when on an expedition into Natal to obtain waggons, but at once returned to Rorke's Drift, and marched for Isandhlwana. Lieutenant Chard, R.E., who had ridden to camp for orders, "met Colonel Durnford about a quarter of a mile from the camp at the head of his mounted men " about 10.30 A.M., and told him the troops were in column outside the camp, and Zulus showing " on the crest of the distant hills," "several parties" working round so far to the left that he " was afraid they might be going to make a dash.at the Drift."
Chards Report. 
An N.C.O. of the 24th Regiment lent me a field glass, which was a very good one, and I also looked with my own, and could see the enemy moving on the distant hills, and apparently in great force. Large numbers of them moving to my left, until the lion hill of Isandhlwana, on my left as I looked at them, hid them from my view. The idea struck me that they might be moving in the direction between the camp and Rorke's Drift and prevent my getting back, and also they might be going to make a dash at the ponts.


Chard does not mention anything about troops were in column outside the camp. And Chard does say in great force.

He took orders to Major Russell to hurry up with the rocket battery, to detach a company of Sikali men to protect the baggage, and for all to " look out to the left."

So it looks like he left quite a few of his men behind when on route to the camp. So the RB had just walked ten miles from RD to Isandlwan, and then he sends them out to look for Zulus

Colonel Durnford reached the camp, and received all the information Lieut.-Colonel Pulleine could afford, finding the situation to be :—Lonsdale's natives on out­post duty on the hills to the left, the guns in position on the left of the camp, and the infantry under arms. The oxen were driven into camp and—Mr. Brickhill says—tied to the yokes, but not inspanned. Constant reports were coming in from the hills to the left— "The enemy are in force behind the hills." "The enemy are in three columns." " One column is moving to the left rear, and one towards the General." "The enemy are retiring in every direction." The enemy's force was given at 400 to 600.

He fails to mentioned that Durnford took command of the camp.

On hearing these reports, Colonel Durnford sent one troop Natal Native Horse to reinforce his baggage guard; two troops to the hills to the left (under Captains G. Shepstone and Barton)—one to move along the crest of the range, one to search the valley beyond —and determined himself to go out to the front "and •prevent the one column joining the 'impi,' which was supposed at that time to be engaged with the troops under the General;" he asked Lieut.-Colonel Pulleine for two companies of the 24th, to which Colonel Pulleine replied, "that two companies could ill be spared, but that if Colonel Durnford ordered them, of course they should go." On consideration, Colonel Durnford decided only to take his own men,[17] and moved out with his remaining two troops Natal Native Horse, followed by Major Russell's rocket battery, with its escort of a company of Native Contingent, under Captain Nourse.

Not true. Melville reminded Durnford of Pulleine orders to defend the camp. That's why the Compaines didn't go.




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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.5   Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 EmptyWed Jan 14, 2015 11:29 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Let me give you some facts about the provenance of Crealock's order to Durnford before faction takes over.
Crealock's notebook with the correct version of Durnford's order was found on the field subsequently and returned to Crealock AFTER he'd given his (incorrect) memory-version.
In 1882 Crealock admitted to Durnford's brother what the correct wording was in his notebook.
In 1886 Crealock wrote verbatim to Maj Jekyll for Gen Nicholson at the WO what the correct version was.  That letter subsequently went astray.
Crealock's notebook was subsequently destroyed in a house fire.
David Jackson and I found Crealock's letter to Jekyll/Nicholson (and the reply) in a drawer at Chatham as part of the Durnford Papers (4901-31/9) in 1988.  Our article which included it (and the correct version of Durnford's order in Crealock's own 1886 hand verbatim copied from his notebook, wording commensurate with that given in 1882 to E Durnford) was published in 1990.

We also found the 19th January order to Durnford, Chelmsford's Instructions to Column Commanders, Molife's account, the Henderson maps, and several other interesting bits and pieces.


So it's not the actual order that was found in the draw . It's in the form of a letter to Jekyll / Nicholson.
How do we know Crealock didnt lie, he has been accused of being one of instigators of the cover up he can't be trusted. And how convenient the original was lost in a house fire.
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Durnford was he capable.5 - Page 12 Empty
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